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Some People... (rant!)

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Before you tell YBH to gain weight we should consider she said she is 5'3' and 116 lbs

according to NIH her BMI is 20.5 which is in the Normal weight category

Underweight = <18.5
Normal weight = 18.5-24.9
Overweight = 25-29.9
Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater

http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/

I've never said anything to YBH. I also never said anything about 5'3" and 116lbs, other than the fact that it seems to me that any "healthy" person *should* gain some weight between 16 and 32. To me, that's just a no-brainer. But I'm not a doctor. And I don't care how much she weighs, or how healthy she is. This topic is not about YBH, no matter how much she would LIKE it to be.

I stand by my statement that a good chunk of the human population would die off if the world were suddenly vegan. It doesn't matter how healthy a proper vegetarian diet is if the majority of vegetarians don't follow one.

Also, I'd like to address that the "benefits" of a vegetarian diet are being weighed against a generall unhealthy lifestyle. Proper diet and exercise, and an active lifestyle is beneficial to a healthy life, regardless of the components of the "healthy diet". A healthy diet is balanced nutritionally and calorically. The contents of that diet(meaning meat or no meat) is not nearly as important as the balance of that diet. And the lifestyle choices people make outside of diet are FAR more impactive that those that involve the types of food we eat(such as exercise).
 
I can't believe anyone truely believes a vegetarian diet leads to higher rates of mortality-really people make google your friend today. Soy and tofu have more protein than meat and almost no fat so saying lack of protein is an issue is not an educated statement that information is more than readily available.

Healthy oils like flax seed and foods like avocado, nuts, and olives also offer both protein and healthy fats.

Humans absorb protein easier from tofu and soy opposed to meat proteins because our bodies can break them down quicker and thus more of this protein is synthesized by the body and used more efficiently- again use a little google today if you don't believe this. Or look at baby formulas because many babies can not break down and digest regular formula which is why their switched to soy by their pediatricians- milk based proteins are rough on the immature body.

Iron can be taken orally so again why would their be a problem with obtaining this on a vegetarian diet. Brocoli and plenty of other foods that are non meat based also offer proper amounts.

Unhealthy vegetarians only occur when that vegetarian is not consuming enough fats which we need in healthy doses, but vitamin intake if anything far surpasses the avaerage meat eaters diet.

I eat meat and always will because I like the taste, but I know a diet with less meat is healthier, leads to lower cancer rates, lower cholesterol, less heart problems, healthier body weight, and overall provides more energy and efficient uses of vitamins and minerals.
 
That IS one of the unfortunate things about public forums, but we should all realize that while heated debates occur, no one is intentionally singling out individuals. Well...ok, it does happen from time to time. :p

This is an interesting thread to me, and I've learned a lot. I still like meat, that's not about to change, but it shouldn't matter to anyone else.
 
How old are you? How is it "healthy" to maintain the same body we4ight from early teens to early 30s? Your bone density *should* be increasing. Your musculature *should* be developing. Your body mass *should* be maturing. Bones and muscles weigh a lot. They develop in the mid to late teenage years and into your 20s. You, as a human being, aer supposed to gain weight during this maturation process...

You said this to YBH, indicating that there was something wrong with her not having gained weight during her adult years. And what I said is that her weight is in the normal category. Just because many people struggle to maintain a healthy body weight as they age, that does not mean that YBH is unhealthy for having maintained hers. If you are going to tell someone their weight or lack of weight gain is unhealthy you should provide some information to back that up with.

In terms of bone density it is true you reach your peak bone mass during your first 3 decades of life, but that does not necessarily mean that she would need to gain weight after her teenage years in order to properly accomplish this. Here are the calcium recommendations regarding bone health/growth, from my previous source p 415

"Because obtaining enough calcium during growth helps to ensure that the skeleton will be strong and dense, recommendations have been set high at 1300 milligrams daily for adolescents up to the age of 18 years. Between the ages of 19 - 50, recommendations are lowered to 1000 milligrams a day; for later life recommendations are raised again to 1200 milligrams a day the bone loss that tends to occur later in life." p 415

So from the ages of 19 -50 there are the lowest RDI, so obviously that is not the time when most bone mass is built.

Additionally there are many foods that actually provide better bioavailability (the amount that our body's actually absorb from the foods we eat) of calcium than dairy which is only 30%. Cauliflower, watercress, brussel sprouts, rutabaga, kale, mustard greens, bok choy, broccoli, and turnip greens are all examples of food that that a 50% or greater absorption rate. p 417
 
Humans absorb protein easier from tofu and soy opposed to meat proteins because our bodies can break them down quicker and thus more of this protein is synthesized by the body and used more efficiently- .

I think you mean digest and not absorb, but other than that you are still assuming that all protein is equal. In fact, we don't nee "protein" - we need amino acids. Amino acids are the monomers that make up the complex proteins. We can convert nonessential amino acids from others, but we MUST eat essential amino acids because we can't make them. We get them in our diet or we develop deficiency diseases. Plain and simple.

We need amino acids in certain proportions, and MEAT is more similar to use than plants. Deer are less efficient than puma because puma eat meat while deer eat grass. The similarity of the "prey" to the "predator" is what determines the similarity of the amino acid proportion. Want to be the most efficient that you can be? Eat Soylent Green since the amino acid proportions would be the most similar to yours.

The idea that plants are better is an opion - one that I do not believe the facts support very strongly. The idea that meat has a better proportion of amino acids (while defining "better" as being the most similar to ours) is a fact. This fact supports my opinion that a healthier diet is one with meat in it.

Of course, humans have bred meat rto be fatter and fatter since that tastes better to most people. Many of our breeds of cattle and pigs is UNHEALTHY due to the high fat content. All meat isn't equal just like all plants aren't equal. Free range beef like longhors (thius is from memory - I might be making a mistake on the breed) is a less fat breed, and would be better for us. Me? I say screw it and eat more wild ganme. THAT is the healthiest meat for us since we evolved eating it (in general - and this last statement IS obviously a mix of facts and opinion).
 
Hacked this off YBH's post from way early on..

That grain could be used for human consumption.

Humm.. No if I read that post correct and the ones prior to that, it sounds like you felt that shipping that excess grain over to Africa would help those kids... I don't remember the CBC Show I was tuned to, but they definantly pointed out that it is a lot more cost efficient and a lot less food hoarding, if they sent money and actually supported the local growers, who in turn improved their property and created more usable land for the local grains and vegatables..

In case you have no clue what the CBC, here is a link http://www.cbc.ca/entertainment/ ... To me they at least seem to be a little more centered than most news organizations in North America..

Regards... Tim of T and J
 
they definantly pointed out that it is a lot more cost efficient and a lot less food hoarding, if they sent money and actually supported the local growers, who in turn improved their property and created more usable land for the local grains and vegatables..
[/QUOTE]

May I recommend http://www.heifer.org/ to those who are hoping to help struggling/hungry families and their communities. They provide, livestock, training, and trees to needy families to help them be able to get food and to help them build a livelihood for themselves and their family. They also require that the recipients pass along the gift of offspring to other in need so in the end they are able to help many families from one donation.
 
I just ate some crispy fried chicken skin...yummy- if soy meat tasted like this though I'd still go veggie for the health benefits:)
 
I can't believe anyone truely believes a vegetarian diet leads to higher rates of mortality-really people make google your friend today. Soy and tofu have more protein than meat and almost no fat so saying lack of protein is an issue is not an educated statement that information is more than readily available.
Read this--http://www.becomehealthynow.com/article/soy/316/
This will explain to you why soy, in it's natural state is NOT as healthy as you would like to think, and it describes the extensive processes necessary to make it consumable and beneficial by humans. Interesting...

Healthy oils like flax seed and foods like avocado, nuts, and olives also offer both protein and healthy fats.
Part of a healthy diet, with or without meat...

Humans absorb protein easier from tofu and soy opposed to meat proteins because our bodies can break them down quicker and thus more of this protein is synthesized by the body and used more efficiently- again use a little google today if you don't believe this. Or look at baby formulas because many babies can not break down and digest regular formula which is why their switched to soy by their pediatricians- milk based proteins are rough on the immature body.
Tofu and soy products are processed. I like to eat "real" food instead of processed by-products, and man-made supplements. I can find venison, beef, poultry, fish and LOADS of other valuable and viable fat and protein sources in the wild, kill one, gut it, and eat it. Show me a tofu tree. Just one. Not a soy bean...a tofu tree. Remember the toxins, "antinutrients", and limited digestability of raw soy beans that you read about in the article above? Not a good idea to pick and eat a raw soy bean, IMO...

And I refuse to debate with you regarding the benefits of "Mother's Milk" vs. processed formulas. There is a biological reason why mammals produce milk for their infants. I don't buy that chemical laden, heavily processed bean juice is better for a mammalian infant than it's mother's own milk. Deficiencies such as lactose intolerance, and many others that cause improper digestion from the infant aside, breast feeding is FAR more beneficial.

Iron can be taken orally so again why would their be a problem with obtaining this on a vegetarian diet. Brocoli and plenty of other foods that are non meat based also offer proper amounts.
Oral supplements. Not part of a natural diet, they are a medicinally engineered product that replaces nutrients lost in the absence of a balanced diet.

Unhealthy vegetarians only occur when that vegetarian is not consuming enough fats which we need in healthy doses, but vitamin intake if anything far surpasses the avaerage meat eaters diet.
Vitamin supplementation is what I mentioned earlier. Vitamin supplements are not needed in a healthy, balanced, omnivorous diet. The fact that most "healthy" vegetarians use these additional, NOT natural supplements to complete the balance they are losing by eliminating specific foods from their diet shows in and of itself that a vegan/vegetarian diet, in the majority of situations, is lacking vital nutrients. That's the point I'm trying to make. They take these supplements because without these man-made medicinal supplements...they are not going to be healthy. Pretty much my initial point...

I eat meat and always will because I like the taste, but I know a diet with less meat is healthier, leads to lower cancer rates, lower cholesterol, less heart problems, healthier body weight, and overall provides more energy and efficient uses of vitamins and minerals.
It's all about balance. If I were to eat a strictly carnivorous diet, I would need to take just as many, if not more, supplements and man-made, processed "foods" in order to be healthy. That's the point. Human beings are OMNIVOROUS. We are biological designed to eat and digest nutrition from a wide variety of plant and animal sources. This is what we have evolved to do over the last hundred thousand years or so. Eliminating major components of this omnivorous diet results in lower nutrition.

Vegetarians and vegans supplement this by eating Tofu and soy products and taking supplements that are not a natural part of the human diet. Eating stricftly fruits, vegetables, nuts, and beans *may* be a healthy choice for *some* individuals. However, the majority of the population would not thrive under those conditions, and would require man-made, processed sources to balance those missing nutritional values.

It's about balance and variety. Being "healthy" is a lifestyle choice, not a diet. I can eat the most nutritionally balanced, vegan diet ever known to exist, and if I'm a lazy slob that never exercises, I won't be healthy. Same thing with a meat-heavy diet, or equally balanced omnivorous diet. Being "healthy" involves a LOT more than simply not eating meat or dairy products... And a vegan diet is simply NOT inherantly more healthy to an omnivorous species of animal...which humans are.
 
You said this to YBH, indicating that there was something wrong with her not having gained weight during her adult years. And what I said is that her weight is in the normal category. Just because many people struggle to maintain a healthy body weight as they age, that does not mean that YBH is unhealthy for having maintained hers. If you are going to tell someone their weight or lack of weight gain is unhealthy you should provide some information to back that up with.
The information to back that up is the fact that your bone density increases as you finish puberty. So does your muscle density. This normally causes weight gain. Maybe not a lot...but weight gain. Being the exact same weight at 16 and at 32 does not seem healthy, IMO(which I stated then and now...my opinion). I never said that 116lbs at 5' 3" tall was unhealthy. I said 90lbs at 5'6" tall is unhealthy...and it is. If YBH and her doctor are happy with her health, it's none of my concern. My opinion is that not having any gain at all in that time frame is unhealthy. The fact of the matter is that some weight gain at this time is not only normal but to be expected.

In terms of bone density it is true you reach your peak bone mass during your first 3 decades of life, but that does not necessarily mean that she would need to gain weight after her teenage years in order to properly accomplish this. Here are the calcium recommendations regarding bone health/growth, from my previous source p 415

"Because obtaining enough calcium during growth helps to ensure that the skeleton will be strong and dense, recommendations have been set high at 1300 milligrams daily for adolescents up to the age of 18 years. Between the ages of 19 - 50, recommendations are lowered to 1000 milligrams a day; for later life recommendations are raised again to 1200 milligrams a day the bone loss that tends to occur later in life." p 415

So from the ages of 19 -50 there are the lowest RDI, so obviously that is not the time when most bone mass is built.
No, you're right. Not everyone DOES gain weight in their late teens to account for increased bone and muscle mass densities. It's uncommon...but not unheard of. And it may not be inherantly unhealthy for YBH, specifically. That's why it being unhealthy is my opinion, and it being different than the normal growth progression for human beings is the fact.

And...the recomended amount of calcium intake has very little to do with the average amount of growth and weight gain that an average human being goes through at the end of puberty, during final maturation...

Additionally there are many foods that actually provide better bioavailability (the amount that our body's actually absorb from the foods we eat) of calcium than dairy which is only 30%. Cauliflower, watercress, brussel sprouts, rutabaga, kale, mustard greens, bok choy, broccoli, and turnip greens are all examples of food that that a 50% or greater absorption rate. p 417
And...all of those foods should be part of a healthy, balanced diet...with or without meat. That does NOT make a vegan diet inherantly more healthy or an omnivorous diet inherantly less healthy. Again...balance is the key, couple with healthy lifestyle choices.
 
I said 90lbs at 5'6" tall is unhealthy...and it is.
That's roughly my height and weight, but it's due to a muscular disease. I would say that it's overall not a good weight for that height, but it's kind of unfair to say with so much certainty that it's unhealthy. Some people can not control there physiological features, no matter how much they try. I try to constantly eat foods to gain weight (mainly because I NEED to keep some weight on), but it's damn near impossible for me to gain weight, no matter how hard I try.
I'm fairly physically active (not athletic due to my condition, but I do get what I consider to be good exercise), and I don't smoke or drink. I do eat red meat, sometimes often, but it's really in the best interest of my health (again, I NEED to gain weight). I don't do too much sugar, caffeine, etc... because I feel like those are unhealthy in excess, but with moderation I feel fine having it.

I have been the victim (YES the victim) of many people outright or privately casting judgment on me for my weight. And I'll tell you... it sucks. Who the hell is anyone to approach and criticize me, simply for something I can not control. But I do try to take control of my health, and given the cards I was dealt, I feel like I'm in excellent health.
 
The information to back that up is the fact that your bone density increases as you finish puberty. So does your muscle density. This normally causes weight gain. Maybe not a lot...but weight gain. Being the exact same weight at 16 and at 32 does not seem healthy, IMO(which I stated then and now...my opinion). I never said that 116lbs at 5' 3" tall was unhealthy. I said 90lbs at 5'6" tall is unhealthy...and it is. If YBH and her doctor are happy with her health, it's none of my concern. My opinion is that not having any gain at all in that time frame is unhealthy. The fact of the matter is that some weight gain at this time is not only normal but to be expected.


No, you're right. Not everyone DOES gain weight in their late teens to account for increased bone and muscle mass densities. It's uncommon...but not unheard of. And it may not be inherantly unhealthy for YBH, specifically. That's why it being unhealthy is my opinion, and it being different than the normal growth progression for human beings is the fact.

And...the recomended amount of calcium intake has very little to do with the average amount of growth and weight gain that an average human being goes through at the end of puberty, during final maturation...


And...all of those foods should be part of a healthy, balanced diet...with or without meat. That does NOT make a vegan diet inherantly more healthy or an omnivorous diet inherantly less healthy. Again...balance is the key, couple with healthy lifestyle choices.


Here is the growth chart for women/girls
http://pediatrics.about.com/library/growth_charts/ngirlstwo.htm

Please notice how after about 14-16 the growth levels off.

And the recommendations for Calcium as well as the bioavailability of calcium in certain foods certainly does relate to and refute the argument, that YBH's bone density is somehow suffering due to her diet and lack of adult weight gain.

And for the record I did not ever claim that a vegan or vegetarian diet is inherently more healthy. Just that it is a balanced/complete/adequate diet. That would not cause mass die off among the worlds population if for some reason it was suddenly implemented by everyone.
 
That's roughly my height and weight, but it's due to a muscular disease. I would say that it's overall not a good weight for that height, but it's kind of unfair to say with so much certainty that it's unhealthy. Some people can not control there physiological features, no matter how much they try. I try to constantly eat foods to gain weight (mainly because I NEED to keep some weight on), but it's damn near impossible for me to gain weight, no matter how hard I try.
I'm fairly physically active (not athletic due to my condition, but I do get what I consider to be good exercise), and I don't smoke or drink. I do eat red meat, sometimes often, but it's really in the best interest of my health (again, I NEED to gain weight). I don't do too much sugar, caffeine, etc... because I feel like those are unhealthy in excess, but with moderation I feel fine having it.
It's still nhealthy. I don't hold it against you, or anyone else for that matter, as the body weight of other people isn't something I concern myself with. Your height/weight is due to a disease. Through no fault of your own...you are unhealthy. That's not something to be ashamed of or ridiculed for, especially cconsidering your personal situation, and I never meant to imply that "unhealthy" was in any way a derogatory remark against any person. But it doesn'tr change the facvt that those are not normal, healthy body proportions. Absolutely, there are instances where it cannot be controlled. But it still isn't "healthy".

I really don't mean to offend you or make you feel insulted or slighted. I was merely making the point that a 5'6" adult, under normal conditions, would weigh more than 90lbs.

I have been the victim (YES the victim) of many people outright or privately casting judgment on me for my weight. And I'll tell you... it sucks. Who the hell is anyone to approach and criticize me, simply for something I can not control. But I do try to take control of my health, and given the cards I was dealt, I feel like I'm in excellent health.
I feel for you. Really I do. People are insensitive, mean, and generally aren't very good at minding their own business. I never meant it as an insult, merely an illustration...
 
Here is the growth chart for women/girls
http://pediatrics.about.com/library/growth_charts/ngirlstwo.htm

Please notice how after about 14-16 the growth levels off.

And the recommendations for Calcium as well as the bioavailability of calcium in certain foods certainly does relate to and refute the argument, that YBH's bone density is somehow suffering due to her diet and lack of adult weight gain.
I never made the statement, or even the implication, that YBH was "unhealthy" or suffering from ANY deficiencies. I ONLY stated that it is abnormal for a human being to have absolutely no weight gain between 16 and 32. That is a true statement. There are many reasons why someone might not gain weight during that time frame. *Most* of those reasons involve some sort of disease, deficiency, or malnutrition. Certainly not all of them...but most of them.

I never called into question YBH's health. I stated that in my opinion, a growth rate of ZERO between mid-adolescence and adulthood does not seem like a healthy growth rate. I've never met YBH, never spoken to her in person, and have no idea what her physicality is like. That doesn't mean that zero weight gain between 16 and 32 is "normal".

Certainly you aren't arguing that her experience is the normal experience, and should be how everyone grows. Certainly you don't mean to make that implication. YBH seems to be some sort of enigma in that regard...but absolutely NOT "the norm"...

And for the record I did not ever claim that a vegan or vegetarian diet is inherently more healthy. Just that it is a balanced/complete/adequate diet. That would not cause mass die off among the worlds population if for some reason it was suddenly implemented by everyone.
No...you touted "the benefits". Of course...the actual benefits were never stated...just that it was "beneficial". To whom and how...I've yet to figure out. And absolutely the implications have been made and even stated that vegetarian/veganism is "more healthy" than a meat-inclusive diet. Perhaps you, personally, didn't make those statements. But they were made...in this topic...

It was also argued that a HEALTHY vegan diet could be balanced and wholly nutritional without supplements. I've never known anyone to accomplish this, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

The only claims that I have made regarding a vegan diet is that every vegan and vegetarian I have known throughout my life has been unhealthy. The only claims I made regarding YBH growth rate is that it isn't normal. Both of those statements are 100% accurate. And neither of them is an insult to anyone.

Go figure...:shrugs::sidestep:
 
well I did gain 25 lbs with each of my 4 pregnancies ....but it just alsways fell off. Ive been the same weight since I was about 15. I can't help it...It's just where my body is comfortable. I don't watch my weight or anything and it is within healthy range. Im sorry if my veganisim upsets people.....it's just who I am.

Im also sorry if I offended anyone....I think I got upset and posted in haste. I think everyone here is great, so please forgive me if I came off rude.

I now have to walk away from this thread....*I* feel Im being unfairly judged. Im sorry, it's just how I feel.
Ok, back to my tofu ;-) haha just kidding I had stuffed peppers for dinner.
 
And just so that people that don't click the link dno't get confused...

What the chart actually shows is that there is a HUGE spike in a female's growth rate up until the age of 16. After that it slows down...but continues to trend upwards at a slower rate until the age of 20. That's as high as the chart grows, but it absolutely shows a very distinct, albeit slower than puberty, continuation of growth and gain until the age of 20.

It's a nice chart, and very readily proves my point that it is NOT normal for a person to have ZERO growth between 16 and 32. Thanks for the help...
 
And just so that people that don't click the link dno't get confused...

What the chart actually shows is that there is a HUGE spike in a female's growth rate up until the age of 16. After that it slows down...but continues to trend upwards at a slower rate until the age of 20. That's as high as the chart grows, but it absolutely shows a very distinct, albeit slower than puberty, continuation of growth and gain until the age of 20.

It's a nice chart, and very readily proves my point that it is NOT normal for a person to have ZERO growth between 16 and 32. Thanks for the help...

Ive also been the same height. All of the dr.s Ive seen have said Im perfectly healthy so I dunno.
 
well I did gain 25 lbs with each of my 4 pregnancies ....but it just alsways fell off. Ive been the same weight since I was about 15. I can't help it...It's just where my body is comfortable. I don't watch my weight or anything and it is within healthy range. Im sorry if my veganisim upsets people.....it's just who I am.

Im also sorry if I offended anyone....I think I got upset and posted in haste. I think everyone here is great, so please forgive me if I came off rude.

I now have to walk away from this thread....*I* feel Im being unfairly judged. Im sorry, it's just how I feel.
Ok, back to my tofu ;-) haha just kidding I had stuffed peppers for dinner.

Honestly, I never intended to discuss you, personally. Unfortunately, you brought that up. I don't know you, and certainly have no right to judge your health. Not only is it none of my concern...I really just don't care. As I said, you appear to be an enigma of sorts in this venue. You are different. Nothing werong with that, but it does pose interesting questions regarding the diet of vegans and vegetarians.

What would be funny is if you didn't start your vegan diet until already in your late 20's. It would be a nice rebuttal against the growth rate arguments being made. But it still wouldn;t changfe the fact that it is not what normally happens.

Really, I do not have anything against you, your diet, or your lifestyle. It's your choice to live however you see fit, and to raise your children the best that you can. Got nothing to do with me.

My arguments are simple...I don't believe it is the most healthy choice for everyone. I don't believe it is the answer to our environmental troubles. I don't believe it is the way we, as omnivorous animals, are intended to gain nutrition. But that's just my opinion, and what I have been saying is merely my reasoning behind the opinion. That doesn't mean I don't like or respect you. I just don't agree with your earlier statements regarding the environment or the level of health of a vegan diet.

That's all...nothing personal. Honestly, I would have MUCH rather had this conversation as a hypothetical, rather than using you, an actual person, as the example. That was, originally, my intent...
 
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