Strawberry Mystery

[Serpwidgets]

Here's Garthina, (the strawberry female pictured in the close-up above) at 1 year old.

<img src=http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9594&stc=1>

 

[Rich Z]

When talking to Don at SMR and Jim at SWR, to see if they were aware of the anery gene in the lines, we discovered that both of them have gotten an interesting result from Strawberry X Strawberry crosses: Strawberrys and Anerys. They were not ghosts, but typical-looking anerys.

At this point I see three possibilities:

A · Strawberry's expression is masked by anerythrism. (Maybe its effect is not exactly a simple reduction of melanin.)

B · Strawberry is an allele to anerythrism, and is dominant to anery, meaning that:
an^a·an^a = Anery,
an^a·an^s = Strawberry, and
an^s·an^s = Strawberry.

C · Strawberry is a selectively-bred variation and is not inherited in simple-recessive fashion.

D · (any other ideas?)

-----

We're working out some breeding trials to see if we can determine what Strawberry is. Any input or information is welcome, especially if someone has outcrossed Strawberry and produced F2s to demonstrate an on/off split between strawberry and normal phenotypes.

Note: the "Strawberry" being referred to here is a specific line of corns that comes from Southwest Wisconsin Reptiles and has also been in SMR's hands. (I'm not talking about snows that have been called strawberry. )

Interesting......

After reading through this thread and looking at the photos, I'm leaning towards Door Number 'C'.

But I guess breeding trials with Strawberry to Caramel, Charcoal, and Lavender may be telling, if only from the negative results produced. If F2s from these crosses do not produce an obvious Strawberry influenced combo, then this would pretty strongly support the Strawberry simply being a variant of the normal coloration that has been selectively bred for that particular appearance.

Although breeding Strawberry to all of the variants of Hypomelanism necessarily needs to be done, just to cross the 'T's and dot the 'i's, based on what this thread is showing so far, I doubt that anything surprising will result. Likely all breedings will product just normals and F2s not produce anything indicative of a multiple genetic combo. That's just my guess. I've chased quite enough red herrings over the years myself to see the earmarks here...... :shrugs:

 

[HanneysCorn]

Strawberries, now that I have seen them, are not 'just another hypo'; they are amazingly bright in colour. I now understand the 'possibilities', thank you Serp,and can fully appreciate why you and others are putting forth such a consolidated effort to discovery the origin of this colouration.

I can't remember, other than when Rich posted his Goldusts for the first time, when a corn's colour has simply taken my breath away as those do. Here's hoping success is acheived well before 2009.

Ruth

 

[snake5007]

Don crossed the above pictured anery (strawberry) to an amber this year. I would assume that the Amber (by virtue of being a caramel) is possibly het anery.

If we assume that strawberry is a genetic trait, the cross is one of these:

(Where anery and strawberry are alleles)
Hypo Caramel X Anery = normals.
Hypo Caramel het anery X Anery = normals and anerys.

(Where strawberry is not an allele to anery or hypo)
Hypo Caramel X Anery Strawberry = normals.
Hypo Caramel het anery X Anery Strawberry = normals and anerys.

(Where strawberry is an allele to hypo)
Hypo Caramel X Anery Strawberry = hypos.
Hypo Caramel het anery X Anery Strawberry = hypos and ghosts, or hypos and anerys. (The anerys would occur if the hypo/strawberry genotype is masked by anery.)

Either way, the absence or presence of hypos should help to confirm or deny the "strawberry = hypo" hypothesis. The only outcome that would throw a wrench in the gears is if the entire clutch hatches out anerythristic. The other possible problem is if that Anery (strawberry) is het hypo. :grin01:

But if he gets all normals it makes a very strong case.

i'm probably wrong here, but shouldn't the first one be half normals/half anery's if the caramel is het. anery? :shrugs:

 

[Serpwidgets]

i'm probably wrong here, but shouldn't the first one be half normals/half anery's if the caramel is het. anery? :shrugs:

Which first one? Can you highlight the one you're talking about?

 

[snake5007]

Don crossed the above pictured anery (strawberry) to an amber this year. I would assume that the Amber (by virtue of being a caramel) is possibly het anery.

If we assume that strawberry is a genetic trait, the cross is one of these:

(Where anery and strawberry are alleles)
Hypo Caramel X Anery = normals.
Hypo Caramel het anery X Anery = normals and anerys.

sorry, i meant this first one!

 

[snake5007]

ah, i didn't take the hypo into account! without the hypo would i be right? :grin01:

 

[Serpwidgets]

shouldn't the first one be half normals/half anery's if the caramel is het. anery?

Hypo Caramel het anery X Anery = normals and anerys.

... :shrugs:

 

[abell82]

These are Anerys. They hatch as anerys and grow up to look like anerys. The anery motleys I hatched show that the gene involved is the anery gene. (The amel's father was an anery motley from a different line.)

Which anery gene? They grow up to look like which type of anery? Being a bit ambiguous, no?

Don crossed the above pictured anery (strawberry) to an amber this year. I would assume that the Amber (by virtue of being a caramel) is possibly het anery.

If we assume that strawberry is a genetic trait, the cross is one of these:

(Where anery and strawberry are alleles)
Hypo Caramel X Anery = normals.
Hypo Caramel het anery X Anery = normals and anerys.

(Where strawberry is not an allele to anery or hypo)
Hypo Caramel X Anery Strawberry = normals.
Hypo Caramel het anery X Anery Strawberry = normals and anerys.

(Where strawberry is an allele to hypo)
Hypo Caramel X Anery Strawberry = hypos.
Hypo Caramel het anery X Anery Strawberry = hypos and ghosts, or hypos and anerys. (The anerys would occur if the hypo/strawberry genotype is masked by anery.)

Either way, the absence or presence of hypos should help to confirm or deny the "strawberry = hypo" hypothesis. The only outcome that would throw a wrench in the gears is if the entire clutch hatches out anerythristic. The other possible problem is if that Anery (strawberry) is het hypo. :grin01:

But if he gets all normals it makes a very strong case.

Not a strong case, just means an incompatibility, as Rich points out below there is more than one Hypo gene after all.

Interesting......

After reading through this thread and looking at the photos, I'm leaning towards Door Number 'C'.

But I guess breeding trials with Strawberry to Caramel, Charcoal, and Lavender may be telling, if only from the negative results produced. If F2s from these crosses do not produce an obvious Strawberry influenced combo, then this would pretty strongly support the Strawberry simply being a variant of the normal coloration that has been selectively bred for that particular appearance.

Although breeding Strawberry to all of the variants of Hypomelanism necessarily needs to be done, just to cross the 'T's and dot the 'i's, based on what this thread is showing so far, I doubt that anything surprising will result. Likely all breedings will product just normals and F2s not produce anything indicative of a multiple genetic combo. That's just my guess. I've chased quite enough red herrings over the years myself to see the earmarks here...... :shrugs:

So what do we really know here? The Strawberry is not compatible with the amel that you bred it too, but is het for the same Anery, and motley gene that said Amel is also het for? Is that about right? Or No?

 

[Serpwidgets]

Which anery gene? They grow up to look like which type of anery? Being a bit ambiguous, no?

There's only one anery gene. I'm talking about anery, the anery mutant at the anery locus. I don't do the whole "type" thing because one of the problems it causes is exactly that type of ambiguity. :santa:

The photo of the adult clearly shows what they grow up to look like. The hatchlings I produced this year also show what we're looking at, which is anery.

The cross we did here was a strawberry motley to an amel motley het anery (her father was an anery motley het hypo and amel from VMS Herp) so it's pretty reasonable to conclude that the anerys this pair produced are just that, anerys.

Not a strong case, just means an incompatibility, as Rich points out below there is more than one Hypo gene after all.

Ok, in this case maybe I was being ambiguous. I meant it makes a strong case that strawberry is not at the hypo locus.

Again, for future reference, I do not use "hypo type B, C, D..." I use Sunkissed, Lava, and Ultra.

So what do we really know here? The Strawberry is not compatible with the amel that you bred it too, but is het for the same Anery, and motley gene that said Amel is also het for? Is that about right? Or No?

We know that lines identified as strawberry (and which have come from the same lineage, originating at SWR) have been crossed into the amel, anery, and motley morphs and can still retain their "strawberriness."

We know that strawberry is not ultra and does not reside at the amel locus.

We know that strawberry's particular "look" is masked by the expression of anery.

What we need to test is "Is it an on/off gene, and if so, which locus is it at?"

 

[Rich Z]

I think the question being asked is whether "Strawberry" is in fact a single gene at all. It may be that, just as "Okeetee" and "Miami Phase", although being readily identifiable "looks" in a corn snake, are not actually what we consider to be a trait that is controlled by a single genetic influence, this "Strawberry" look could be in the same category.

Just as breeding Miami Phase to Miami Phase typically produces Miami Phase looking corn snakes. And in a same likeness, breeding Miami Phase Motleys will produce Miami Phase looking Motleys. And breeding Miami Phase het for Anerythrism will certainly produce Anerythristics as well as Miami Phase.

But in the above example of Miami Phase het for Anerythrism, I think it would be premature to state that Anerythrism "masks" the Miami Phase trait. Not unless you consider ANY genetic trait as "masking" the normal coloration of the corn snake.

 

[Serpwidgets]

I think the question being asked is whether "Strawberry" is in fact a single gene at all.

Yeah exactly.

What we need to test is "Is it an on/off gene, and if so, which locus is it at?"

Same thing. :cheers:

But in the above example of Miami Phase het for Anerythrism, I think it would be premature to state that Anerythrism "masks" the Miami Phase trait. Not unless you consider ANY genetic trait as "masking" the normal coloration of the corn snake.

Yeah, this is what I mean. A single on/off gene could hide a selectively bred color/pattern. In a more extreme example, if you had two miamis het leucism, IMO it would be fair to say that leucism "masks" the miami look, since you wouldn't be able to look at several different leucistics and say "that one came from miami parents."

 

[ecreipeoj]

I went back to check on some of the emails that I got from Carlos Lahitte in 2004 when we started our Hypo Test breeding Project. Carlos bred one of his female Strawberries from SWR to a Male Lava. Here is the results Carlos sent me.

Email August 11, 2004 “I breed the Strawberry to the Lava Male and get 7 normals and 1 anery out of 8 good eggs.”

The following year, the male Lava proved to be het for Snow. This breeding is actually the first one that tested Strawberries X Amel which resulted in Normals, so we actually have two test breedings that show Strawberries are not located at the Amel locus. Strawberries and Lavas are not compatible and it is interesting to note, that one Anery was produced in this clutch.

I will search through my emails to see if I can find any more breedings that Carlos did with the Strawberries and check on his 2005 results as well.

From the photos of the Strawberries that I have seen, it seems clear to me that they are a hypomelanistic phenotype. Their black coloration is greatly reduced and there is a lavender/gray color where the black should be. I do not believe that selective breeding is responsible for the effect on the black pigment, but it very well may be the cause of their strawberry red color. I will try to get more info from Jim. He has to have enough breedings to conclusively prove if the Strawberries are a simple on and off mutant gene.

 

[snake5007]

this gets more and more interesting! are there any plans to breed the normal babies when they're older? was the anery produced because the strawberry gene somehow interacted with the anery gene from the lava? just a thought, seeing as they could share the same allele. if so, does this mean that a strawberry bred to an anery will produce all normals or most normals and a small number of anery's? :shrugs:

 

[Hurley]

I wish you luck, Joe. All I've ever been able to get out of him is that they've been bred together. I don't think he's interested in proving them or creating new morphs, he's just producing more very lovely corals and strawberries. Not a bad thing, that's just where his focus is (or isn't). He's gotten much more into BPs and less into corns.

 

[ecreipeoj]

this gets more and more interesting! are there any plans to breed the normal babies when they're older? was the anery produced because the strawberry gene somehow interacted with the anery gene from the lava? just a thought, seeing as they could share the same allele. if so, does this mean that a strawberry bred to an anery will produce all normals or most normals and a small number of anery's? :shrugs:

I don’t know if Carlos kept any of the Lava het Snow X Strawberry offspring. I sent Carlos an email to see how his Strawberry testing went in 2005. I found an email that stated that he planned on breeding them to Ultras and Hypos in 2005.

You can not make any realistic predictions from a breeding that results in only 8 offspring, but if Strawberry was an allele to Anery, you would expect approximately 50% Strawberries and/or Anerys from this match. This one test is more indicitive of two Corns that are het for Anery being bred together and that Strawberry and Anery are not located on the same locus, but many more results are needed. It would seem as if Don S would have some breeding results to report.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I wish you luck, Joe. All I've ever been able to get out of him is that they've been bred together. I don't think he's interested in proving them or creating new morphs, he's just producing more very lovely corals and strawberries. Not a bad thing, that's just where his focus is (or isn't). He's gotten much more into BPs and less into corns.

I know it is like pulling teeth to get anything out of him, but I can talk Ball Python too, so maybe I can get him going and slip in a few Strawberry questions.

 

[kathylove]

Very interesting projects!

I have never kept strawberries - I have more than enough projects to keep me busy right now! But it is really intriguing to see all of the work going on to figure out the "recipe" for this beautiful snake.

I can't really add anything, but will watch the results with interest!

Good luck to all!

 

[SODERBERGD]

Strawberry corns . . .

I'm away from my business for a few days so I only have my memory (such that it isn't) to give you some data about my experiences with strawberry corns.

I got a few from Jim about six years ago. He was quick to point out that he made no declarations about the genetics of the race, but felt it was something new and different.

Frankly, I never outcrossed it to anything else and as evidenced by the absence of this morph on my site, never aggressively produced or marketed it. Looking back now, I wish I'd bred them to other morphs to find out how it ticked. Like Kathy, there are just so many other horizons, there aren't enough resources and time to do them all.

From the very beginning, I had only two males and two females. I don't recall what happened to the other female, but have only had one female to use for the past few years. Every single time I've bred a strawberry to a strawberry, I got strawberries and albinos. Two years running, I got one to two aneries per clutch. Jim said he too saw those. I didn't say ghosts. They were visually just plain ole aneries. I use the term anery for anerythristic A, of course.

No, I never kept many of the strawberries, albinos, or aneries. Not until 2004. I kept back two or three strawberry babies and one anery baby. One of the strawberries was sexually mature this year and one of the aneries. As Connie or Serp said, I bred the anery to an amber this year and I'll check my records when I get home, but I'm pretty sure I bred the strawberry to a gold dust. We'll see what happens. I kept back a couple of strawberries and a couple of the albinos from last year. I'll see in a few years what makes those albinos tick.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Ok, I've also gone and updated the "Hypo Compatibility Tests" thread with the latest info. (http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=99760)

The newest "test grid" is:
<IMG SRC=http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=36852&stc=1>