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Stripes in Corn Snakes...Exspecially Butters

Live4TheLord115

New member
I'm really confused by stripes and motley..i don't know the correct term...phases? Why are certain colors such as normals and the more common color variations, easier to get striped forms of? I will be purchasing a corn sometime in the beginning of next year, and was doing some searching for a color variety i found appealing. It strayed from normals, to miami phase, to butters. I liked the normal butters, but liked the color of the motleys, since their yellow seems brighter, but i was still interested in the stripe phase, then i found striped butters, and was amazed at their looks. Only to find out that butter corns are only recently being striped and are there fore expensive. Why are butters only recently being striped, and on a related note, what phase corns would bare butter offspring or even better, striped butter babies. thanks guys!
 
Welcome to the Forums!

The Butter corns are homozygous for two color morph genes- Amel (amelanistic) and Caramel. The Striped Butters are also homozygous for another gene which alters pattern, the Striped gene (we have such creative names). As far as pattern morphs go, the Striped are some of the newer discovered ones and thus are a little bit harder to come by than say, Motley. The same applies to other genes involved. Amel was the first color morph to be discovered, and it's incredibly common now. Finding an Amel almost anything isn't really that hard. The caramel is not nearly as wide spread as genes like Amel and Anery (another very old gene). That's why the Butter Stripes are so expensive-it takes a few generations to get a triple Homozygous morph. Not a lot of people work with Butters as much as some other morphs also, so there are less Butter Stripe projects going on.

If you would want to breed for Striped Butter, you should look for animals with the Amel, Caramel, and Stipe genes in them. I think a great pair to start off with would be Caramel Stripe het for (carrying the gene for) Amel and a Butter het Stripe. (You could also do another combo with those genes.) It might be a bit harder to find a pair that specific, but if you breed those two it'd be very hard NOT to get a Butter Stripe in your first breeding.

Also, if you like the look of the Butters you should also take a look as some similar morphs like the Golddusts (Ultramel Caramel), Topaz corns (Lava Caramel), and Ambers (Hypo Caramels).

Either way, a Butter Stripe project would be an awesome one to start off with and I think if you really like the look of them you could have a lot of fun with it.

I hope this helps, and sorry if it's a bit confusing. It really takes a while to get in the flow of these things, lol. ;)
 
Some color morphs and combo morphs are easier to find and less expensive mostly due to their "precursors" being around longer (the gene has been isolated and identified for a longer time). Also, the more genes involved, the longer it can take to get all of them in homozygous form in the same snake. Most corn snake genes are simple recessives. In order for the particular trait of each gene to be expressed, it must be present in homozygous form...that is, there must be 2 of them...one from each parent. The more commonly found a gene is, the more likely it is to be placed in the gene pool when pairing snakes. To give you an idea of about how long it can take for certain combo morphs to be created, I'll start with the discovery of a brand new imaginary gene I'll call "paisley".

I found a female hatchling corn snake expressing a new look...paisley. First, I have to prove it is genetic. I wait the average 3 years for my paisley snake to grow up and I breed her to a known wild-type male (known to not be carrying any recessive genes at all). The resulting clutch has yielded all normal looking offspring. I keep all 4 pairs as I'm not letting anyone have any yet and wait the 3 long years for them to grow up.

Being smart, while the original pairs are growing up, I breed the original female to a few other males with a mixed variety of genes...a snow the second year and a hypo motley the third, and I keep 3 pairs from each breeding, but sell the rest as wholesale normals as I'm running out of room.

The first group of babies (F1 generation) are ready to be bred now and I pair each F1 female with a brother, but I also breed the original mother to one of her sons. I start smoking again and drinking heavily as I wait for the resulting clutches to be laid and then to finally hatch. The first one to hatch is from the mother X son pairing and I get a lovely clutch of half normals and half paisley! I do a little dance and wait for the other clutches to hatch. They yield 75% normals and 25% paisley, just as I had hoped. I choose my keepers and advertise a limited supply of homozygous paisley, het paisley and possible het paisley offspring, pricing the homozygous paisleys at $1000 each the first year.

The following year, I have some F1 offspring that are het paisley, amel and anery to pair together. I also pair the original female with a bloodred this year (year 7, in case you haven't been keeping track). The resulting F2 generation from the 3 kept females (each laid 15 eggs) yield a nice percentage...5 paisley, 2 amel paisley, 1 anery paisley and 1 snow paisley (the Punnett Square results from a triple heterozygous pair is 9/64 paisley, 3/64 amel paisley, 3/64 anery paisley and 1/64 snow paisley). I keep them all and build a new snake building out back. However, Murphy hits me with his law and the snow paisley and an amel paisley are problem feeders and die, and the remaining 7 are male heavy...only 2 of the paisleys are female. I also lost half the clutch from the paisley X bloodred pairing to mold, but the 3.2 hatchlings are doing well. I've also produced enough paisleys from the het pairs to start selling all of them. The price has remained at $1000 each as I have a large waiting list.

In the 8th year, I paired the F1 het hypo paisley motleys and got some interesting results...one pair was also het for anery so the one ghost paisley possible het motley is kept with the 2 hypo paisleys, the 3 motley paisley and the one hypo paisley motley. It was a good year as I also got 2 snow paisleys, 2 anery paisleys and 3 amel paisleys with a nice sex ratio. Regular paisleys have dropped in price to $800 each, but I sold one amel paisley male for $1200. I've also added some normals het caramel paisley motley to by keeper list.

It's the 9th year now and the F1 paisleys are big enough to breed. I expect quite a few so the price has dropped to $500 each, but the few paisley combos for sale are $1000 each. I can increase the normal combos by breeding the male paisleys with the other morph females in my collection. Unfortunately, some morphs I either only have hatchlings or not at all, such as ashy, lava, and Sunkissed, and I also don't have many color combos with bloodred and stripe. I did breed one paisley female with an amel stripe, so in 3 years, I can breed those normals het amel paisley stripe together and hope for a couple of paisley stripes and maybe just one amel paisley stripe. That would be in the 12th year since I found the original female. I wouldn't have a large variety of amel paisley stripes for sale for at least 3 more years after that, and I doubt the price would go down below $200-300 for them until perhaps 10 more years after that.

Now substitute "caramel" for "paisley" and wait for amel caramel stripes (butter stripes). That's why you haven't seen too many of them and why the price is as high as it is. And there are many, MANY more combos that are just wishful thinking in some breeders' minds as they wait for hatchlings to grow into adults.
 
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wow, thank you both of you.

susan, your response was both educational and kind of funny. i did enjoy it, and it answered my questions.

thanks again!

Kevin
 
now i just want to make sure i have a general idea here. these are from serpenco (which if im not mistaken is the same guy who admins this forum?)

so would stripe corn babies come from an Amel Stripe het Butter X Carmel Stripe het Butter? or from a Carmel Stripe het Butter X Amel het Butter Stripe pairing?

i know buying both a male and female snake will the same as simply buying a striped butter but not to sound childish messing with genetics and getting something that doesn't look like the parents and is exactly what i want through my own care and breeding would be quite a nice personal accomplishment.
 
Amel Stripe het Caramel x Caramel Stripe het Amel
=
  • Stripes het Amel & Caramel
  • Amel Stripes het Caramel
  • Caramel Stripes het Amel
  • Butter Stripes

Carmel Stripe het Amel X Amel het Caramel Stripe
=
  • Normals het Butter Stripe
  • Amels het Caramel Stripe
  • Carmels het Amel Stripe
  • Butters het Stripe
  • Stripes het Amel & Caramel
  • Amel Stripes het Caramel
  • Caramel Stripes het Amel
  • Butter Stripes

If you want the most variety, go with the 2nd pairing. If you want just Stripes (with a higher possibility of producing Butter Stripes) go with the 1st pairing.
 
I also wanted to get butter stripes and got a bit of sticker shock at the price. Luckily, it's easy to find animals with the hets and 2-3 years is not that long to wait. Of course, the butter stripes will probably cost less in 3 years.
I don't really get why they are worth like 5 times as much as ghost stripes, either. Must have been less people working on the project. Smart people.
 
ya i know they'll probably go down in price by the time i genetically breed my own but where's the fun in just picking up a striped butter corn? best to create your own. i feel like a dr. Frankenstein when i say that.
 
I don't think wanting to make your own is childish at all, my normal het blood, anery, amel girl is my pride and joy, nothing special morph-wise, but I bred her!
 
I agree with Janine! Nothing wrong with wanting to breed your own! :)

I don't have any pairs of a particular morph in my collection, I have lots of different morphs that are "compatible" with others...lol

Projects are fun, do what you feel passionate about and what you are going to get the greatest enjoyment from! :)
 
now i just want to make sure i have a general idea here. these are from serpenco (which if im not mistaken is the same guy who admins this forum?)

so would stripe corn babies come from an Amel Stripe het Butter X Carmel Stripe het Butter? or from a Carmel Stripe het Butter X Amel het Butter Stripe pairing?

Since it's obvious that you've been looking at Rich's website (I really love doing that myself), you're going to need to rethink your pairings as he only has males in caramel stripes het butter and amels het butter stripe (your 2nd pairing). Depending upon how much you want to spend, and how big of a variety in offspring you want, you may want to consider a Butter het stripe female X a caramel stripe het butter male.
 
Since it's obvious that you've been looking at Rich's website (I really love doing that myself), you're going to need to rethink your pairings as he only has males in caramel stripes het butter and amels het butter stripe (your 2nd pairing). Depending upon how much you want to spend, and how big of a variety in offspring you want, you may want to consider a Butter het stripe female X a caramel stripe het butter male.

i can't get enough of his website.lol. I noticed that as well last night looking over it yet again. I won't be ordering till the beginning of next year (need to buy christmas gifts for friends/family/etc. so if i understand proper snake breeding times, he won't have new stock till the second half of next year and what he has now is what he'll have then. other than of course the few ones that are sold here and there.
 
i can't get enough of his website.lol. I noticed that as well last night looking over it yet again. I won't be ordering till the beginning of next year (need to buy christmas gifts for friends/family/etc. so if i understand proper snake breeding times, he won't have new stock till the second half of next year and what he has now is what he'll have then. other than of course the few ones that are sold here and there.

Rich usually has his new hatchlings available starting around July. He has been running a 50% Off Right-out-of-egg Sale shortly before he expects his clutches to start hatching, but he also has a minimum purchase of around $300 for those. He also sometimes runs a sale on the few remaining hatchlings from the previous year, but you can never tell what will be remaining, especially since the numbers he has now on what you're interested in are dwindling. You can't go wrong with SerpenCo stock and if money is a little tight right now, due to the holiday season, you can ask Rich if you can put a deposit down on the snakes you want and if he'll hold them for you until after the holidays and you are able to pay the remaining balance and accept shipment. It never hurts to ask.
 
well i have decided that this is what i want to do and have sent him an e-mail asking if he'll do a deposit agreement. Now im just awaiting a reply.
 
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