Studies on dog behavior!

[ZoologyGirl]

Heather, you know it always was, with all the positives and negatives, paradoxically confusing to me.

I'm with ya there...it took me a while to try and recall how all of that stuff was categorized...and then a while longer to remember how it worked with real life examples.

I had a great professor of animal behavior though, Patricia McConnell, and I believe a lot of what I learned in her class will stick with me for a long time to come, even if it gets a bit fuzzy [/img]

 

[Michael823]

You are a liar. Everyone, absolutely everyone, knows that the minute momma dog has her pups, their personalities develop. There is a dominant pup, there is a runt, and everyone else in between establishes their position. From the second after birth!

Any home that has two or more dogs in it has this exact same hierarchy established. Period. One is the boss, the rest aren't. They don't fight every day, but there was at least one altercation between your dogs to establish this. Period. The fact that you don't recognize this in our own dogs indicates that you are either lying or do not pay attention to your dog's behaviors as intently as you surmise.

D80

WRONG! They have NEVER fought, not once. On my life I can guarantee that to be the truth, and if I was religious I would call Jesus as my witness. I'm not sure what about this surprises you, but it's the absolute truth.

"The fact that you don't recognize this in our own dogs indicates that you are either lying or do not pay attention to your dog's behaviors as intently as you surmise."

I'm not sure how you even get off saying this, I am literally in stitches watching you try to squeeze blood out of a rock. Seriously, would you put all of your credibility on the line to try to call me a liar. I would literally take a polygraph if it would officially debunk your alpha male, macho male, dominant male machismo.

Would you be willing to say that someone who has two German Shepherds, who have NEVER fought, not even a squabble, is more educated on proper training and dog behavior (theoretically of course )?

Please, answer this question. I am curious to know if you are really willing to go out on a limb to defend you calling me a liar.

 

[Drizzt80]

Prove it. You can't. And no, I don't believe you. Your dogs established a hierarchy with or without you, and you obviously either don't recognize it or choose to ignore it just as you (and your brother) have chosen to ignore anything I have directly or indirectly said about how I intend to train, and have trained, my dogs. You know more than me, that is clear in your mind, but you have yet to convince me. Quite honestly I could care less at this point because you refuse to recognize the simplest, most obvious, hardwired behavior that every dog has. And you call yourself a dog trainer? Your brother already broke the secret and told us that you didn't even train your dog!! Someone else did!

D80

 

[ZoologyGirl]

"...I could hold it just so, and it touched the dog nowhere, except where and when I tapped/annoyed the front of his nose with it, which had the result of interrupting his forward progress...and cascaded into the new behaviour of walking with slack in the leash."

You REALLY ARE smarter than the dog, lol! Unfortunately, I have met some pet owners who don't seem as smart as their snake, let alone their dog, haha! It seems that a lot of times, owners just don't stop to think the situation through, rather than just reacting emotionally. Not a matter of how smart they are, but how much thought they put into the solution.

Wise words indeed.

 

[Michael823]

Prove it. You can't. And no, I don't believe you. Your dogs established a hierarchy with or without you, and you obviously either don't recognize it or choose to ignore it just as you (and your brother) have chosen to ignore anything I have directly or indirectly said about how I intend to train, and have trained, my dogs. You know more than me, that is clear in your mind, but you have yet to convince me. Quite honestly I could care less at this point because you refuse to recognize the simplest, most obvious, hardwired behavior that every dog has. And you call yourself a dog trainer? Your brother already broke the secret and told us that you didn't even train your dog!! Someone else did!

D80

Ignored the only question I asked of you, I love irony :roflmao:. And seeing a trainer doesn't mean I had my dog trained for me, I would expect more intelligence of a teacher :eek1:. If someone wanted to learn science, they would go to you right? Does that mean that you did all of the work for a student who passes?
It means that I spent my time and resources to ensure my training was done correctly... Strange concept, huh?

So answer my question, or are you dodging it.

Theoretically, if someone had two German Shepherds that have never fought, would you consider them to be more educated on dog behavior and proper training than you?

I gave you the option of "theoretically" to help you along with your obvious inability to admit you were wrong to personally call me a liar :sidestep:.

 

[ceduke]

I can see how the head harness could work, if used properly. But I found the quick corrections with the choke chain stopped pulling, too.

I think for most dogs a choke chain or prong collar is perfectly fine (assuming the human on the other end knows how to use it!).

I recommend the harness for people who have dogs that lunge at things (like my dog any time he thinks there might be a squirrel anywhere ) or for breeds of dog that are prone to trachea problems. For those dogs, I really prefer not to have anything around the neck.

Choke collars trained my parents' coyote hybrid to walk fabulously, and that dog was HARD to work with on a lot of things.

 

[Drizzt80]

So answer my question, or are you dodging it.

Says the guy that doesn't answer anyone else because it's beneath his all supreme knowledge. Sucks doesn't it?!

Theoretically, if someone had two German Shepherds that have never fought, would you consider them to be more educated on dog behavior and proper training than you?

Look up the word "fight". Here, I've helped you. Read ALL the definitions. Come back here and reread the question I posed about your two dogs.

I repeat:

Your dogs established a hierarchy with or without you, and you obviously either don't recognize it or choose to ignore it just as you (and your brother) have chosen to ignore anything I have directly or indirectly said about how I intend to train, and have trained, my dogs. You know more than me, that is clear in your mind, but you have yet to convince me. Quite honestly I could care less at this point because you refuse to recognize the simplest, most obvious, hardwired behavior that every dog has.

D80

 

[ceduke]

You know...my parents' two dogs have never fought either, or even scuffled. They don't need to. The mini poodle can move the coyote hybrid out of her bed just by looking at her. If he's feeling really bossy he may go lay his head on her shoulder while she is laying down, or bump her out of the way with his hips. She accepts this without question.

It is entirely possible for two dogs to work out a hierarchy without using aggression.

 

[Ricky87]

I think for most dogs a choke chain or prong collar is perfectly fine (assuming the human on the other end knows how to use it!).

I recommend the harness for people who have dogs that lunge at things (like my dog any time he thinks there might be a squirrel anywhere ) or for breeds of dog that are prone to trachea problems. For those dogs, I really prefer not to have anything around the neck.

Choke collars trained my parents' coyote hybrid to walk fabulously, and that dog was HARD to work with on a lot of things.

You know...my parents' two dogs have never fought either, or even scuffled. They don't need to. The mini poodle can move the coyote hybrid out of her bed just by looking at her. If he's feeling really bossy he may go lay his head on her shoulder while she is laying down, or bump her out of the way with his hips. She accepts this without question.

It is entirely possible for two dogs to work out a hierarchy without using aggression.

Very good advice, and I totally agree about the harness. Sometimes the risk of potentially harming a dogs neck in tug is far less than the risk of an obsessive dog breaking free and running down it's target. Also agree about the dog aggression. Well adjusted dogs have no need at all to be aggressive, and I've noticed times when Rajon can tell Ciana to back off, and Ciana can tell Rajon to back off. It's dependent on who's being the pest at that particular moment, and there is no "I own you". Any possessiveness shown by any of our dogs is corrected by the removal of the desired possession. Works perfect for us. BTW, I've never heard of a Coyote hybrid?. How in the world did that come about?!.

 

[Drizzt80]

It is entirely possible for two dogs to work out a hierarchy without using aggression.

One is the boss, one isn't. They worked out their hierarchy. "Fight" doesn't necessarily mean aggression. Michael refuses to acknowledge that, which is fine.

Michael has made another assumption that fight means drop down drag out tooth and nail snarling barking fight. Just like he, and his brother, made the assumption that an e-collar was going be put on my 51 day old puppy in order to electrocute it into submission, just like they assumed that by "rod" I meant I was going to beat my dog(s) with a piece of metal until they respond, etc. . . . all the while regaling us with their prowess at dog training and how much bettererer (intentional) they are :bowdown: . . . while ignoring the fact that I intend to use, and have used, just about every training method that has been described over the last 24 hours in these threads while never once proclaiming that I am an expert at doing any of them.

The only training tip/technique/mantra that I stand by 100% is the pack mentality. Hierarchy. And that involves techniques other than feeding my dog string cheese to learn his directions. Directions that involve being loved, being safe, and being active.

If they want to continue to attack my integrity with how I treat my animals, or insult my intelligence about what I do and don't know involving dogs and dog training then I guess I will continue biting on the hook they are trolling through the waters of these couple of threads.

D80

 

[ceduke]

I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just adding another opinion. Yes, doubtless one dog does rank above the other. They may display it in subtle ways, so I think it's unfair to call someone a liar when they say their dogs haven't fought. Then again, questioning someone's integrity because they do things differently is pretty crummy too, so I'll stay out of it now.

BTW, I've never heard of a Coyote hybrid?. How in the world did that come about?!.

Well, we don't know for certain that she is a coydog...but she looks a LOT like a short, stocky coyote and she has had MAJOR issues from day one that are apparently common in coydogs. If she isn't on her turf (my parents' house) she is somewhat dangerous. When she is insecure, she tends to lash out. I don't allow strangers to pet her at ALL, and I make darn sure anyone who comes over with me takes their time with her. Though...it's better now that she's so old she's losing her teeth.

We've worked with an excellent behaviorist, and she improved some, but I think we hit a point where she just couldn't come any further. We've had her for 13 years now and managed her well enough that we haven't had a serious incident, so I think we did OK.

 

[airenlow]

We have a pack of 6 well behaved/trained dogs living at my house (3 Beagles and 3 GSPs), but about once a week the oldest male Beagle has to put somebody in their place. A clear hierarchy has been established and he is the top dog (bad pun). He doesn't reward the others with treats, cookies or cheese when they do something correct...he uses body language and physical contact when they do something he does not approve of. I don't understand why the same shouldn't be true when a human is introduced into the pack...

PS. We use e-collars and bark collars to train our dogs...there goes any credibility I had for the above statement!

 

[Ricky87]

One is the boss, one isn't. They worked out their hierarchy. "Fight" doesn't necessarily mean aggression. Michael refuses to acknowledge that, which is fine.

Michael has made another assumption that fight means drop down drag out tooth and nail snarling barking fight. Just like he, and his brother, made the assumption that an e-collar was going be put on my 51 day old puppy in order to electrocute it into submission, just like they assumed that by "rod" I meant I was going to beat my dog(s) with a piece of metal until they respond, etc. . . . all the while regaling us with their prowess at dog training and how much bettererer (intentional) they are :bowdown: . . . while ignoring the fact that I intend to use, and have used, just about every training method that has been described over the last 24 hours in these threads while never once proclaiming that I am an expert at doing any of them.

The only training tip/technique/mantra that I stand by 100% is the pack mentality. Hierarchy. And that involves techniques other than feeding my dog string cheese to learn his directions. Directions that involve being loved, being safe, and being active.

If they want to continue to attack my integrity with how I treat my animals, or insult my intelligence about what I do and don't know involving dogs and dog training then I guess I will continue biting on the hook they are trolling through the waters of these couple of threads.

D80

Listen to yourself!. How you can say we're trolling is beyond me when you quote every thing someone say's and start attacking it in an attempt to validate your opinion. Provide some advice, help, guidance, whatever, but your starting to sound so petty. String cheese, love, and discipline work well for us; our dogs don't fight. Maybe it's not what you want to hear, but then just do what your going to do with your dog and be done with it. How you can expect anyone to answer you when you respond like this is unrealistic. I'm a strong believer in positive reinforcement and I love to learn all I can about new philosophies, techniques, and technologies to help me be a better trainer. I've turned 2 dogs lives around with dedication and commitment, but your still only going to see what you want to see. Fortunately me and Michael are on the right path to becoming people who can affect the loves of misunderstood dogs, which is a beautiful thing. Drop the ego and realize this is a thread predicated on the sharing of information between dog loving folk, and all of us are trying to improve the behavior, as well as the quality of life of our dogs!. Share some of your techniques if your so bold; I'm only too willing to listen!.

 

[Ricky87]

Well, we don't know for certain that she is a coydog...but she looks a LOT like a short, stocky coyote and she has had MAJOR issues from day one that are apparently common in coydogs. If she isn't on her turf (my parents' house) she is somewhat dangerous. When she is insecure, she tends to lash out. I don't allow strangers to pet her at ALL, and I make darn sure anyone who comes over with me takes their time with her. Though...it's better now that she's so old she's losing her teeth.

We've worked with an excellent behaviorist, and she improved some, but I think we hit a point where she just couldn't come any further. We've had her for 13 years now and managed her well enough that we haven't had a serious incident, so I think we did OK.

Ya, hybrid dogs can be a handful. A friend of my mothers had a wolf/shephard mix that had a lot of wild tendencies. The best you can do is try, but if the aggression is that bad than it's best to just limit the dog to only family contact. 13 is pretty old to try and correct some of the more aggressive issues too, but still sounds like a very interesting dog nonetheless!. I saw a whippet/husky mix once that just blew my mind. It was the wildest looking dog I've ever seen!.

 

[ceduke]

Completely random...the coydog once chewed through a solid oak door, breaking off three of her teeth in the process. She takes doggy prozac now because she takes separation anxiety to a level I've never seen before.

 

[Ricky87]

Completely random...the coydog once chewed through a solid oak door, breaking off three of her teeth in the process. She takes doggy prozac now because she takes separation anxiety to a level I've never seen before.

Wow, that's quite the mouth-work. Oak doors are no joke!. Sorry to hear that, though; Separation anxiety is one of the toughest things to curb that I've noticed, because it's hard to get them to focus on anything when their in that high-energy state. Some dogs even release their bowels the second the owner leaves. I've seen it a few times on "It's Me or the Dog", and it is not pretty!!. Luckily some dogs are only like that as puppies and they eventually grow out of it, like with Ciana. She used to lose it when Michael would leave, but now she doesn't even leave the couch. Part of it is every time he leaves I say "Drive safe, wear your seat-belt" in my best Ben Stein impersonation to make it seem so boring that it doesn't deserve a whine!. Helps a little!!.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

I think Ceasar Millan works with aggressive and dominant dogs very well, and I agree with all of his methods. As far as I can tell, he never actually hurts dogs at all, simply hold them in place or touches them to get their attention.

I think Victoria Stillwell is very good at teaching dogs tricks and working with fearful or anxious dogs.

So basically they both excel in different areas. lol

I think that a shock collar is unnecessary, there's no effect that a shock collar can have on a dog that you can't have. It seems to me as more of a "lazy mans" way of training dogs. Choke chains are also unnecessary, there nothing a choke chain can do that a normal collar can't... aside from choking a dog.

I also think that's it's perfectly possible that someones dogs never have a significant fight (fight/dominance dispute, whatever) that the owner will ever notice.

Just my 2 cents. >_____>

 

[KJUN]

Enough trying to incite people!. This thread was all about sharing advice into you came in.

Can you not understand why people think Ricky-Micheal is the same person when you continue to put words in each others' mouth? (Ricky is the real culprit with this. Micheal does seem to stand by his posts alone a lot more...and Micheal usually makes 10x the sense that Ricky does.) Go back and check - "you" were logged in under the other nym when you started this post. Maybe "you" should let that persona say what it meant by starting the thread for itself....... and actually cite a STUDY if you claim the links are just studies. Crawfishing when someone points that error out is just embarrassing for you.

Oh, and say whatever you want about "why" the post was started. We all know it was started to say, "I'll start my own thread because people are picking on me in another one." If not for that, maybe it was just so you could TROLL more of the board. It worked, so you win. Congrats. I must admit - you are one of the most successful trolls this board has ever seen.

 

[tsst]

I remember about 14 or 15 years ago, on Howard Stern's Show, he had an electrical device, something like an e-collar, that he used on female guest contestants in a gameshow setting, similar to Jeopardy. They received 'positive' reinforcement for correct answers, if I remember correctly. Just...can't...remember...what the name of that game was...

If it was Howard it had to be something with strippers or hookers! :roflmao:

 

[snakemom1961]

You know...my parents' two dogs have never fought either, or even scuffled. They don't need to. The mini poodle can move the coyote hybrid out of her bed just by looking at her. If he's feeling really bossy he may go lay his head on her shoulder while she is laying down, or bump her out of the way with his hips. She accepts this without question.

It is entirely possible for two dogs to work out a hierarchy without using aggression.

I couldn't agree more. We always had 2 dogs in our house growing up and they figured out the hierarchy between them without fights. it always seemed to be the one who was in the home first, but not always. It is very possible to have more then one dog in a home without fights ever breaking out. I've witnessed it many times over, over the years.