• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Studies on dog behavior!

dog_electro.gif

"I don't like being shocked"
 
Ricky87 said:
That's indoors. Outdoors things are still very new, and who's to say she didn't lie down before she had leave to "say hi" as we call it. He took the picture so I wouldn't know, but please, enough being petty. It sells your own views far short of there intention, and I've done my part in trying to right the train. It's on you guy's to do your part.
Click to expand...
Actually your brother himself said it. Here is his reponse when I said I liked the pic.
Michael823 said:
My Ball Python was definitely more curious, and Ciana was more skeptical. At first she approached all happy go lucky, but then my BP turned and started moving closer to her face and that made her a little uneasy.
Click to expand...
 
Righto, now the professionally trained dog that lays down reactively when presented with a snake was approaching a snake in a happy go lucky manner.
But maybe indoors she would have obeyed her training, because outdoors is all strange to her. I think that's right, but Ricky isn't sure and Michael doesn't collaborate with him because they live together and like some alone time.
 
I'm confused about the dominance thing? I think it's pretty obvious that dogs have a certain hierarchy, and the owners are a part of it. Some dogs are higher than other dogs, it doesn't mean the dominant dog attacks them or anything, it just means that they're more in control, you know? Like, if you where to leave the picture, then the dominant dog would step it.
 
Criosphynx said:
Emily the discussion went from discussion to hostility? What happened? Why are people so insulted when others have results and to help them to do the same.

I asked the behavior and breed in an effort to be friendly and discuss what issues your having. No need to get nasty.

Basically there are many people who want their dogs to be robots. I don't understand why you need your dog to sit when hes sniffing som'thing benine besides to micromanage his life.

Also, just because lots of trainers use your method means nothing...lots of trainers also DON'T use your methods. So whats your point?
Click to expand...

Oh boy, we've got some confusion.

I don't need the dog to sit because he's sitting; the dog is sniffing and I happen to need him to sit. Just because he's busy sniffing, doesn't mean he gets to not sit. Make sense? It has nothing to do with micromanaging - I'm not that type.

I suspected that's why you asked. There are no issues. I'm referring to competitive obedience training, which is my current sport of choice. The dog's house manners and practical obedience are high acceptable and highly reliable already.

The dog is a 4 year old CKC spaniel x golden retriever, as far as I can tell.
 
I guess I need to go back and qualify that if obeying when commands are given is robotic, then I'm guilty. If when"come" means turn on a dime and hurry here NOW, then I'm very guilty. When I give commands, I expect them to be followed - if I know they won't or I can't enforce them, I don't give them.

For some reason I don't feel guilty...
 
I'm with you there then Emily. Surely the whole point of traininga dog is to get it to behave how you want? Each person may have different ideas of which behaviours they want from their dog, but wanting it to ignore your wishes seems a non-starter to me:shrugs:
 
Emily1188 said:
I guess I need to go back and qualify that if obeying when commands are given is robotic, then I'm guilty. If when"come" means turn on a dime and hurry here NOW, then I'm very guilty.
Click to expand...
Me too I guess. If not, I'd be relating the story of a dead JRT that met her first momma raccoon up close and off leash. 12" nose to nose. She's still here because I'm an igorant, uncaring bastard of a dog trainer that expects his dogs to listen and follow directions on my terms. :shrugs:

D80
 
Emily1188 said:
Oh boy, we've got some confusion.

I don't need the dog to sit because he's sitting; the dog is sniffing and I happen to need him to sit. Just because he's busy sniffing, doesn't mean he gets to not sit. Make sense? It has nothing to do with micromanaging - I'm not that type.

I suspected that's why you asked. There are no issues. I'm referring to competitive obedience training, which is my current sport of choice. The dog's house manners and practical obedience are high acceptable and highly reliable already.

The dog is a 4 year old CKC spaniel x golden retriever, as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...

I apologize If I misunderstood you. If we are talking competition obediance...not rally. Then yes I agree that you likely will need to use corrections to get the perfect preformance as an end result. Dog that have been taught behaviors through shaping and capturing will often give results that vary slightly. They will need "cleaning up" after being taught primarily with PR, from what I understand....If you need 100% perfection (and the ring is the only place you will) then I agree with you.

I was thinking you were demanding this of a dog that was simply a pet. I couldn't understand the need for the perfection.

My robot comment wasn't directed at you, it was in general. The average person expects perfection and the dog to basically speak english. They want the dog to have no life beyond obeying them...they want robots.

I guess the difference lies in whether people want dogs to obey because they have too...or because they want too. I like to choose the later. :)
 
Criosphynx said:
If you need 100% perfection (and the ring is the only place you will) then I agree with you.
Click to expand...
I guess I'm going to politely disagree with the wording of this statement.

In the ring you would "want" 100% perfection for you and your dogs own status and glory.

In the field (hunting) you "need" 100% perfection for your dogs safety, health and the conservation of the animals you are hunting.

Wouldn't that be more accurate? :shrugs:
D80
 
Drizzt80 said:
I guess I'm going to politely disagree with the wording of this statement.

In the ring you would "want" 100% perfection for you and your dogs own status and glory.

In the field (hunting) you "need" 100% perfection for your dogs safety, health and the conservation of the animals you are hunting.

Wouldn't that be more accurate? :shrugs:
D80
Click to expand...

You know, the more I think about, the more I agree. But I'm going define a few terms as I use them.

Reliability: The likelihood the dog will respond to a given command, usually defined in percentages.

Precision: The "cleanliness" of the dog's positions and the timeliness of the dog's response.

I don't really use +P (positive punishment - like a leash correction) for precision - it's the +R (positive reinforcement) marker training I use that really helps me there. That's because I reserve +P for command refusal - I honestly don't "clean up" the dog with +P. I cleaned a TERRIBLE down (you know the kind, back legs kicked out to side like she's laying at the pool) by first teaching a "bow" position, and then applying that to the down command to get that nice "fold back" down you need for AKC OB. Punishment was never a factor.

So, even I were only training a pet, I'd still use +P if I found it necessary to achieve a high level of reliability for the basic commands, like recall, heeling, sit, down, and stay. I wouldn't be worried, however, about precision, because it doesn't matter for a pet dog.

So, precision in the ring? Definitely for status and glory. Also for fun, if you're freaking weird like me and you get off on it.

Reliability in everyday life? That's for safety and to me there's just nothing optional about it.

Crystal, Rally-O only has a swing finish (to left), correct?
 
It can...I don't complete in rally yet but I know the rules are more....flexible..for lack of a better word...there is not always a sit with the swing finish. I know of several people who use no corrections and get titles in rally.

Yes, I agree that in the field you would need a higher degree of "perfection" I forget (actually didn't know..lol) that I was taking with field and competition dog owners, that puts a whole new perspective on training the dog.

what do you think is the reason for the command refusal? Stress ,bored, distracted?

I guess the point im trying to make is things can be taught using PR and get a reliable behavior...I respect (tho disagree) your opinion that the dog is deciding to ignore the command...I personally believe that dogs that ignore a known behavior perhaps need microshaping of the behavior or a stronger reinforcement history within the exact context of the "ignored" behavior...basically...more proofing. :)
 
Criosphynx said:
what do you think is the reason for the command refusal? Stress ,bored, distracted?

I guess the point im trying to make is things can be taught using PR and get a reliable behavior...I respect (tho disagree) your opinion that the dog is deciding to ignore the command...I personally believe that dogs that ignore a known behavior perhaps need microshaping of the behavior or a stronger reinforcement history within the exact context of the "ignored" behavior...basically...more proofing. :)
Click to expand...

Mostly "distracted" - if distracted means, "But right now I'd rather" etc, etc, very occasionally bored (although that falls under the "bad human, BAD!" category), never stressed. Understand that I rarely have her refuse a command. And, very, very rarely, lazy and impatient! That has only happened once though.

I think the idea that the failure of an animal to perform commands is solely due to a breakdown/lack of commands is based on outdated science. The behaviorist model has been thrown out for humans! There is a growing body of scientific evidence that A.) contradicts the claims that dogs do little to no social learning, and B.) that dogs do indeed to display cognitive abilities.

But, for the sake of sanity, I can agree to disagree. And for the record, I think we train more alike than different. ;)
 
On that note, a funny dog story for you about the inventiveness of marker trained dogs.

I've recently added a retrieve to my dog's repertoire. Definitely still in the early stages. She fairly consistently moves out to the dowel (a short distance away) on command, and brings it back.

I tossed the dowel out and sent her. She walked to the dowel, turned around, laid down with both front paws on it and wagged her tail. LOL. She was absolutely 100% convinced she was definitely doing it right, and definitely thought a reward was coming. I had to try so hard not to laugh. If I repeated the "fetch" command, she pawed the dowel like, "Yeah, it's RIGHT here!" :rofl:

Needless to say, we went back a few steps. :uhoh:
 
Emily1188 said:
On that note, a funny dog story for you about the inventiveness of marker trained dogs.

I've recently added a retrieve to my dog's repertoire. Definitely still in the early stages. She fairly consistently moves out to the dowel (a short distance away) on command, and brings it back.

I tossed the dowel out and sent her. She walked to the dowel, turned around, laid down with both front paws on it and wagged her tail. LOL. She was absolutely 100% convinced she was definitely doing it right, and definitely thought a reward was coming. I had to try so hard not to laugh. If I repeated the "fetch" command, she pawed the dowel like, "Yeah, it's RIGHT here!" :rofl:

Needless to say, we went back a few steps. :uhoh:
Click to expand...

Very cute...I've seen that "but Im doing it right!" look before...lol:rofl:

Do you ever do free shaping? Omg the things a clicker savy dog can invent...



During a free shap session I've captured my dogs targeting each others noses...its hilarious...they made it up and I rewarded it. Looks like a "smootch"... they will run headlong at each other when you tell them too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top