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Taken a turn for the worst. I need help/advice..
- Thread starter Tula_Montage
- Start date
OK enigma...
just a moment here.. this vets is Den's and as far as I know Toyahs.. so maybe you could advise them the care and treatment they have had in the past is NOT of your standards....
AS for the mouse incident...
Elle and i worked out how it passed... one night at 4am.. CASEY M and i spoke on phone 10 hours later.... i explained it to her... in an hour long convo where i gave her very bit of info i had.. i also said i was going to post it on thread once i had the timelines correct....
i told her i was going to update the RFUK thread... BEEFORE i had the chance... CASEY told NERYS.. the mouse had been in WINDSORS mouth.... a pile of absolute tosh... NERYS then posted.. not giving me the chance to put it across properly...
I swore on my kids lives this is NOT what i said ... i called casey and told her this was rubbish... but does that matter NOPE... and why should ie ven bother justufying myself to a bunch of people who obviously dont care about anything other than making my vets and ,myself and elle out to be insane liars...
I have admitted over and over the mistakes... I trust elle 100% im not raging at her.. she remembered one evening a while after the RFUK thread had begun... she wasnt hiding anything.. she was genuinely devestated and upset after she realised.. so you know what
If you would be beyond anger ( which is what rage is) at a friend of yours who made a mistake then ENIGMA thats your bag.. IT IS NOT my way...
CASEY M even said to me on phone that day.. you can never hide anything Lynn you are to honest....
I DO NOT LIE...
simple... my opinion may differ than yours or anyone elses... but just because I am not in agreement does not make me WRONG or RIGHT...
therefore you are neither wrong or right..
it is opinion...
frankly this continued idiotic posting i am doing to clear up perpetual mess is getting tedious...
i said i was stopping... noone believes me or my vets anyway.... he has been badmouthed.... so any reults that DO come back wil be torn to shreds..
WHY after the way the vets and myself and elle have been spoken about should we give one single more detail...
and do not say.. FOR THE SAKE OF MY SNAKES>>.
because thats just emotional blackmail... i WOULD have posted it for the sake of anyone who was genuinely concerned about their collection and not just tearing me to shreds... but not now
you and everyone else of a smililar opinion have decided they KNOW...
so marvellous for you..
good luck with that
but as i said this thread is going nowhere... its turned into a mess...
just a moment here.. this vets is Den's and as far as I know Toyahs.. so maybe you could advise them the care and treatment they have had in the past is NOT of your standards....
AS for the mouse incident...
Elle and i worked out how it passed... one night at 4am.. CASEY M and i spoke on phone 10 hours later.... i explained it to her... in an hour long convo where i gave her very bit of info i had.. i also said i was going to post it on thread once i had the timelines correct....
i told her i was going to update the RFUK thread... BEEFORE i had the chance... CASEY told NERYS.. the mouse had been in WINDSORS mouth.... a pile of absolute tosh... NERYS then posted.. not giving me the chance to put it across properly...
I swore on my kids lives this is NOT what i said ... i called casey and told her this was rubbish... but does that matter NOPE... and why should ie ven bother justufying myself to a bunch of people who obviously dont care about anything other than making my vets and ,myself and elle out to be insane liars...
I have admitted over and over the mistakes... I trust elle 100% im not raging at her.. she remembered one evening a while after the RFUK thread had begun... she wasnt hiding anything.. she was genuinely devestated and upset after she realised.. so you know what
If you would be beyond anger ( which is what rage is) at a friend of yours who made a mistake then ENIGMA thats your bag.. IT IS NOT my way...
CASEY M even said to me on phone that day.. you can never hide anything Lynn you are to honest....
I DO NOT LIE...
simple... my opinion may differ than yours or anyone elses... but just because I am not in agreement does not make me WRONG or RIGHT...
therefore you are neither wrong or right..
it is opinion...
frankly this continued idiotic posting i am doing to clear up perpetual mess is getting tedious...
i said i was stopping... noone believes me or my vets anyway.... he has been badmouthed.... so any reults that DO come back wil be torn to shreds..
WHY after the way the vets and myself and elle have been spoken about should we give one single more detail...
and do not say.. FOR THE SAKE OF MY SNAKES>>.
because thats just emotional blackmail... i WOULD have posted it for the sake of anyone who was genuinely concerned about their collection and not just tearing me to shreds... but not now
you and everyone else of a smililar opinion have decided they KNOW...
so marvellous for you..
good luck with that
but as i said this thread is going nowhere... its turned into a mess...
enigma
New member
well thats your decision. quite frankly i dont and never have had any interest in your results, but i think there may be some people that might. you brought this into the open, its up to you to lay it to bed.
i have very stringent standards when it comes to my animals and reps. my vet got my rabbit through mixi, when other vets would have put him to sleep. that he cares enough to try is enough for me. my rep vet is the same. i took a snake to him expecting him to put her to sleep, he said lets give it a try, you know what, she gets stronger every time i look at her.
we were discussing husbandry and feeding before you came on again spouting, oh everyones getting on at me........if the cap fits wear it.
i have very stringent standards when it comes to my animals and reps. my vet got my rabbit through mixi, when other vets would have put him to sleep. that he cares enough to try is enough for me. my rep vet is the same. i took a snake to him expecting him to put her to sleep, he said lets give it a try, you know what, she gets stronger every time i look at her.
we were discussing husbandry and feeding before you came on again spouting, oh everyones getting on at me........if the cap fits wear it.
Tula_Montage
It's Jager time!
Enigma, I don't know who you think you are, but you blatantly have an agenda. Perhaps because in reality, this situation has affected you or hit home in some way shape or form. Perhaps it has induced some self realisation. I know it certainly has for me.
My herp vet is also the vet to a multitude of herps in central Scotland, including many well known and respected Scottish breeders. Now why don't you tell them to go get a new vet?
The information Nerys provided was merely hearsay, from her chum Casey M. Lynn was going to post on the RFUK thread later than evening to say hands up what myself and her had done wrong. But please remember this... Windsors illness could be completely unrelated to Shug and Elysiums. As our herp vet so rightly pointed out. A huge coincidence but 100% possible. I don't think you or anyone can rule out ANY possibility of anything at the moment. That would be a bit ridiculous.
The fact is, the information Nerys posted was incorrect in some parts, and I can safley say that myself AND Lynn have cleared this up time and time again. My stick broke on the horses back a long time ago and it is now merely a splinter.
My herp vet is also the vet to a multitude of herps in central Scotland, including many well known and respected Scottish breeders. Now why don't you tell them to go get a new vet?
The information Nerys provided was merely hearsay, from her chum Casey M. Lynn was going to post on the RFUK thread later than evening to say hands up what myself and her had done wrong. But please remember this... Windsors illness could be completely unrelated to Shug and Elysiums. As our herp vet so rightly pointed out. A huge coincidence but 100% possible. I don't think you or anyone can rule out ANY possibility of anything at the moment. That would be a bit ridiculous.
The fact is, the information Nerys posted was incorrect in some parts, and I can safley say that myself AND Lynn have cleared this up time and time again. My stick broke on the horses back a long time ago and it is now merely a splinter.
toyah
Snakes in designer genes
Different people feel temperatures in different ways, I agree - that's why I use thermometers with min/max settings to check ambient temperatures, rather than just saying "do you think it's a bit too hot or cold in here?". It removes any ambiguity, so I have no need to ask people their opinion on my snake room's temperature.
The MSN conversation you referred to took place on the 23rd October, rather than the beginning of September. I was generally annoyed, at finding out that private emails had been sent saying apparently "everyone agrees" my snake room was too cold. I never asked you, I never implicated you as being part of silent, nameless, and anonymous group of people, none of whom have come forward to say "actually, I think all your thermometers are wrong, and it's all too cold". You, without prompting, offered the information that you'd said my house was "baltic".
You remembered someone had specifically asked you if my house was cold, but you didn't remember who. I then blocked you at MSN on your request, as you felt that due to the stress between Elle and I, you felt it better we stayed off each other's MSN lists.
If it's not the truth, it's useless - the very point of me wanting to know and get to the bottom of this is the fact that it has been said repeatedly that this was my issue, caused by me. If it was my fault - then it's my fault, and I need to ensure that I rectify any issues present here. If it's not - then I need to know that too, so I can quit worrying and feeling guilty about the whole affair. This is one of the main reasons I wish to speak to the vet involved about the case, to clarify many of the statements made here.
Well, quite. No-one can say 100% that tiny donut shaped space monsters from Jupiter didn't have anything to do with his demise either - but it's about finding out the probabilities, likelyhoods, and direct causes and correlation between different events to find out the issue. As I said previously, I have no issue at all accepting that the immune system of a sporadically feeding animal may be lower than you'd expect. What I would like clarification on whole thing, which as a layperson and not a vet I don't understand clearly yet. This is why I asked some of the questions I put forward in posts 314 and 333 of this thread.
There is a middle ground though, isn't there? People take snakes to meetings and show them off, yes - but that is their own choice to make after evaluating the pros and cons of their actions. Animals do not live in a vacuum, and the normal background bacteria on a person's hands is not going to harm a healthy animal. I am sure I could keep my snakes almost completely sterile, but since when is a completely unchallenged immune system a good thing to have? As long as people aren't passing around known unhealthy snakes, or snakes that have been exposed to ill snakes, then the risk is really minimal. We have a community built around the hobby because we enjoy it, and talking to people about and seeing different animals.
No. It started off as a vendetta about whose fault it was that Windsor became ill and died - from the moment Elle first revealed privately to me that he had a respiratory infection, to continued digs and comments on forums, to private emails to other parties claiming the cause was that my snake room was too cold.
At first, I said absolutely nothing publically - I felt that it would be inappropriate to challenge Elle when she had just had to have her snake put to sleep. I knew how upset I was over the whole thing (remember I had owned and spent a hell of a lot of time with Windsor for eight months - I was upset over an animal I cared for dying as well), and I imagined Elle felt just as bad. But now some time has passed, and I just want to get to the bottom of it.
It's not a vendetta anymore. People just want information because it was promised, because of the implications it has for other owners and breeders after a potential viral outbreak was claimed. The only point at which you could stretch to a claim of your vet being bad mouthed was after you said he had made a mistake by doing testing after giving antibiotics to Shug - which was fair comment.
If you and Elle don't want to give any more details, then don't. But please, please, please, could you two give your vet permission to speak to at least me, as Windsor's previous owner, about his case, in order for me to clarify and learn about what happened, and for my own peace of mind. I don't feel that's too much to ask, and I know your vet would not mind at all.
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enigma
New member
this has not brought realisation home to me, because i am scrupulous in the husbandry of my snakes. i always have been and i always will be. i do not take chances with any of them. they rely on me 100% and i would never ever let them down. you dont know who i think i am? you dont need to know.
snakewispera snr
The Devils Advocate
I have been following this thread (reading and re-reading) since it started.
I think feelings are running high,as it started out as an epidemic sweeping the U.K. reptile world ,which sent the herp market into melt down for a while ( all hail the internet).
As a result of the first alarmist post I think you owe everyone the results when you get them.
And as far as not having the time to ask the vet all the questions everyone is asking, surly they are the questions you should be asking aswell.
Why not scan the autopsy and let everyone see the original, maybe some dont need it in laymans terms and can read it for themselves. After all a second opinion wouldn't do any harm.
MIKE
I think feelings are running high,as it started out as an epidemic sweeping the U.K. reptile world ,which sent the herp market into melt down for a while ( all hail the internet).
As a result of the first alarmist post I think you owe everyone the results when you get them.
And as far as not having the time to ask the vet all the questions everyone is asking, surly they are the questions you should be asking aswell.
Why not scan the autopsy and let everyone see the original, maybe some dont need it in laymans terms and can read it for themselves. After all a second opinion wouldn't do any harm.
MIKE
Jrgh17
Are we there yet?
Why are people playing the blame game? It has absolutely no point anymore. Except, of course, to take up time.
Windsor died. Other snakes are sick. It's happening, and chewing someone out is not going to change that. Would people stop if Elle/Lynn broke down and exclaimed about how wrong she was? Probably not. So what exactly are you trying for?
Elle has clearly been kicking herself since Windsor got sick. She's done it enough for everyone. She's down, and absolutely nothing is to be gained from beating her up while she's on the floor.
NO ONE IS PERFECT. If you maintain that your husbandry is 100% at all times, you are either lying or deluded.
About 90% of this entire thread is unnecessary garbage. A lesson has been learned, and nobody needs to have their face ground in it. Frankly, the only reason I have not unsubscribed to this thread long ago is because I care about little Windsor and I want to know what happened to him.
Giving someone the finger, whether pointing at them or otherwise, has absolutely no purpose other than selfish motives and irrational beliefs.
Windsor died. Other snakes are sick. It's happening, and chewing someone out is not going to change that. Would people stop if Elle/Lynn broke down and exclaimed about how wrong she was? Probably not. So what exactly are you trying for?
Elle has clearly been kicking herself since Windsor got sick. She's done it enough for everyone. She's down, and absolutely nothing is to be gained from beating her up while she's on the floor.
NO ONE IS PERFECT. If you maintain that your husbandry is 100% at all times, you are either lying or deluded.
About 90% of this entire thread is unnecessary garbage. A lesson has been learned, and nobody needs to have their face ground in it. Frankly, the only reason I have not unsubscribed to this thread long ago is because I care about little Windsor and I want to know what happened to him.
Giving someone the finger, whether pointing at them or otherwise, has absolutely no purpose other than selfish motives and irrational beliefs.
enigma
New member
i think trying to blame a third person and not disclosing at the time thier own mistake may have something to do with it. its fine to say oh we were going to post that later after you have been caught out.
yeah right. there is no way that would have been posted if nerys hadnt found it out.
yeah right. there is no way that would have been posted if nerys hadnt found it out.
Roy Munson
New member
I agree, and if the garbage doesn't stop, I'll just lock this thread. Enough is enough. If you really want to see the final results posted, then don't jeopardize this thread's existence by continuing with the accusatory and inflammatory posting. I mean it.
Tula_Montage
It's Jager time!
No, I can't actually.
I have indeed contacted my vet since then, and I am perfectly aware of what I have to do and where I go from here. Thats all for now. I will post all results together when I have them.
snakewispera snr
The Devils Advocate
I've spoken to my herp vet (she's my facebook buddy) and she'll decipher any hard words in the autopsy results, if that will help you get to the bottom of this mystery..
MIKE
MIKE
suecornish
New member
Sorry, people, but you all are making it harder and harder for me to come onto this web site and get info. You (no-one in particular) beat a dead horse until it's atoms are smashed to smitherines. Elle and those involved are devistated by their loses, reconize that there were mistakes and are trying to go forward and some of you just want to "beat blame" on those who have already admitted they were in error.
Elle, please e-mail me with the results when you can. I'll give you my private e-mail address in a PM. I don't think I'll be frequenting this web site because the blame laying and finger pointing out weigh the constructive info.
sue cornish
Elle, please e-mail me with the results when you can. I'll give you my private e-mail address in a PM. I don't think I'll be frequenting this web site because the blame laying and finger pointing out weigh the constructive info.
sue cornish
Nanci
Alien Lover
In this one thread. I think it all spilled over to cs.com from another place. Thanks a lot.
Tula_Montage
It's Jager time!
Nanci, I did not want any arguments to start on cs.com. I adore this site, and have already apologized to moderators for this being dragged to cs.com.
Unfortunately due to the amount of abuse on RFUK I was no longer willing to post there. I have frequently asked for the thread to be locked, but I can understand why its not been done.
I will not appologise on the behalf of other people who have only come into this thread with an agenda, however I do appologise for taking the bait and clearly justifying and correcting their mistakes or discrepancies.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
"...I don't think I'll be frequenting this web site because the blame laying and finger pointing out weigh the constructive info..."
You might have meant to say "thread" instead of website...I hope so. It does seem a bit unfair to discredit the whole site mainly because of one thread, especially considering that a number of participants in this thread are not regular CS contributors or long term members here.
You might have meant to say "thread" instead of website...I hope so. It does seem a bit unfair to discredit the whole site mainly because of one thread, especially considering that a number of participants in this thread are not regular CS contributors or long term members here.