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Testing for Stargazing

It's the same sort of fixation as those who want to decrease mitral valve disease in King Charles Cavalier Spaniels, hip dysplasia in goldens, german shepherds, and english shepherds, epilepsy in border collies, wobblers in rotties, Von Willebrand in dobermans, etc. It's everywhere in them... but the way to decrease the incidence rate is to test, and not breed any that either have the condition, or have produced puppies with the condition.
 
I think Rich was meaning what's with sudden fixation on SG.

Testing has been going on for years, the problem is not new, the testing is not new, and the preventative measures are not new.
 
I'd say the issue is going to potentially affect far more people due to the crossing of SK ( and potentially SG) into so many projects. I'm probably going to be viewed as alarmist but to me all those untested offspring are just going to cause a lot of unsuspecting people heartache in the future
 
I agree Janine, but testing all snakes is a hard thing to do and not everyone knows their snakes ancestry. There will be projects that will be met with disappointment when stargazers show up.
 
JoannaD said:
I agree Janine, but testing all snakes is a hard thing to do and not everyone knows their snakes ancestry. There will be projects that will be met with disappointment when stargazers show up.
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Yup, totally. Such a bad situation.
 
JoannaD said:
I agree Janine, but testing all snakes is a hard thing to do and not everyone knows their snakes ancestry. There will be projects that will be met with disappointment when stargazers show up.
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Quite honestly, if someone cannot bear up under disappointment and heartbreak, then breeding any animals is really not a suitable pastime for them. I cannot recall ANY hatching season where I did not have much more than my share of disappointing results. Whether it be from gene combos that defied statistics, deformities, babies that were exquisite looking for refused to feed, infertile clutches being laid, clutches that just did not hatch, eggs laid in the water dishes instead of the nice egg laying box, females getting eggbound, females prolapsing their oviducts, etc., etc., etc., this sort of activity is just chock full of "downer days". Heck, one year I had a REALLY nice female Lavender Stripe that somehow got her head stuck between the lid and bottom of her egg laying box and strangled herself.

If anything, I would have to say that if someone has had doubts in the past about the benefits of outcrossing your animals and limit inbreeding as much as possible, then SG certainly will be incentive to pay much more attention to this regimen in your breeding plans.

One in four chance of Stargazing from bonafide hets which can be absolutely reduced by an outcrossing regimen? Seriously, that is NOTHING compared to everything else you have to deal with breeding these critters. Why some people are trying to claim that this is a "sky is falling" event just seems kind of odd to me. Makes me wonder where the "hook" is on that particular fishing line... ;)
 
dave partington said:
Like amel, anery, ultra, or any other gene can be bred out? :sidestep:
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Yes, they can, if you really WANT to do that. You CAN reduce the odds that they will show up. If the gene does show up, you just mark the card for those animals and never breed them again. Eventually the gene will be gone, at least from your stock. It will take time, of course, but otherwise, what are your alternatives? Using test breedings to produce babies looking for the gene and then with ALL of the resulting offspring:

Nanci said:
Cull or give away.
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Yeah, that's the ticket. Test breed ALL of your adults for at least three years to be even then MAYBE somewhat sure that they are SG free and kill off or give away all of your produced babies during that time. So how do you enforce any guarantee from the people getting these freebies that they won't somehow eventually wind up in someone else's breeding group? Two words: "You can't". So unless you kill every one of the offspring, you are just wasting everyone's time, and YOUR efforts, with that "testing" if you believe you are helping to rid the world of SG.

I doubt that anyone with more than 6 producing females will seriously consider doing this sort of destructive testing. Even with just 6 females, you are talking about likely 80+ babies EACH YEAR YOU TEST that you have to just kill outright, regardless of the results you get. And if someone is actually in BUSINESS selling corn snakes with lots more adults? Not a chance.... Remember you CAN'T just test Sunkisseds. That barn door was left wide open way too long for that. You have to test them ALL.

To be perfectly honest, it seems to me that to be purposely breeding snakes to produce babies that you MUST kill is kind of backwards and totally at odds with the reason that most people would even want to breed corn snakes. Seriously, what's the POINT of even engaging in this sort of activity if you are so afraid of getting this "boogie man" gene that you would kill off dozens, and possibly hundreds of baby corn snakes in that pursuit? Multiply this by EVERYONE scared of and testing for this gene, and what do you have, THOUSANDS of baby corn snakes killed because of this testing? For crying out loud, just get some other hobby to play with and STOP breeding corns if this worries you so much.....
 
And....

There ya go wise words from a man who has been actually breeding corns longer then or at least as long as anyone else has...;):twoguns:
 
nmoore601 said:
Prolapsing. Can acfemale be productive after that?
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None of mine ever have. In most cases I felt the humane thing to do was to euthanize them. Otherwise you likely have severe infection to have to deal with, and they would likely die a rather painful death. Most people are not going to have the equipment and experience to perform a successful surgery, and likely not have an experienced vet nearby neither.

For the record, I did try sending animals to a vet to deal with egg binding and prolapsed oviducts. When 80 percent of them died anyway, and I got socked with a pretty hefty bill for that effort, that ended that practice.
 
Thanks rich I had an old snow do it last year. She has not been right. It looked as if the eggs were inside a sack . I made a small incision on sack to remove the eggs . All eggs went bad. The snow female was left with three inches of the sack hanging from the cloacha . No vets near by would fool with the snake . Is this what you refer to as prolapsing? She eats sparaticley and weight fluctuates . She didn't ovulate this year . What do you think the best options are for this situation ? Also why do you think the eggs went bad? When first layed they appeared pearly white , then quickly went bad? There was also a bloodish film on eggs. Have you ever experienced this type of thing.
 
Rich Z said:
I guess I just don't understand the fixation on SG. When people get these SGs for testing, what do they do with the resulting offspring from this testing?
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This could be looking too much into it, but this *could be* where it is stemming from...

nmoore601 said:
I will use ACR and my snakes are registered. Babies sold will be registered. Anything SK or has sunkissed is or has been tested. In the future I feel this will determine who a person buys from. By no means am I saying anyone is wrong or telling them how to manage there collections. I was just throwing out what practice is carried out at Cloud 9 Corns.
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The mere thought that a seller would be "preferred" because they test their lines is ridiculous. There could be a number of reasons why someone might purchase from a particular seller. A very simple example would be routine care and maintenance. Sorry, not buying the preferred seller statement.
 
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Rich Z said:
Yes, they can, if you really WANT to do that. You CAN reduce the odds that they will show up. If the gene does show up, you just mark the card for those animals and never breed them again. Eventually the gene will be gone, at least from your stock. It will take time, of course, but otherwise, what are your alternatives? Using test breedings to produce babies looking for the gene and then with ALL of the resulting offspring:



Yeah, that's the ticket. Test breed ALL of your adults for at least three years to be even then MAYBE somewhat sure that they are SG free and kill off or give away all of your produced babies during that time. So how do you enforce any guarantee from the people getting these freebies that they won't somehow eventually wind up in someone else's breeding group? Two words: "You can't". So unless you kill every one of the offspring, you are just wasting everyone's time, and YOUR efforts, with that "testing" if you believe you are helping to rid the world of SG.

I doubt that anyone with more than 6 producing females will seriously consider doing this sort of destructive testing. Even with just 6 females, you are talking about likely 80+ babies EACH YEAR YOU TEST that you have to just kill outright, regardless of the results you get. And if someone is actually in BUSINESS selling corn snakes with lots more adults? Not a chance.... Remember you CAN'T just test Sunkisseds. That barn door was left wide open way too long for that. You have to test them ALL.

To be perfectly honest, it seems to me that to be purposely breeding snakes to produce babies that you MUST kill is kind of backwards and totally at odds with the reason that most people would even want to breed corn snakes. Seriously, what's the POINT of even engaging in this sort of activity if you are so afraid of getting this "boogie man" gene that you would kill off dozens, and possibly hundreds of baby corn snakes in that pursuit? Multiply this by EVERYONE scared of and testing for this gene, and what do you have, THOUSANDS of baby corn snakes killed because of this testing? For crying out loud, just get some other hobby to play with and STOP breeding corns if this worries you so much.....
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This is pretty much what I was saying. Just worded much better from a much wiser person. In the snake world any gene can be breed out with out crossing and very good record keeping. Yes even SG and yes it make take years to really feel/guaranty that you have breed it out of your collection.

I dont see how anyone can love a animal/snake so much to breed them and destroy the offspring no matter the out come. Think about the females you are putting through the stress of being gravid, laying a clutch of eggs and then trying to build back up her body mass just to test and destroy. How many breeder females in the process are you going to pull from your lines/die do to egg binding, infertility, to much weight loss and cant recoupe or finding SG in them. The breeding process on a female is very very stressful.

OUT CROSS!!! KEEP GOOD RECORDS!!!
 
crackerhead said:
For those that think the general public really wants SG free snakes, I question this based on my own experience in trying to sell them. Connie and Chuck have been testing for years. They have offered proven gazer free animals. The sad part about that is that very few people appreciate the effort involved in this undertaking and even fewer want to pay for the results. I have had a stunning gazer free male SK on my table at every show since Tinley (at least two shows a month every month). Chuck gave it to me to sell; a way to test the market for such animals. People have purchased other SK animals before the Gazer Free simply on price alone. We are talking a $15-$20 difference; sad really.
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Just in case the question was not answered already, I thought I'd throw it out there (again?) to the breeders who decide to test all their sunkissed stock - Do you plan on charging a premium for lines that have been tested (for a year, 2 years, 3 years, etc.)? At what point do you think it is ok to start selling from a certain line? I mean, they are technically always going to be p/het stargazer (as far as officially trying to declare them stargazer free). How do you recover the cost of testing for all those years? As Terri stated from experience, the average buyer will not pay more for your "tested" line when they can get the same sunkissed from someone else at a lower price.
 
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