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The US flag is offensive ...

I am soooo glad I didn't get into this one ;)

Ya know, it actually hasn't been all that bad so far. Both sides have had (I like to think) good arguments, and have provided food for thought. That's really the whole purpose of a debate. There hasn't really been a whole lot of name-slinging... well, I don't know about spades and what-not, but they seem harmless enough.
 
Nova, I knew it was only a matter of time before you showed up to stir the pot. Usually when you do, it's a matter of a very few posts before a fight breaks out. But I'll see if I can keep this civil.

Your first response to me is a personal attack? Awesome.

Let's see... the cost of illegal immigration so far JUST in Los Angeles County:



Hmmm... sounds like all those illegal immigrants and their tons of babies are really capitalizing on a system that was set up to help US CITIZENS. That's a hell of a lot of money that could be used to help AMERICAN families in need. Not border hoppers.

Oh, and Nova, sure the Jews complain. But they're doing it on their own turf. They're not coming over here and demanding that we pay them exorbitant amounts of money for the "advancement" of their people because they feel "oppressed" from something that happened hundreds of years ago.

Oh, and as far as the US not funding any African nations, what do you call Feed the Children? The Christian Children's Fund? And all of those other "wonderful" organizations that people send money to to "sponsor" the little African children? How many millions of dollars are contributed to them? Does that not count?

To respond to your last remark, basically, I have a lot more experience than you give me credit for. Sure, I'm just 20 years old. What do I know? What I know is based on figures that I have seen; articles I have read (but cannot for the life of me find at the moment); personal experiences I have had. It's not just some willy-nilly crap I'm pulling out of my wazoo.

"Those illegal immigrants and their tons of babies." I love it, Robbie. I really do.

Actually, you know what, it. I'm tired of this.
 
Hmmm... sounds like all those illegal immigrants and their tons of babies are really capitalizing on a system that was set up to help US CITIZENS. That's a hell of a lot of money that could be used to help AMERICAN families in need. Not border hoppers.

Oh, and Nova, sure the Jews complain. But they're doing it on their own turf. They're not coming over here and demanding that we pay them exorbitant amounts of money for the "advancement" of their people because they feel "oppressed" from something that happened hundreds of years ago.

Oh, and as far as the US not funding any African nations, what do you call Feed the Children? The Christian Children's Fund? And all of those other "wonderful" organizations that people send money to to "sponsor" the little African children? How many millions of dollars are contributed to them? Does that not count?

To respond to your last remark, basically, I have a lot more experience than you give me credit for. Sure, I'm just 20 years old. What do I know? What I know is based on figures that I have seen; articles I have read (but cannot for the life of me find at the moment); personal experiences I have had. It's not just some willy-nilly crap I'm pulling out of my wazoo.


Are you fuking serious!!!! you sound like an uneducated ignorant individual..Ive been reading your post in regards to this story and you just sound like a straight out ignoranous...Im Mexican if you havent noticed and yes sometimes we come to th US illegally but not to just have tons of babies and take advantage of this system that I love but to work hard and be somebody..You get brainwash like everyone else that thinks that immigrats are the problem...
and by the way Rich if you reading this nonsense can you close this thread already.....
 
Racism has tarnished every civilization not just blacks, jews, hispanics, and others we deem "minorities". My family is from Sicily a small country that was raveged by the Moores who were black and yet I hope no ill feelings toward them. They didn't rape, burn, pillage, and kill me- but my ancestors can't say the same. There are no holidays for sicilians, college funds, reparations, or public appologies and no I don't feel like I need one because these exact things are what fuel racism in our society. When a society gives special allowances for any class, race, gender, or religion that group developes a sense of entitlement because that society at one point entitled them to something others outside of that group couldn't have which is the definition of racism and discrimination. Anything that separates one group from another discriminates plain and simple!
If we look at the history of slavery from beginning to end concerning blacks we would see their own African governments at the time originally sold them to us in exchange for goods- though yes after the fact we brutally took them from their homes and enslaved them illegally. However, since when were blacks the only slaves in society? Can anyone name a society who did not enslave their people or others from foreign countries at some point in history? Is slavery even comparable to the hollocaust or the brutality and gorilla warfare alive in Africa today from their own people?
And what the hell is an African-American anyway. Am I a Sicilian American because thats where my ancestors are from? Putting anything in front of the word American implies you immigrated here from another country and THEN became an American citizen. As long as we use fancy words and have fancy associations geared toward any one race we will have racism.
Rickael: Seeing as you have so much time and energy on your hands and the obvious use of them maybe you should endeavor into the real world, get a job, and form logical perspective. Your views on the world are so one sided and restricted its kinda sad. I am not saying we live in a completely racially tolerant society either, but blacks are not the only race that is discriminated against by a long shot- just the ones that yell the loudest and get the most recognition. Our PC policies are shaping a society where everything is insensitive, rude, and wrong unless it is directed at the white man and then its o.k because after all whites have it so easy, already have it all, and don't deserve respect because their ancetors MAY have been slave owners, ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Are you fuking serious!!!! you sound like an uneducated ignorant individual..Ive been reading your post in regards to this story and you just sound like a straight out ignoranous...Im Mexican if you havent noticed and yes sometimes we come to th US illegally but not to just have tons of babies and take advantage of this system that I love but to work hard and be somebody..You get brainwash like everyone else that thinks that immigrats are the problem...
and by the way Rich if you reading this nonsense can you close this thread already.....
I agree about taking offense to some of what he said, and all, but in all fairness he isn't an "un-educated ignoramous", and he has said that he respects people who are in America "the right way". If he wanted to be racist he most definitely could be. I've heard racist "ignoramous's", and he isn't one at all. Even though he might be expressive about certain things, he has expressed his opinion in full, however it may be taken, and if you just put things out in a less aggressive form I'm sure he'd be willing to respond..

I personally believe that labeling him an "ignoramous" puts him in the spot of not caring to fully express his views at all, because why elaborate when the interpretation never changes. Respect him for his time in the subject, and hope to shed some light on the situation. Just my opinion, but I'm sure in his heart he has equal views, and being inflammatory was not his intent!.
 
The late Queen Mother of England, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, is the authoress of one of my favorite quotes.
To paraphrase,...'while at table, never discuss religion, politics, or the servants'.
(And for 'servants', I think class distinction or ethnicity can be easily substituted.)
I loved her.

http://www.nndb.com/people/854/000068650/

So when I find myself unable to obey her sage and stoic admonition, I earnestly endeavour to keep an open mind, and things on the lighter side.
 
Rickael: Seeing as you have so much time and energy on your hands and the obvious use of them maybe you should endeavor into the real world, get a job, and form logical perspective. Your views on the world are so one sided and restricted its kinda sad. I am not saying we live in a completely racially tolerant society either, but blacks are not the only race that is discriminated against by a long shot- just the ones that yell the loudest and get the most recognition. Our PC policies are shaping a society where everything is insensitive, rude, and wrong unless it is directed at the white man and then its o.k because after all whites have it so easy, already have it all, and don't deserve respect because their ancetors MAY have been slave owners, ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!
Whoa, talk about ridiculous!. I've heard your views on race, and welfare, and disabilities, and I'm utterly convinced you have no desire to change them, so where all this is coming from who knows. I speak from the heart, and when I look in the mirror I see myself in full. Society doesn't fragment my views, and I am only to willing to hear the views of people who state their opinions from the heart, as well. I really was listening to Robbie, and he definitely is capable of listening and expressing without the toxicity, but I guess those folk are few and far between. As for Rickael, that's as provocative as it get's. Clearly a tactic, nonetheless, and I pray your views don't prevent those in the "well-spoken" diaspera to distance themselves from anything contentous. Topics like these are important for growth if we stay civil, but my advice for you is to just stare in the mirror. Look at your own eyes and ask yourself how real YOU keep it. Do you speak to listen, or do you just listen to yourself speak?. We're all cool in front of a computer, but beyond that if your own hypocracy prevents you from gaining truth in knowledge than what exactly is YOUR goal in all this?. To gain Sicillian-American rights?. To dis-prove a peoples suffering?. Both seem selfish to me, and neither adds any substance to what I feel was a healthy discussion!.
 
The late Queen Mother of England, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, is the authoress of one of my favorite quotes.
To paraphrase,...'while at table, never discuss religion, politics, or the servants'. I loved her.
So when I find myself unable to obey her sage and stoic admonition, I earnestly endeavour to keep an open mind, and things on the lighter side.
I take it the Queen Mother of England never had broadband. Woe is me!!!.
 
The best way to eliminate the issue of people having too many kids is to outlaw Catholicism.....but that's just me.
How would that help anything? AND it would be in violation of the constitution.

Nova, I knew it was only a matter of time before you showed up to stir the pot. Usually when you do, it's a matter of a very few posts before a fight breaks out. But I'll see if I can keep this civil.

At least it hasn't started yet.. But it seems like issues like this always turn into brawls..

Oh, and as far as the US not funding any African nations, what do you call Feed the Children? The Christian Children's Fund? And all of those other "wonderful" organizations that people send money to to "sponsor" the little African children? How many millions of dollars are contributed to them? Does that not count?

True. There are so many charitys helping african children, yet they don't count as anything? millions if not billions of dollars are poured every year into "helping" children in africa. But I kind of wonder how much money actually goes to them..


There is way more stuff I could talk about here, but 1. it would just intensify the chance of an all out war, even though I would be civil.
2. I'm getting tired...
 
since it looks like everyone commenting on this is online, I think we should all go to chat for a quick disscussion.. of course, that is if everyone sees this in time...
 
CS124, excellent idea, but I'm too old and slow to follow chat.
Besides, y'all might, in the faster pace, draw more out of me than I want to be drawn. :D
(Which is why, in general, I censor myself and soften my dialogue : by staying out of chat.)
 
LOLOL. I suspect the sweet old dowager was protected from much of the ugliness and controversies of the modern world. Lucky her, hunh?!
Ain't that the truth...Dowager!. I'm not sure what that is but I'm definitely calling my brother that the next time he looks at me the wrong way!.
 
Are you fuking serious!!!! you sound like an uneducated ignorant individual..Ive been reading your post in regards to this story and you just sound like a straight out ignoranous...Im Mexican if you havent noticed and yes sometimes we come to th US illegally but not to just have tons of babies and take advantage of this system that I love but to work hard and be somebody..You get brainwash like everyone else that thinks that immigrats are the problem...
and by the way Rich if you reading this nonsense can you close this thread already.....

Did you happen to read that article I posted?

Please DON'T equate those who are here legally with those who are not, and those who make an effort to live within their means and those who, obviously, don't.

Considering the fact that the article I referenced was published 2 weeks ago, would you consider the writer of THAT an ignoramous?

According to the latest data, the percentage growth of Hispanics slowed from 4.0 percent in 2001 to 3.2 percent last year; their slowed population growth would have been greater if it weren't for their high fertility - nearly 10 births for every death.

So, since policies changed, and therefore there is a less-amenable climate for finding work here in the U.S. to earn money, fewer new adults are present. However, their population still grew because they have 10 births to every death.

Would you prefer that I find additional information about welfare percentages? Would that make it seem less like Robbie was jumping on you?

Also, the term HISPANICS can be applied to a LARGE slice of people, including a large number of otherwise-considered-Caucasian people. As no distinction is made between who is from Mexico and who is from El Salvador, or Brazil, or what have you, in the Census that is the source of this information, all references to Hispanics ARE NOT DIRECTED at Mexicans by default!

Ricky, you may want to look up dowager, a term applied to older, well to do ladies, before you call your brother that, unless fisticuffs is your desired result.

Now, anyone want to join me in looking up the unfairness/cruelty involved in Indentured Servitude? You know, the poor white immigrant's form of slavery, where the person responsible for bringing a poor person over from Europe/UK worked them until they considered the *debt paid* for the crossing?

Just a thought.

There is a really fine line between assuring the betterment of those in poverty, or those in a rough situation, or those from working families, who may have a common situation such as the same skin color, to using quotas. Why can't all decisions be BASED on merit, and then FINANCIAL AID be divided into subsets for those who need it based on other conditions? Why ISN'T there a UNCF, a college fund for those of Indian, Asian, Appalachian, Midwest, Future Farmers of America, etc etc etc, where each group tries to involve themselves in the education process before admissions?

Why aren't all decisions based on who has higher grades and test scores? Why don't representatives from the UNCF show up at high schools, in neighborhoods, to tutor and assist in the decision making process to make sure that we aren't fullfilling a quota, but that we are CREATING THE MERIT?!?

Once they get in, they can apply for scholarships that meet their needs. Like women can. Like people that grew up on farms, like people from certain counties, like people with certain interests can. But why determine that you need a CERTAIN PERCENTAGE of people of a particular race, DISCOUNTING MERIT? Why is no one assuring the merit?

Why is this similar with hiring practices? Why is there a PERCENTAGE required for some companies of minorities? What is WRONG with requesting that it be MERIT BASED, and offer programs to INCREASE MERIT FOR EVERYONE?!?

GAH!

Affirmative Action is a great IDEA. A great THEORY. But they have taken the lazy way out. Instead of making sure that everyone has the ability to compete for a job, for a spot in college, which would be the way to not ONLY advance one's race, but EMPOWER those who have been through it to succeed by evening the playing field, by CATCHING them up to speed if need be, we say *percentage of minorites in the population is X. We need to have the same percentage* and thereby DIVIDE the applicants according to race! Sure, there are those in EVERY category who have made the grade. Fit the bill. COMPETE for the spot... But what about those lower down? Can anyone ASSURE me that spots for people like Robbie AREN'T taken by those less qualified, since we have turned to a QUOTA SYSTEM? I can't. I honestly can't be sure.

That's the whole point of this debate. The actions taken to make sure that others are able to rise above are not being DONE correctly. Honestly, what is more effective, waiting until someone applies for college to go *OH! LOOKIE! We should help you since you're Black! White! Green with Purple Polkadots!" OR...

Should we be showing up in elementary school, improving our schools in ALL areas, and EMPOWERING them to compete BEFORE that application is sent in? Challenging them?

Can you honestly tell me, any of you, that this is NOT the right way to handle it... and that quotas are BETTER?!?

Crazy Unmarried Bisexual Adopted White Woman with Kids. Take me as you will.

I wish I knew my background. I don't. Oh well. Enjoy it, those who do. I just get to guess at what yellow-tinted skin means for the rest of my life. :)
 
Are you fuking serious!!!! you sound like an uneducated ignorant individual..Ive been reading your post in regards to this story and you just sound like a straight out ignoranous...Im Mexican if you havent noticed and yes sometimes we come to th US illegally but not to just have tons of babies and take advantage of this system that I love but to work hard and be somebody..You get brainwash like everyone else that thinks that immigrats are the problem...
and by the way Rich if you reading this nonsense can you close this thread already.....

WOAH!!! Not one single time in ANY of my insinuations did I say "ALL MEXICANS ARE BAD". Not one single time. I said that there are a good number that come here illegally and leech off the system. Granted, I may have used a few more words than that. But I in no way, shape, or form said all. You can't deny that ILLEGAL immigrants are a big part of the problem here. Just look at the figures for one COUNTY in California that I posted. I'm sure I could go find the national annual average cost for caring for the illegals. But I'm sure it would be well over $1 billion. Immigration is one of the things America was founded upon. If you want to come here, it's easy enough to do it legally. Just ask my Grandma. All she had to do was learn English and take a little test. I do take extreme offense to your reply, and your accusations that I'm a brainwashed fool.

Crazy Unmarried Bisexual Adopted White Woman with Kids. Take me as you will.

I wish I knew my background. I don't. Oh well. Enjoy it, those who do. I just get to guess at what yellow-tinted skin means for the rest of my life. :)

Oooh! I think I have one of those somewhere around here! LOL.
(The yellow skin means jaundice, darling. You might wanna get that checked out. :laugh: )
FWIW, I thought the rest of that post was very well written, and had some very valid points. I didn't have anything to add or debate, so I just cut the rest of it as a space saver.
 
LOL it's not jaundice, I promise. :)

It's ... gah.... it's just my skin tone :)

It's just a lot more yellow-y then most people in my family... since I'm not related to a one of them, it's hard to tell if it's greek/asian/something else dark lol.

Come on, I've had kids. Had more bloodtests/urine tests/people manhandling my organs then makes any sense... methinks i'm not sick :)
 
LOL it's not jaundice, I promise. :)

It's ... gah.... it's just my skin tone :)

It's just a lot more yellow-y then most people in my family... since I'm not related to a one of them, it's hard to tell if it's greek/asian/something else dark lol.

Come on, I've had kids. Had more bloodtests/urine tests/people manhandling my organs then makes any sense... methinks i'm not sick :)

If you're Asian, that automatically makes you cool. And good at math. Greek would be okay. But you'd have to have a big extended family for that. :laugh: :roflmao: (Just in case anyone couldn't tell, that was meant as a JOKE)
 
Ricky- maybe you missed the sarcasm in my post I do not want ANY sicilian-american rights becaue like I said several times in my post when we allow a society to separate out a class of people and treat them different that right there is the definition of racism and dicrimination even if it is to help them out. Every race and sex has been at one time mistreated not just blacks and no not every race and gender that has been mitreated deserves a pat on the back because it fuels the continuation of racism because that people is constantly reinforced with the idea they were treated wrong and deserve something. We need to treat everyone the same! Do you think when Martin Luther King said he wanted to see a day when blacks where treated by the content of their character and not the color of their skin he meant he wanted blacks to be treated different because they were black? I have dated outside of my race on SEVERAL occasions have you SEEN the color of my daughters skin? I am against anyone being treated different ALL THE WAY AROUND. I am also a minority woman and do not believe women should receive different rights because at one time we didn't have them IT PROPAGATES RACISM!
 
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