David is it look bud all I did was come here and ask people I have read alot of posts that they all seem smart and have their heads on straight. I know this is a touchy subject And I knew I would get some bad reactions from the younger people. But that reaction I was willing to take to hear the opinions of the older more exp people! So as for your (censored) comment that just shows me your not one I should ever take advice from!
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Very political!! Don't read if easially offended. (please)
- Thread starter KINGSRULE
- Start date
David is it look bud all I did was come here and ask people I have read alot of posts that they all seem smart and have their heads on straight. I know this is a touchy subject And I knew I would get some bad reactions from the younger people. But that reaction I was willing to take to hear the opinions of the older more exp people! So as for your (censored) comment that just shows me your not one I should ever take advice from!
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
All seem like very well reasoned replies!
I hope that the misguided "friend" is very young, and just looking for his place in the world. In that case, he may be guided into something more productive than his current association. Hopefully, it is just a temporary sidetrack. If it is an older person, he may have put more thought into it, and may be more difficult to persuade.
During my many years of observing people, I have noticed that MANY people tend to associate with those whom they perceive to be similar to themselves in various ways - race, gender, socio-economic group, sexual orientation, educational level - there are many ways that people find to consider others similar or different. My opinion is that this reflects the "selfish gene theory" and our inherent focus on on helping our small, family or tribal group that we may have originally evolved with. Just my opinion, based on my reading and thoughts.
But even if this tendency is somewhat genetic, I think that we can consciously rise above it, and enrich our lives by embracing those who are very different than our own upbringing and roots would normally include in our circle of friends and acquaintances. One can learn much more from somebody with a radically different background and perspective, than by associating only with those who are very similar to oneself.
However, I believe there is a great difference between those who choose comfort over personal growth by choosing to restrict the groups of people with whom they associate, compared to those who actively promote hate and persecution of one group or another. In my opinion, the former are just to be pitied for their lack of ability to move beyond their comfort zone for the benefits it will provide. But the latter group I have found to often encompass those who are so insecure or lacking in ability and confidence, that they need to have SOME group to blame for their lack of competence and success in life. So I may pity them as well, but would also have a complete lack of respect and interest in somebody so unwilling to accept responsibility for their own life that they have to find SOMEBODY to blame for their own inadequacies.
just my own opinions and personal analysis of the psychology of this kind of thinking.
I hope that the misguided "friend" is very young, and just looking for his place in the world. In that case, he may be guided into something more productive than his current association. Hopefully, it is just a temporary sidetrack. If it is an older person, he may have put more thought into it, and may be more difficult to persuade.
During my many years of observing people, I have noticed that MANY people tend to associate with those whom they perceive to be similar to themselves in various ways - race, gender, socio-economic group, sexual orientation, educational level - there are many ways that people find to consider others similar or different. My opinion is that this reflects the "selfish gene theory" and our inherent focus on on helping our small, family or tribal group that we may have originally evolved with. Just my opinion, based on my reading and thoughts.
But even if this tendency is somewhat genetic, I think that we can consciously rise above it, and enrich our lives by embracing those who are very different than our own upbringing and roots would normally include in our circle of friends and acquaintances. One can learn much more from somebody with a radically different background and perspective, than by associating only with those who are very similar to oneself.
However, I believe there is a great difference between those who choose comfort over personal growth by choosing to restrict the groups of people with whom they associate, compared to those who actively promote hate and persecution of one group or another. In my opinion, the former are just to be pitied for their lack of ability to move beyond their comfort zone for the benefits it will provide. But the latter group I have found to often encompass those who are so insecure or lacking in ability and confidence, that they need to have SOME group to blame for their lack of competence and success in life. So I may pity them as well, but would also have a complete lack of respect and interest in somebody so unwilling to accept responsibility for their own life that they have to find SOMEBODY to blame for their own inadequacies.
just my own opinions and personal analysis of the psychology of this kind of thinking.
First I thank everyone who has given their advice so far. And for anyone who decided to give more advice. I understand what he is doing is wrong in every fact of the word.
But after reading all of your opinions. I see what I should do!
But here is another question it brought up.
If I turn my back on him.. then am I not doing what he himself is doing? They base their beliefs on race, religion and what people believe. Does that make me as bad I am a christian and I know what the Bible states. But the clan judges on religion and to them it is a religion so does that make me as bad as them? That is one of the 3 things they judge on!
I mean I think it was Danielle and a few others that said you are judged by the company you keep. But the bible says this is not a quote but a basis if a sheep wonders off path the shepard will look for him and bring him back. I am trying to bring him back to see the light.
I know what you all have said and it helps but I can't think there is no way to help him. A few of the stories and comments I have seen on here I am going to use on him to see if they help.
All I ask if ther any true christians in here which isn't my buisness. But if you are please pray for not only him, but every man woman or child that has hate in their heart and bring them back to god!
But after reading all of your opinions. I see what I should do!
But here is another question it brought up.
If I turn my back on him.. then am I not doing what he himself is doing? They base their beliefs on race, religion and what people believe. Does that make me as bad I am a christian and I know what the Bible states. But the clan judges on religion and to them it is a religion so does that make me as bad as them? That is one of the 3 things they judge on! I mean I think it was Danielle and a few others that said you are judged by the company you keep. But the bible says this is not a quote but a basis if a sheep wonders off path the shepard will look for him and bring him back. I am trying to bring him back to see the light.
I know what you all have said and it helps but I can't think there is no way to help him. A few of the stories and comments I have seen on here I am going to use on him to see if they help.
All I ask if ther any true christians in here which isn't my buisness. But if you are please pray for not only him, but every man woman or child that has hate in their heart and bring them back to god!
Lucille
New member
That would be me.
If you were my child, I'd sit you in the kitchen and have a talk, and tell you that people join groups for many different reasons. People join gangs, political groups, churches, clubs and even sites and forums. And not always for obvious reasons. Did your friend join out of a need to be a part of something, to feel belonging? Did something happen where he was brought back into thinking about his dad and what happened?
Or does he in fact have prejudicial views?
If your friend stole something, you'd want to know why. If he stole to just get something, you might feel different than if he stole bread because he was hungry.
It might be worthwhile to talk to him and see why you think he did this. And to make clear your feelings of disapproval and dismay. And to plant the seeds of allowing your friend to stand up and walk away from this group, and to realize what an evil group it is.
If you've known your friend since he was 4 and this has not come up before, it just seems that something must have propelled him into his unfortunate choice.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
"I also believe if we or anyone forms one singular view of a person based on any of the above factors they are judgemental and no better than the person they are judging. I don't support the views of the kkk, but I can't judge that every single member has no other redeeming human qualities because of their affiliation either."
Although it is true that somebody who embraces such a terrible organization and philosophy COULD have redeeming qualities (maybe they are nice to kids and animals?), I believe that one aspect (such as hateful behavior to a target group) could be so abhorrent to me that it overrides any good that person does in other areas IN MY OPINION, and I would consider them somebody not to associate with, regardless of other good qualities.
I think this is a very personal decision and standard, to be decided by each person. For example, I could not likely respect or consider for a close friend anyone who totally embraced the radical animal rights views. I would not consider them in the same category as those who espouse the KKK views (unless they believed in violence to serve their agenda). But I would consider their ability to use logical reasoning so clouded by emotional response that it would be difficult to relate to them, probably on many different subjects. That is just my view and my standards - others would feel differently. I feel that it is best to use a "logic test" to see if your personal emotional response is likely to be positive or negative. For example, if you seek out the best (smartest, most ethical, etc) people you can find of various persecuted or minority groups, is your life likely to be enhanced or degraded? The logical answer to that question should guide your actions. If your emotions still don't allow you to follow those actions, at least you will know that you are acting emotionally and not rationally. We all do that at times - such as when we eat or drink too much even though we know it will not benefit us in the end. But at least KNOWING that we are acting irrationally may help us act more rationally - eventually.
Sorry for the rambling - it is something I feel strongly about, and feel it would benefit families and society if we could all act more logically instead of emotionally on matters of importance.
Although it is true that somebody who embraces such a terrible organization and philosophy COULD have redeeming qualities (maybe they are nice to kids and animals?), I believe that one aspect (such as hateful behavior to a target group) could be so abhorrent to me that it overrides any good that person does in other areas IN MY OPINION, and I would consider them somebody not to associate with, regardless of other good qualities.
I think this is a very personal decision and standard, to be decided by each person. For example, I could not likely respect or consider for a close friend anyone who totally embraced the radical animal rights views. I would not consider them in the same category as those who espouse the KKK views (unless they believed in violence to serve their agenda). But I would consider their ability to use logical reasoning so clouded by emotional response that it would be difficult to relate to them, probably on many different subjects. That is just my view and my standards - others would feel differently. I feel that it is best to use a "logic test" to see if your personal emotional response is likely to be positive or negative. For example, if you seek out the best (smartest, most ethical, etc) people you can find of various persecuted or minority groups, is your life likely to be enhanced or degraded? The logical answer to that question should guide your actions. If your emotions still don't allow you to follow those actions, at least you will know that you are acting emotionally and not rationally. We all do that at times - such as when we eat or drink too much even though we know it will not benefit us in the end. But at least KNOWING that we are acting irrationally may help us act more rationally - eventually.
Sorry for the rambling - it is something I feel strongly about, and feel it would benefit families and society if we could all act more logically instead of emotionally on matters of importance.
Michael823
New member
I agree to a point. That point is that I understand where you're coming from, and I agree that being equally judgmental of him will not make anyone any better off, and to attempt to help this person would be much more productive approach.
However, I think Nova summed it up for me quite well.
There can be no comparison to the judgment and hate that they have towards others, and the judgment and hate that others have towards them.
It is not only fair, but right, that they should be judged for their ideas and actions. It is, however, wrong for them, because they choose to base their judgments on factors such as race, gender, sexual preference, etc... Factors that are uncontrollable, versus factors such as beliefs and actions that one chooses.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
I just read the part about his dad being killed by a black person. I think that hate groups prey upon people who are victimized like that, encouraging them to generalize that specific incident to include all people of that particular group. Hate (like love) can give focus if life seems meaningless and has no purpose for somebody.
If he has been growing up without a father, he may be looking for a father figure to guide him, and that organization may be providing exactly what he THINKS he needs. If you can support him enough to see how little sense his choice makes, and how it can ruin his life, great. But he probably needs some adult (edit - to say "parent-like more than friend") support, preferably from a father figure, to counter this hate. If he is involved in a church, perhaps you can talk to some pastor whom he respects, and get some help. Or if there is any other father figure, such as an uncle, teacher, or ??? You might do more good by enlisting their help than by trying to intervene on your own. Whatever happens, your motives seem pure, and you can be satisfied that you did your best to help - whether it produces the results you want or not.
Good luck - I am afraid you may need it.
If he has been growing up without a father, he may be looking for a father figure to guide him, and that organization may be providing exactly what he THINKS he needs. If you can support him enough to see how little sense his choice makes, and how it can ruin his life, great. But he probably needs some adult (edit - to say "parent-like more than friend") support, preferably from a father figure, to counter this hate. If he is involved in a church, perhaps you can talk to some pastor whom he respects, and get some help. Or if there is any other father figure, such as an uncle, teacher, or ??? You might do more good by enlisting their help than by trying to intervene on your own. Whatever happens, your motives seem pure, and you can be satisfied that you did your best to help - whether it produces the results you want or not.
Good luck - I am afraid you may need it.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
I am very sorry - I did not mean to imply that you are not an adult - sorry! I meant to say that it sounds as though you are a friend figure, not a father figure, from the way you describe it. And he may need the father figure, although I really can't say from afar - just going by your description.
danielle
New member
Do we know EVERYONE in the kkk supports violence though guys? Is it possible we are overgeneralizing? Look at what people say about muslims- their not all terroists afterall nor are all of them extremists.
I never said it is right to be judged by the company we keep- we are, but it isn't always right. I said don't judge this person on the whole. Even you say you are shocked by his decision so somethings going on with him. He was a beloved friend before and walking away in whole is wrong. You can denounce your support without abandoning him or thinking he is "bad" based on his new found affiliation. The kkk generalizes people in whole based on racial and religious factors so be the better person and be honest about how you feel without turning him away like some dejected worthless person. He's obviously confused, lonely, and hurt right now
I never said it is right to be judged by the company we keep- we are, but it isn't always right. I said don't judge this person on the whole. Even you say you are shocked by his decision so somethings going on with him. He was a beloved friend before and walking away in whole is wrong. You can denounce your support without abandoning him or thinking he is "bad" based on his new found affiliation. The kkk generalizes people in whole based on racial and religious factors so be the better person and be honest about how you feel without turning him away like some dejected worthless person. He's obviously confused, lonely, and hurt right now
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
I understand what you're saying, Danielle, but for me personally I don't see how a klan member can have redeeming features. Any more than I could stay friends with anyone with a collection of paedophile porn, or who abused animals. I do have friends who are muslims, but not with extreme anti-west views. Are you saying there are klan members who don't subscribe to racial bigotry and hate?Do we know EVERYONE in the kkk supports violence though guys? Is it possible we are overgeneralizing? Look at what people say about muslims- their not all terroists afterall nor are all of them extremists.
I never said it is right to be judged by the company we keep- we are, but it isn't always right. I said don't judge this person on the whole. Even you say you are shocked by his decision so somethings going on with him. He was a beloved friend before and walking away in whole is wrong. You can denounce your support without abandoning him or thinking he is "bad" based on his new found affiliation. The kkk generalizes people in whole based on racial and religious factors so be the better person and be honest about how you feel without turning him away like some dejected worthless person. He's obviously confused, lonely, and hurt right now
danielle
New member
I don't know j9 I don't personally know any clan members to be honest- just trying to be openminded really. I know when my brother came out and told his friends he was gay many of them turned on him and judged him for his beliefs. I'm not really equating sexual orientation to racism more speaking to judgement of one based on their beliefs period. I have dated black, spanish, arab, french,.... and all mixes of races and wasn't raised in a racist family, but to say this persons friend is now a bad person based on his new group may be overboard. This may be a faze and not a permanent affiliation, or a deep seeded side no one ever knew about- I don't know really.
My main point has been judging one who judges another makes you no better than the other no matter what their beliefs are. To have an opinion is one thing and mine is any racist is out of touch with humanity on the racial level, but I can't say every racist is hate filled, violent, or a person undeserving of love from their family and friends.
My main point has been judging one who judges another makes you no better than the other no matter what their beliefs are. To have an opinion is one thing and mine is any racist is out of touch with humanity on the racial level, but I can't say every racist is hate filled, violent, or a person undeserving of love from their family and friends.
Michael823
New member
YES! Should there be non-violent klan members, they would still be supporting violence and a radical way of thinking. Comparing Muslims to the klan doesn't make as much sense, as say, comparing them to Al-Qaeda, a proven terrorist organization, such is the KKK.
I believe that these people base there hate on feeling inferior, so they create reasons to feel powerful, and prey on other weak minded individuals to accomplish this. If it was my friend, I would actively be involved in rehabilitating their misguided mind, and I hope the best for your friend.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Thanks Michael. I don't know much about the Klan, except having watched a couple of documentaries, but I just couldn't equate them with non-extreme views. If the friend will listen to more reasonable views and is just being seduced into joining, then Kathy's suggestions sound reasonable. If they do persist though, I know I personally would have to shun them from my life.
desertanimal
2003 UB313
Thank you for correcting that very, very, very bad analogy. Comparing Muslims to Christians makes sense. Comparing the KKK to Al-Qaeda and other religious extremist groups who endorse killing and torturing others because they do not act according to the codes of the extremist group (or are a different skin color, etc.) makes sense. Comparing Muslims to the KKK is breathtakingly poorly thought-out.
Nova_C
New member
I thought I'd add to my previous post with:
Judging someone based on their actions (Such as joining the KKK) doesn't necessarily mean you dismiss or ignore that person. It just means that what they've done (in a case like this) has diminished that person's standing in your eyes. It's all a matter of degrees.
If one of my friends joined an organization like the KKK, you can bet that would do significant, if not irreparable damage to our relationship. But it doesn't mean that if they later rejected that group and changed that I wouldn't be willing to try to repair the friendship.
It's the same as the relationship I have with my brother. He has a son he never sees and after a particularly awful thing he did I cut off all contact and stopped admitting I had a brother. But he's working to become a better person and we've resumed contact again. There are some things I can't abide and I will do what I have to in order to maintain my own convictions, but I will never write someone off forever.
Judging someone based on their actions (Such as joining the KKK) doesn't necessarily mean you dismiss or ignore that person. It just means that what they've done (in a case like this) has diminished that person's standing in your eyes. It's all a matter of degrees.
If one of my friends joined an organization like the KKK, you can bet that would do significant, if not irreparable damage to our relationship. But it doesn't mean that if they later rejected that group and changed that I wouldn't be willing to try to repair the friendship.
It's the same as the relationship I have with my brother. He has a son he never sees and after a particularly awful thing he did I cut off all contact and stopped admitting I had a brother. But he's working to become a better person and we've resumed contact again. There are some things I can't abide and I will do what I have to in order to maintain my own convictions, but I will never write someone off forever.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
The KKK, as a group, does not have any redeeming qualities, and haven't for at least 75-100 years or more. Perhaps when they were first formed, as a social club for Christians, that may not have been the case. But the past 100 years of radical violence against individuals and groups of people based on race has destroyed any semblance of "good" that the KKK might have once stood for.
That doesn't mean that every individual Klan member is beyond repair, as it were. Some people just don't realize that their thoughts are based on ignorance. Most of them truly believe that blacks, Asians, hispanics, and other "people of color" are, in some way or another, out to get them. Many of them have ben raised to believe that people like Martin Luther King Jr, and Affirmative Action were solely intent on breaking down "the white man", and placing him beneath "minorities". The sheer lack of education is positively overwhelming. But still, there are many members that could very well change their beliefs, and lives, with just a bit of tolerance and education.
People shouldn't be thrown away like yesterday's trash because of a bad decision. But you should definitely sit down and have a talk with your friend. Find out why. Bring some resources, some reasons, some solid evidence and talk to your friend about what he feels, and where those feelings should be directed. Nothing wrong with hating the SOB that killed your father. But applying that hatred to an entire race is wrong...
I hope you can talk your friend out of associating with such a violent and hateful group. But if not, do yourself a favor, and put as much distance between yourself and the Klan as possible.
And in my opinion...there is nothing wrong with hating the KKK and it's general membership. Anyone that is a proud supporter of the KKK and it's ideals deserves to be treated like the bigoted scum that they are, and I don't believe in turning the other cheek. While I don't believe that every single member of the KKK is a murderous, worthless, P.O.S....it's really difficult to imagine ANYONE supporting an organisation like the KKK without feeling the same deep-rooted hated and aggression as the KKK promotes. I mean...if you support it's actions and ideals enough to show up and shout at a rally, or wear your "colors" for a parade, than you obviously agree with the Klan enough to make it public knowledge. That pretty much places you in the worthless category, in my book...(not "you" to anyone specific, but in general)
That doesn't mean that every individual Klan member is beyond repair, as it were. Some people just don't realize that their thoughts are based on ignorance. Most of them truly believe that blacks, Asians, hispanics, and other "people of color" are, in some way or another, out to get them. Many of them have ben raised to believe that people like Martin Luther King Jr, and Affirmative Action were solely intent on breaking down "the white man", and placing him beneath "minorities". The sheer lack of education is positively overwhelming. But still, there are many members that could very well change their beliefs, and lives, with just a bit of tolerance and education.
People shouldn't be thrown away like yesterday's trash because of a bad decision. But you should definitely sit down and have a talk with your friend. Find out why. Bring some resources, some reasons, some solid evidence and talk to your friend about what he feels, and where those feelings should be directed. Nothing wrong with hating the SOB that killed your father. But applying that hatred to an entire race is wrong...
I hope you can talk your friend out of associating with such a violent and hateful group. But if not, do yourself a favor, and put as much distance between yourself and the Klan as possible.
And in my opinion...there is nothing wrong with hating the KKK and it's general membership. Anyone that is a proud supporter of the KKK and it's ideals deserves to be treated like the bigoted scum that they are, and I don't believe in turning the other cheek. While I don't believe that every single member of the KKK is a murderous, worthless, P.O.S....it's really difficult to imagine ANYONE supporting an organisation like the KKK without feeling the same deep-rooted hated and aggression as the KKK promotes. I mean...if you support it's actions and ideals enough to show up and shout at a rally, or wear your "colors" for a parade, than you obviously agree with the Klan enough to make it public knowledge. That pretty much places you in the worthless category, in my book...(not "you" to anyone specific, but in general)
Lucille
New member
I want to add, that I think a lot of the people who have posted here. We have diverse and differing views, but given what a sensitive topic this is, there's been a lot of thoughtful discussion and it has not at all deteriorated into a pissing match between those who may not agree with one another. In many ways, this is a remarkable community.
Lucille
New member
Kathy, there is no doubt that you help make it remarkable.