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What to pair with....Female Creamsicle?

Z

zm378205

New member
Hi,

I am new to the forum and I just got my first snake... a female creamsicle. My question is in the future, I would like to think about breeding her, and I was wondering what type of male would give me the best morphs... This might be a dumb question because "best morphs" is kind of vague, but just throw out some opinions on what you think would be cool and it would be greatly appreciated!!!!

Thanks
 
Male creamsicle. Creamsicles are a hybrid, so no matter what you breed her with, all of the offspring will have to be sold as a hybrid, too. Unless you know if she has any hets (aka hidden genetics), your best bet will be a male creamsicle to make more pretty creamsicles.

Welcome to the forum!
 
As long as the subject has come up, can I ask what the issue with hybrids is? Do they need different care or reach different sizes? Do they have different temperaments?
 
Pepper said:
As long as the subject has come up, can I ask what the issue with hybrids is? Do they need different care or reach different sizes? Do they have different temperaments?
Click to expand...

That all depends on what % corn and what % other species they are. Care is generally the same between most colubrids anyway, but size and temperament may vary. ;)

I too say another pretty creamsicle, or an ultra corn, because ultramel creamsicles are gorgeous! Just be sure to sell the resulting offspring as clearly marked hybrids. :)
 
No not really its more of a mixing of species issue. When you breed a corn to a rat snake their offspring are neither corn nor rat anymore- however many look more corn or more rat and are sold into the market as such. People then buy these animals thinking their pure, breed them, and sell their offspring as pure again polluting the gene pool.

At this point who knows how many hybrids are floating around since this scenario happens often but each time it is done it compromises the species integrity. Not that corns are an endangered species or anything and hybrids are a personal opinion thing anyway, but for the people who want pure lines in their collection hybrid breeders make it that much harder to know what you are getting is 100% corn or rat.
 
Oooohhh, she was asking what the issue is, not just what care they need...

Ok, then, what Danielle said, lol.
 
zm378205 said:
Hi,

I am new to the forum and I just got my first snake... a female creamsicle. My question is in the future, I would like to think about breeding her, and I was wondering what type of male would give me the best morphs... This might be a dumb question because "best morphs" is kind of vague, but just throw out some opinions on what you think would be cool and it would be greatly appreciated!!!!

Thanks
Click to expand...

Being one to dislike most hybrids (especially Emory x corn hybrids--creamsicle, rootbeer--since they usually look exactly like corns), I'm sorely tempted to tell you NOTHING. ;)

I'd say dub her "pet only" and, if you decide you want to try your hand at breeding someday, get "pure" corns. That's just my honest opinion, though. If you still want to breed your Creamsicle, get another Creamsicle or a Rootbeer het for Amel and clearly label each and every baby as a hybrid.
 
danielle said:
No not really its more of a mixing of species issue. When you breed a corn to a rat snake their offspring are neither corn nor rat anymore- however many look more corn or more rat and are sold into the market as such. People then buy these animals thinking their pure, breed them, and sell their offspring as pure again polluting the gene pool.

At this point who knows how many hybrids are floating around since this scenario happens often but each time it is done it compromises the species integrity. Not that corns are an endangered species or anything and hybrids are a personal opinion thing anyway, but for the people who want pure lines in their collection hybrid breeders make it that much harder to know what you are getting is 100% corn or rat.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I understand, if they breed ok and produce a new color variant, wouldn't you be excited to mate them with so-called "pure" corns to get new morphs? What is the real AVERSION to hybrids and why are "pure" corns good?
 
Pepper said:
I'm not sure I understand, if they breed ok and produce a new color variant, wouldn't you be excited to mate them with so-called "pure" corns to get new morphs? What is the real AVERSION to hybrids and why are "pure" corns good?
Click to expand...

There are existing hybrids that do nothing to improve what is already "available". The Emoryi x Corn hybrid (Rootbeers, Creamsicles...) is one of those (as far as I've seen, at least). As well as that, you can't breed the hybrid "out" of a line... Once you breed a Corn snake to an Emory's rat (or any other rat, king, or milk snake, or whatever catches one's fancy that is compatible), that line will forever be one of hybrids. It doesn't matter how many times you breed them back to known 100% "pure" corns, they will never be "pure" again. You loose that line because someone thought it would be a good idea to make a hybrid. To top it off, the entire genepool has more than enough chance to become tainted because the people who bred said hybrids didn't label them properly upon sale. (Not saying all hybrid-breeders do this, but it happens and that's the point.)

I'm sure others have plenty more to add to this, but to hold you over until someone else posts... ;) (lol)
 
Floof said:
There are existing hybrids that do nothing to improve what is already "available". The Emoryi x Corn hybrid (Rootbeers, Creamsicles...) is one of those (as far as I've seen, at least). As well as that, you can't breed the hybrid "out" of a line... Once you breed a Corn snake to an Emory's rat (or any other rat, king, or milk snake, or whatever catches one's fancy that is compatible), that line will forever be one of hybrids. It doesn't matter how many times you breed them back to known 100% "pure" corns, they will never be "pure" again. You loose that line because someone thought it would be a good idea to make a hybrid. To top it off, the entire genepool has more than enough chance to become tainted because the people who bred said hybrids didn't label them properly upon sale. (Not saying all hybrid-breeders do this, but it happens and that's the point.)

I'm sure others have plenty more to add to this, but to hold you over until someone else posts... ;) (lol)
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Ok, but supposing you did accidentally pick up an nth generation hybrid and didn't know it. How would that taint your line? Would it cut breeding ability or egg health? Would it mess up the phenotypes and genotypes to a noticable degree?
 
Pepper said:
Ok, but supposing you did accidentally pick up an nth generation hybrid and didn't know it. How would that taint your line? Would it cut breeding ability or egg health? Would it mess up the phenotypes and genotypes to a noticable degree?
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Basically as far as most 'hybrids' go...care and everything is the same or similar.

The point is, many people who keep corns want pure corns, and not a mix.

It's somewhat like if you wanted a purebred german shepherd dog...you wouldn't want a german shepherd x rottweiler. (ignorning the fact that they're the same species...but it's all I could think of at the moment). Or how about....if you want a donkey (or a horse), but someone sells you a mule.

Because of people not properly selling hybrids as hybrids, much of the gene pool is probably already affected anyway...but people still want to keep the line as pure as humanly possible. Personally, I rarely consider buying from anyone who produces creamsicles just because I don't trust that they know they are dealing with hybrids (unless, that is, they seem to be experienced breeders and are selling them as such). Call me neurotic, because I am, but how do I know the "amel's" they are selling aren't from their creamsicle's, or rootbeers, or whatever, etc..

Now, a lot of people like hybrids, they like the look of them, like to play with their genetics, etc... But that's not for everyone.
 
Pepper said:
Ok, but supposing you did accidentally pick up an nth generation hybrid and didn't know it. How would that taint your line? Would it cut breeding ability or egg health? Would it mess up the phenotypes and genotypes to a noticable degree?
Click to expand...

Nope. It's all about genetics and the "purity" of the bloodline. Are you into any show animals? Dogs, Horses, etc? We could try to put it in those terms if it would help. No sarcasm there...I'm honestly trying to help you see our side of the argument.
 
I completely understand the point of people wanting pure bred corns. Makes perfect sense, but what I am confused about is why you would hade to label a creamsicle corn snake a hybrid. Isn't it redundant?? I am new to all this but knowing what a creamsicle corn snake is, then it being a creamsicle means that it is a hybrid and therefore the offspring will be as well. Correct????
 
Many people don't realize that creamsicles are hybrids, as they are generally not represented as such at the time of purchase. My second corn is a creamsicle, and I was not aware that she was a hybrid when I bought her (I wasn't informed and I was new to the hobby and didn't know any better). I probably wouldn't have purchased her had I known that she wasn't pure corn. So yes, it is a little redundant, but it saves any confusion down the road. I do breed creamsicles (turns out I sort of like them, and I do just one clutch per year, and there is no crossing the creams into any of my pure corn lines), but they are always sold with the understanding that they are hybrids.
 
Pepper said:
I'm not sure I understand, if they breed ok and produce a new color variant, wouldn't you be excited to mate them with so-called "pure" corns to get new morphs? What is the real AVERSION to hybrids and why are "pure" corns good?
Click to expand...

If you bred a golden retriever to a border collie, the result is a mutt. A 'hybrid' between the two breeds and isn't one or the other. If you want to breed Golden Retrievers, those mutt offspring are useless. If you want to breed Border Collies, the same applies. Sure, you could eventually over time and by breeding back to one particular breed get something that looks just like a BC or Golden, but it's not pure and will still crop up with throwback traits... such as a golden that wants to herd instead of retrieve, or a mellow, drive-less bc.

Ever seen the merle 'chihuahuas'? Chis have never carried merle genetics... they were actually bred with doxies to bring over the dapple pattern, and then bred repeatedly to chihuahuas to fix the chihuahua look. But they aren't chihuahuas. They're mutts.
 
zm378205 said:
Isn't it redundant?? I am new to all this but knowing what a creamsicle corn snake is, then it being a creamsicle means that it is a hybrid and therefore the offspring will be as well. Correct????
Click to expand...

That is correct. The problem is that many people (especially those new to the hobby) don't know that they are hybrids. To them, a "creamsicle" isn't anything different than "amel", or "anery", or "caramel" etc. Just another name for a color or pattern.
 
.....and it doesn't help at all that they are called creamsicle CORNS and not creamsicle rats or creamsicle hybrids......
 
Sorry if I came off acting like I knew something... again I am new to this whole thing and didn't realize that people felt this way about "hybrids" I probably won't be breeding her anyway, right now she is just making a great pet.... Thanks for everyone who has responded it has opened my eyes to a lot of different opinions out there
 
Just wanted to clarify, I wasn't trying to argue. I was sincerely asking because to me, I don't really see a real issue other than just personal taste. I guess if I think of it in terms of a show animal it makes more sense.
 
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