Would you keep it alive??

[Iguanagirl8662]

So for the majority of post up to this point, most everyone has said they would "rehome" it. As the breeder, is there really any difference between this and humanely euthanizing it? Seriously, my reason for the thread was to find out who was willing to take the responsibility of keeping this animal from birth to death. Jeff Mohr it seems is the only person who is willing to do this, most everyone else would "rehome" the animal, "passing the buck," so to say. Agreed?

I currently have a kinked corn snake, I did not hatch him, but I saw an add for him and I loved his color and look and did not care that he was kinked even if he may have problems eating and shed. Thankfully he had no problems if he did I would have euthanized him, but he didn't and is a great snake and I love him.

I understand both sides here and personally I would not euthanize it unless it did not eat and was suffering, but I'm not a breeder. I may breed in the future but I won't have many clutches unlike most breeders who have many clutches. I do understand breeders who would euthanize a deformed hatchling right away because they want to breed only the healthiest animals possible and not being able to spend the time or money dealing with a deformed snake, then having to find a home for it, which some one may end up breeding it.

This thread is very interesting to read and see what other breeders think about this.

 

[bitsy]

Originally Posted by bitsy
No. I don't have room for another snake, so if kept alive, I'd have to rehome it.

If I rehomed it, I could never be sure that:
a) it wouldn't be used to breed in future, even if the new owner gave me a guarantee,
b) the owner would always have the financial ability to get vet help with any associated health problems that might develop as it grows.

.....So for the majority of post up to this point, most everyone has said they would "rehome" it.

For the record Michael, those were the reasons that I would euthanase the snake myself, rather than rehome. I would NOT rehome it.

 

[mike17l]

For the record Michael, those were the reasons that I would euthanase the snake myself, rather than rehome. I would NOT rehome it.

Oh yeah, Im with ya.

 

[michael couture]

Please let me know what the visible signs of suffering are so I can add that to my knowledge base. :shrugs: You're telling me it's my responsibility to care for something that I can't (and I don't honestly believe you can either) identify. Our definitions of suffering just may be different. While I sympathize, empathize and care about your personal health and well being, I take offense to you comparing those human conditions to animals. Regardless of what PETA would like you to believe, WE as humans have very little idea of what animals are actually (not) feeling or (not) thinking.

D80

My view has nothing to do with peta, I'm not sure why you would say that as to say that my caring for animals is some fluffy pipe dream to make myself feel better. And how could you possibly take offense to my comparison, I was simply giving a testament to all life to be able to survive even through human destruction, and natures deformities, and yes I do think, better yet I know that reptiles think and feel, I have spent my entire life with them, and as an example I have a snake that is only attached to me, he is so calm with me and he even squirms with my twin brother who knows very much the same teqniques to handling him, so that is just one proof of rational thinking, and no offense but it seems like alot of people treat captive bred animals as life they created so they can take it away like it's more just fashionable jewelry that moves without feeling or thinking.
To anybody in here that may feel similair to me, I would reccomend looking at www.carrollstudiogallery.com, it's not a plug but the site is my very intelligent grandfather's site, it's new so info may be brief but his books represent decades upon decades of field studies, the type of work that no scientist in the world can gain knowledge from in a lab, and he is a very smart and normal rational person, don't make assumptions because he spends alot of his time in wetlands, he is also an incredible artist but people all over the world follow his work, and one of time's people of the year who has also dedicated his time to help save the earths reptiles due to the impact most of us have on the environment, I'm not trying to sound preachy but I think people need to look back at the history of reptiles and view them as amazing wonders, and not just some new found "mink coat" trade.

 

[Drizzt80]

I'm glad you feel so strongly about the personification of animals. I'm not going to debate the issue with you. Good luck. Next time, please don't impose an arbitrary set of responsibilities on me based on your set of opinions. Your beliefs about animal feelings and thoughts are just that, opinion.

D80

 

[Em Wright]

I've been giving this some thought after reading some more opinions and whatnot. I believe that we are responsible for the animals in our care, we need to make sure they have everything they need. Food, water, appropriate bedding, etc. I also believe we have a responsibility to end their lives if they are in pain or have no quality of life.

If an animal is deformed and has no quality of life it is more humane to euthanize it than to allow it to live, even as a pet.

As for feeling... I know my dog has instinctual feelings. That doesn't put her on the level of being a human, but that doesn't mean I'm going to set her tail on fire because she can't feel the pain. Reptiles on the other hand I'm not so sure. Just a few weeks ago my dog went missing while we were out of town and thankfully she returned, but during the time she was gone my snake wasn't there to comfort me, not in the way a dog comes and licks your face or a cat sits on your lap purring. :shrugs:

On the other hand, there's something about a three-legged dog that most people can't resist. But if a dog with three legs can still run and play, eat, sleep, etc without difficulties and has a loving home where it is expected to do nothing more than live a happy, comfortable life, why end its existance? A deformed snake capable of feeding, shedding, etc shouldn't be any different providing he/she also has a home where they can be cared for properly.

But really I think this is one of those issues that each person has to weigh themselves and decide for themselves what is right and wrong. I also believe it is a case by case decision (at least for me) and not something to be blanketed over every deformed reptile. It really just depends on the circumstances.

 

[michael couture]

I'm glad you feel so strongly about the personification of animals. I'm not going to debate the issue with you. Good luck. Next time, please don't impose an arbitrary set of responsibilities on me based on your set of opinions. Your beliefs about animal feelings and thoughts are just that, opinion.

D80

Yes responsibilities are arbitrary, animals don't feel pain or deserve life only humans do, so tell me why then do you own pets? And how am I imposing my beliefs, I'm sharing them hence the thread was asking our different opinions and I gave mine, though you seem like a charming middle aged person too, I mean you are so open minded and clearly you are quite an intellectual.
I think it's good to assume animals are just mindless organisms that were put here for our self gain, because at the end of the day all that matters is how much money we can get off of these otherwise useless creatures, and we need people like you to educate us PETA having hippies about what animals are really here for, food, and monitary gain.
Thank you I have become enlightened and I appreciate you stopping me from a lifetime of caring about animals, that would have sucked, I mean now I can just listen to heavy metal and get drunk, forget responsibilities to our environment and society, I am now liberated from the burden of trying to grow as a person and educate myself, I'm comfortable right here in this chair dictating other people to be like me, now I can really do something with my life.

 

[Drizzt80]

And how am I imposing my beliefs,

The capitalized stressing of the word responsibility in this quote is you imposing your beliefs on me and every other breeder that read your post.

I would keep it, because again it's the breeders RESPONSIBILITY to take the best care of any reptile that is'nt suffering.

As for the rest of your blather, you obviously didn't read, or understand, my posts. Did you know that according to some, tomatoes scream when you cut them. No BLT's for you then huh?!

D80

 

[tricksterpup]

The capitalized stressing of the word responsibility in this quote is you imposing your beliefs on me and every other breeder that read your post.

I have imposed my beliefs on you and you loved it.

As for the rest of your blather, you obviously didn't read, or understand, my posts. Did you know that according to some, tomatoes scream when you cut them. No BLT's for you then huh?!

D80

Actually that is the sole reason why i eat tomatoes. Nothing better than fresh screaming tomatoes for lunch.


But seriously, I am not a huge breeder but I would keep something like this around and then maybe hand it to a friend as a pet who would have no intentions of breeding it.
Cause you know some kid would love it. I am sure Jeff probably uses this snake for his hands on shows. I think it would be an interesting show to kids and to compare a healthy one.
The reason I say this, it may help kids to understand deformities in animals and in humans. If a child was born with one eye we would not kill it. So in a way an educational animal like this may help children to under stand and accept deformities a lot better.

 

[michael couture]

totally agreed trickster, I was simply saying the snake deserves a chance and would also make a great educational tool about how creatures have been able to survive in the worst of conditions.
And I'm completely done with posting in this thread, I'm not trying to get any converts and the idea of polling this just seems like people needing justification through other people agreeing. Whoever is just constantly commenting to my posts, you seriously have alot of insecurities because I never directed anything at anyone until you got your pants in a bunch.
But this makes me think no less of this forum or you, some people are on here to learn and to teach, and others are on here to have a dictatorship and criticize, but I have met so many wonderful helpful people from this site already and I will keep valuing the information.
And your constant assossiation of people who value the lives of animals to being soft or out of touch PETA loving hippies just shows your ignorance and most of your judgements probably do come from stereotypes, and I love how compared living creatures to tomatoes, brilliant, what I want to know is WHY DO YOU OWN PETS? if you think they have no purpose of their own other than what they can do for you, even science will prove you wrong one day and I hope you don't abuse your animals based on the fact that they "feel no pain".

 

[Drizzt80]

You still . . .

obviously didn't read, or understand, my posts.

D80

. . . and are making more ASSumptions than I ever did. Which is why I chose not to debate this issue with you.

A. You never described/defined/proved suffering for me.
B. You're putting a ton of words in my mouth.
C. You have no clue the point I was making as evidenced by your responses.

Again, good luck, and have a nice day.
D80

 

[michael couture]

there's no debate to be had, I have no hard feelings for your opinions so if I misunderstood your opinion I apologize, but it seems to me that you keep replying to my post with sarcastic comments insulting my opinions, I'm over it and I hope you are, honestly it is what it is, I never called anyone out look at my posts then look at your replies, I was sharing my beliefs and this thread was probably just asking for some form of argument, you live your life the way you want and I'll live mine, I really have no hard feelings and I hope the best for you, I just did'nt appreciate such rude replies.

 

[diamondlil]

Yes responsibilities are arbitrary, animals don't feel pain or deserve life only humans do, so tell me why then do you own pets? And how am I imposing my beliefs, I'm sharing them hence the thread was asking our different opinions and I gave mine, though you seem like a charming middle aged person too, I mean you are so open minded and clearly you are quite an intellectual.
I think it's good to assume animals are just mindless organisms that were put here for our self gain, because at the end of the day all that matters is how much money we can get off of these otherwise useless creatures, and we need people like you to educate us PETA having hippies about what animals are really here for, food, and monitary gain.
Thank you I have become enlightened and I appreciate you stopping me from a lifetime of caring about animals, that would have sucked, I mean now I can just listen to heavy metal and get drunk, forget responsibilities to our environment and society, I am now liberated from the burden of trying to grow as a person and educate myself, I'm comfortable right here in this chair dictating other people to be like me, now I can really do something with my life.

I'm sure there are heavy metal fans who love their pets!
Also, you may want to consider that on this forum, as could be expected, there will be a range of opinion and debate about any subject. And debating in a mature manner may be more productive than ranting. IMO (In other words, that's just my opinion, which I'm expressing on an open forum)

 

[Em Wright]

and I love how compared living creatures to tomatoes, brilliant, what I want to know is WHY DO YOU OWN PETS? if you think they have no purpose of their own other than what they can do for you, even science will prove you wrong one day and I hope you don't abuse your animals based on the fact that they "feel no pain".

I feel very strongly that Drizzt takes very good care of his animals. I purchased one of his hatchlings a couple months ago who is in excellent health and has a great temperment.

It's silly to think animals have the same level of thought and EMOTIONS as humans do. They don't think or debate things, they simply react according to their natural instinct. Does your snake love you and only you? No I don't percieve it as 'love' so much as familiarity. He is most comfortable with you than others, but that does not mean he FEELS love towards you. At least that is my opinion.

Animals are NOT humans. Animals are animals and have their own place in the scheme of things. To personificate a dog is wrong, because it is not a person. It can be your companion and share your life with you, but at the end of the day it is still a dog. It's the same with any pet. You may love it, but that doesn't make it the same as a human. Would you place your pet above your children? Of course not.

This doesn't mean I'm saying people can do whatever they want to their pets, because I really do not agree with animal abuse. Nor do I agree with the insanity that is PETA, for the record. I believe we should care for our pets, give them the things they need to live a healthy life, etc, but that doesn't mean my dog has her own place at the dinner table.





Okay, maybe she does...

 

[Drizzt80]

Here's a little light reading for you mr couture.

D80

 

[mike17l]

Here's a little light reading for you mr couture.

D80

Light? ~400 posts aint light. I hadnt seen that thread before, but I think Ill have to do some light reading someday as it looks good. Thanks.

 

[michael couture]

I'm totally done with you guys trying to box me into a steryotype, and it's clear your misconstuing my words into saying that my snake loves me and he thinks like a human, my point was that my snake can associate the difference between me and others and acts consistently calmer in my grasp than other peoples just as one example of somewhat rationalizing.
You see PETA on TV and I agree that it's a money hungry organization that collects money for abused and neglected animals but never redistributes it to the animals in need, and it's to my point that you keep trying to make me seem as though I'm some airy non rational "tree hugging hippie" as you would probably label them.
I simply said It's our responsibility to care for all of the creatures we decide to have as pets or breeding stock, and in return Drizzt took offense so if he's a responsible breeder what made him so insecure.
Diamond you are right that it was wrong of me to say that heavy metal should be associated with careless people I was ignorantly assuming by Drizzt's picture that that was his type of music and that I should think just like him that's all, honestly no disrespect to anyone who listens to any type of music that helps them get through their day and I really mean that.
But I felt like I got the stamp of being some clueless free spirit who thinks animals are people in a different form, but ignorance never wins over ignorance because only ignorance can be the victor, but I just game my opinion and got basically harassed for it, that's why we just should'nt have opinion polls because debates are inevitable.
I also posted that if I was assuming things incorrectly I was apologetic, but I still got more replies that were accusatory, this debate is over and people can go on with their lives.
My first post was all that I had to say and sometimes people in forums are like little communist dictators that always tell you why you can't think that way, I'm an opened minded person but I get carried away when simple point of views become critiques of opinion, Drizzt you said I did'nt understand your point so please explain it, and I'm not trying to be sarcastic either but your first reply to me was how you took offense to me comparing human conditions with that of animals, and all I said was I can relate to having a disability that might be seen as life threatening but with time and care creatures with deformities live just as happy and healthy.
So please explain how I misunderstood you and we can go from there, I admit that when I feel under critical judgement I can be overcritcal myself but I felt I wasn't given a fair chance to explain myself either, so please no more critical assumptions, I apologize for my part so let's just move on.

 

[Nanci]

Michael, it's ok to have a debate. It happens from time to time here. Be glad this is a forum where threads don't get locked or vanish. As in real life, we don't all get along all of the time. If you have a commitment to this community, though, people recognize that, and everything blows over in a short time.

 

[Em Wright]

Unfortunately misinterpreting what someone is typing is highly possible. :shrugs: I don't know as anyone was trying to attack you, I know that wasn't my intent. If I offended you I apologize. *hugs*

 

[Drizzt80]

Drizzt . . . but your first reply to me was how you took offense to me comparing human conditions with that of animals,

Further proof that you're not reading what I have typed . . .

My first response to you was this:

Please let me know what the visible signs of suffering are so I can add that to my knowledge base. :shrugs: You're telling me it's my responsibility to care for something that I can't (and I don't honestly believe you can either) identify. Our definitions of suffering just may be different. While I sympathize, empathize and care about your personal health and well being, I take offense to you comparing those human conditions to animals. Regardless of what PETA would like you to believe, WE as humans have very little idea of what animals are actually (not) feeling or (not) thinking.

D80

The bolded part was the important part. Something of which you haven't responded to other than putting words in my mouth.

Add to that this post which, if you had read it, you should have gotten the picture.

Enjoy.
D80