Would you keep it alive??

[TripleMoonsExotic]

It's our responsibility to care for all of the creatures we decide to have as pets or breeding stock

No, that's not what you said...

I would keep it, because again it's the breeders RESPONSIBILITY to take the best care of any reptile that is'nt suffering.

I 100% understand why Brent called you on it. When I read it, I thought immediately you were delusional and obviously had no experience of your own when it came to breeding (among other choice words that I won't post on a "family" forum).

While it is an owners responsibility to take care of their pets...It is a breeders responsibility to produce the highest quality, healthiest pets for those owners. I do not find a deformed snake to be high quality or healthy, do you?

Bitsy posted two of my top reasons for euthanasia over rehoming. Does it bother some people? Sure...But it's my choice and what I've found best that works for me so I don't have to worry about bad stock getting into uncaring/inexperienced hands.

 

[mike17l]

I euthanized a nonfeeding ultramel charcoal, how many of those are out there? And all because it refused to eat live or FT. I didn't want to keep and eventually breed snakes that don't eat.

 

[michael couture]

alright Drizzt now you are just acting way too immature, I still believe what I said was right but out of trying to be mature I apologized for any misunderstandings on my part and I hoped you might do the same, I swallowed my pride to try to let this just blow over but you keep trying to debate me, I can't tell you what suffering is nor did I try to, I just said that the snake in question was clearly not suffering and that to put him to sleep because paying to feed and house a snake that is too unnatractive to make a dime from was wrong, and that we should value the life of this snake and learn as well as educate others of how giving a chance to all creatures to thrive, especially ones in captivity that rely on us, can pay dividends that money can't buy.
And it was your PETA comment "regardless of what peta would like you to believe", that really bothered me, it seemed like a sorry attempt to discredit my opinion by linking it to a group of people that are blind to the ways of the world, and are publicly viewed as ignorant over the top and overprivelaged people that push their views for self gain.
Also that it takes away my personal feelings like I have no individuality other than to take an opinion from somebody else or another group to try to preach as my own, I try to educate myself and grow as a person daily and I hate to be forced into a box like somehow I don't try to look at every side before I give my opinion.
I tried to see your opinion and had you been easier going I may have understood it, but I really don't like leaving people with a bad impression of my character, even online, so I apologize again for my part in assuming things and sounding like a dictator, and I hope you can see where maybe you did the same, we're all people that share this country and play different roles in society and as long as you do what you think is right and don't act out in prejudice or ignorance then I will give you your respect.
Why just cast away people for having different view points, I respect that you feel so strongly but I don't respect your strong feelings trying to dismiss mine, I hope this can be the end of this PLEASE, and maybe in a different place, different time we can agree on something and help eachother to bring a better understanding, lesson learned so let's for now agree to disagree and move on.

 

[michael couture]

No, that's not what you said...



I 100% understand why Brent called you on it. When I read it, I thought immediately you were delusional and obviously had no experience of your own when it came to breeding (among other choice words that I won't post on a "family" forum).

While it is an owners responsibility to take care of their pets...It is a breeders responsibility to produce the highest quality, healthiest pets for those owners. I do not find a deformed snake to be high quality or healthy, do you?

Bitsy posted two of my top reasons for euthanasia over rehoming. Does it bother some people? Sure...But it's my choice and what I've found best that works for me so I don't have to worry about bad stock getting into uncaring/inexperienced hands.

Honestly enough is enough, I really am trying to just be done with this I don't need to hear your "choice words" for simply sharing my opinion, does anyone agree that I'm being a little unfairly attacked here or do all of you have close personal ties, I tried to apologize for maybe assuming things but I still believe what I believe, and I really hate to be called delusional because trust me I've seen alot of what this world has to offer and I try my hardest to not be overcritical, but I apologize when I am, I think my two posts you quoted are one in the same, and I'm really not intimidated by having everyone calling me out like somehow I was way out of line, I think this thread was unfortunately desingned for this type of harassment and I like cheese so "SNAP" you got me, just keep trying to break my will because freedom of speech isn't meant for online forums.
I apologize up and down if someone felt I directly disrespected them, but I do not apologize if my opinion ruins your day, life is too short and I really wish every body on here peace and good health.

 

[Em Wright]

I euthanized a nonfeeding ultramel charcoal, how many of those are out there? And all because it refused to eat live or FT. I didn't want to keep and eventually breed snakes that don't eat.

If it's not eating wouldn't it eventually die from starvation anyway? :shrugs: I don't see anything wrong with this, at least you didn't sell it to someone under the pretenses that it would feed. That's just a sad fact of life.

Another good point that just occured to me is the natural way of the 'wild'. Survival of the fittest. If a snake in the wild is sick, deformed, etc I don't think the other snakes would stop and offer it a chance based on its problems. That sounds harsh to me, but that's just the way it is.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Honestly enough is enough, I really am trying to just be done with this I don't need to hear your "choice words" for simply sharing my opinion

Tough. This is an open discussion forum and I have every right to respond to your posts as long as I do not violate the sites TOS.

I think this thread was unfortunately desingned for this type of harassment

It's hardly harassment. You're exaggerating.

Generally this topic has those that euthanize having to defend themselves against some extreme opposing opinions. I am actually pleasantly surprised how this topic is developing.

 

[michael couture]

it's harassment because I'm trying to relate to you and I keep being boxed in, I can see why you breeders have tough decisions to make and unfortunately that includes euthinasia, I don't think I was being extreme, but if I was my sincere apologies.
The topic of discussion was a snake with one eye, and whether he was worth time, money and resources to keep alive, even though he was a great eater and otherwise healthy so I said absolutely.
I'm starting to see your points in the sense that as a breeder you are only trying to produce the healthiest animals you can, but why do you have to kill a snake because of a superficial deformity, why not just give it a tub to live out it's life like all of the other snakes.
I can see if the snake was so badly deformed that it was only right to euthinize it, but we should really try to see the symbolism in destroying something because it's not quite perfect, I think a snake with one eye is as good of a pet as any and it has so much more character.
I thought that snake lovers were a rare breed of people that could look past all of the stigmas and see beauty in them, and it seems like now we only find them beautiful if we create them or if they are worth money, and we fail to see how amazing they really are, I mean having one eye in the scheme of things is'nt as weird as having no arms, legs, ears, noses or eyelids.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I'm starting to see your points in the sense that as a breeder you are only trying to produce the healthiest animals you can, but why do you have to kill a snake because of a superficial deformity, why not just give it a tub to live out it's life like all of the other snakes.

Because large breeders can have several deformities pop out a year. It adds up quickly. I had to euthanize 3/4 a clutch of Lavender Motleys in 2007 because they were kinked. Do you really think I have room to keep 10-15 snakes (from one clutch, mind you) that are just going to just sit in a tub and eat?

Do I care that Jeff kept his one-eyed snake as a pet? Nope. That's his choice. I however will not be crucified or tried to make look bad because of my choices which have valid reasons.

 

[michael couture]

I wish people would'nt quote me in bold, because I think I had much more to say than that, most of which was not "crucifying" as you say, and I hardly think making the choice to euthanize a snake is martyrdom, and I guess by the responses even my trying to be reasonable is open for debate.
Clearly this is a lost cause and egos are running high, so I'll stop posting and hopefully someone can take something from what I've spent so much time typing, and realize that it's still worth it to give your opinion regardless of the outpouring of negative criticism.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

What I bolded is what I replied to, and instead of just clipping out that one section, I quoted the whole sentence. I answered a question...Did you not really want an answer to your question?

This statement though:

I thought that snake lovers were a rare breed of people that could look past all of the stigmas and see beauty in them, and it seems like now we only find them beautiful if we create them or if they are worth money, and we fail to see how amazing they really are, I mean having one eye in the scheme of things is'nt as weird as having no arms, legs, ears, noses or eyelids.

can be viewed as an unreasonable, uneducated response. Comments like that are why you are being questioned (not harassed) by breeders.

I also did not say you were crucifying me. so please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

 

[michael couture]

how am I wrong or uneducated in that post, I've yet to see a single post of yours thats an opinion based on knowledge, and not just a quote in which you criticize someone elses opinion.
And "Comments like that are why you are being questioned (not harassed) by breeders"
is a far too broad of a statement, seeing I think there are plenty of breeders who would agree with me, and breeders just means you own snakes and sell there babies, so I would like to see what zooligists, environmentalists, and just plain snake enthusiasts think of your "educated" opinions.
If a healthy snake with one eye is "undesirable" to you, yet it shares 99.9% of all of the same genes as ones you keep, then how are you not selectively caring about snakes based on what morph it is or what is monitary value is.
I wonder sometimes what some "breeders" are in it for, and that's not to discredit "breeders" as a whole because I have met so many wonderful genuinely caring people that love their snakes and have just as much love for wild snakes as they do their prized morph.
I think this topic is just too one sided, because I feel that there are many people who feel just like I do, but they're just smart and did'nt post because of the unfortunate reprocussions of having an opinion that is'nt the majority.
But unlike some people I don't need an army to justify my opinion, and I am perfectly secure in the fact that my opinion has reasonable aspects, but I'm not sure what classifies this as a forum, because forum usually means all opinions are well represented and open for discussion without public discourse, and so far it seems like a dictatorship that really only allows for one person to be right, and the rest are "unreasonable and uneducated responses".
But seriously this is my last post under this thread, I won't even respond if you decide to sling some more mud, so knowing that it would be only for your ego that you're responding, I thank all of you for your time, and I give my full respect to 99% of you in this forum who have been so helpful and open minded.

 

[Em Wright]

I've been trying to stay out of this, but I'm getting a little irritated with the way you keep responding. If you're done with the thread then be done with it, how many times have you come back after posting 'I'm done here' essentially instead of just letting it go? Several. If you really don't want to argue/debate anymore then step away and let the topic return to the easy discussion it was before all the rucous. If not, then stop saying you're done when you obviously aren't. :awcrap:

As for other people not speaking up, maybe it's because they just don't want to fuel the fire. That's the way I see it. I enjoy debates, even ones that get mildly heated. But when one person is just being plain antagonistic it sort of ruins things. And not to sound rude but some of your comments do come off as offensive. In one breath you'll apologize and in the next make some snide remark that can easily be taken as an insult.

I'm not even a breeder and I feel that some of what you're saying is insulting. I do see your point, I just wish you could present it in a less antagonistic manner. I think then people would not 'attack' you as you've stated so many times. unch:

A lot of times it's not your opinion that people find insulting, it's the way you present your opinion.

 

[diamondlil]

A little off-topic, Mr Couture, but what about feeder mice? What right do snake-keepers have to cause, directly or indirectly, the death of so many animals to feed their chosen pets. I keep a breeding colony, but every now and then my teenage boys will pick out an unusually coloured mouse to have as a pet, tame and care for. Pet mice (I have kept all manner of rodents well before I got my first snake) are great little characters, and have their own little personalities. I expect a lot of keepers of pet mice would think us reptile fans are totally evil for killing mice or for buying frozen mice that could have been lovely little pets.
I can appreciate that point of view without agreeing with it. How do you square your love of and respect for animals with what you feed your snake?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Michael,

You can't seem to answer direct questions presented to you...and when your questions are answered you ignore the responses because you don't like the answers. That is being egotistical, not me disagreeing with you and pointing out your comments that can be viewed as insults. Having an opinion (even a differing opinion) does not make someone egotistical...Think that your opinion is the only right opinion when it's something of personal choice is egotistical.

I think perhaps you need to go through and actually read my posts. I'm not going to repeat myself on why I choose to cull deformities. Though I will quote myself since you're whining about the topic being "one-sided":

Generally this topic has those that euthanize having to defend themselves against some extreme opposing opinions. I am actually pleasantly surprised how this topic is developing.

Janine raises a very good point on the feeder mice. Mice are smarter then snakes...So by your reasoning, how can you "ethically" feed rodents to your snakes? Do you know there are some species of snake that primarily eat other snakes? Should they be left for dead because it's not kosher in some peoples opinions to cull deformed hatchlings?

 

[Drizzt80]

alright Drizzt now you are just acting way too immature, I still believe what I said was right but out of trying to be mature I apologized for any misunderstandings on my part and I hoped you might do the same, I swallowed my pride to try to let this just blow over but you keep trying to debate me,

Immature?! Yer a funny guy. What do I have to apologize for?! I've asked for your definition of suffering so I can better understand and take care of my animals and you've responded with several long-winded posts of blather that put words in my mouth. And I'm debating you?! I just want an answer to my question . . which you still haven't given.

I can't tell you what suffering is nor did I try to, I just said that the snake in question was clearly not suffering

You can't tell me what suffering is but you can tell me the snake in question was clearly not suffering . . . seriously? That's the best you've got??!! :shrugs: Don't you even recognize the contradiction?

I hate to be forced into a box like somehow I don't try to look at every side before I give my opinion.

I forced you into a box by asking you a question . . . which you still haven't answered?

I tried to see your opinion and had you been easier going I may have understood it,

Mine isn't an opinion . . . at least until you can show me the signs of suffering in an animal. Can you actually speak/communicate with animals to know their thoughts and feelings. No, you can't, so don't try to pretend. I repeat, again, please explain to me the signs of suffering so I can be sure not to euthenize the ones that aren't suffering (by your definition of course, but mine doesn't matter).

but I don't respect your strong feelings trying to dismiss mine,

When did I dismiss your feelings?! I merely asked a question you've been unable to answer . . . which was my point, from the beginning.

I hope this can be the end of this PLEASE, and maybe in a different place, different time we can agree on something and help eachother to bring a better understanding, lesson learned so let's for now agree to disagree and move on.

Actually, you stated several posts ago that you were done with this thread . . . I guess the desire to appear to be right is stronger than the desire to let it go. I've just wanted the answer to one single question that you haven't given because you can't. You also can't admit that forcing an arbitrary responsibility on me because I'm a breeder was a blatantly ignorant comment that in fact put me in a box of your design. You followed all of that up by calling me names, saying I only own animals for their monetary value, that I shouldn't own animals, that I listen to heavy metal music which is what makes me a drunk piece of $hit so on and so forth. Of course your response will be that you apologized for all of that, but you haven't apologized for the ignorant comment that I'm an irresponsible breeder for euthenizing animals that I think are suffering because they have crooked spines (crooked spines for God's sake!!!!) and don't eat.

Have a nice day!
D80

 

[jenneses]

I believe the breeder has the responsibility to offer quality and health to their prospective customers. Since snake breeding is a relatively new hobby, it is even more imperative that they do, otherwise we are looking at a lot of the problems that have evolved in mammalian breeding for specific looks (i.e. hip dysplasia in dogs, malocclusion in rabbits, and neurological disorders of cats) for the future.

I am proud of how the breeders here on this site have stepped up to take responsibility in making sure the stock of corn snakes and other reptile species are healthy and genetically sound. In doing so, they have most likely prevented future snakes from "suffering".:cheers:

If I felt Drizzt80 was not a caring and concerned breeder of corn snakes I would not have purchased the four hatchlings from him. Having read his posts on here, and read the BOI on Faunaclassifieds.com, I felt that he was an upstanding individual who cared about the quality of his breeding stock and the resulting offspring.

 

[michael couture]

Alright I know I said that I was done posting but you guys keep posting about me, I agree that on one hand I apologized and then kept debating but after I wrote posts but more people joined in and if it comes off as egotistical to respond that just know I'm not trying to be, I just like to explain myself because I feel my point was missed.
I thought about your feeder mice comment and you are so right about it, although if my cat has a mouse that can be saved I try my best to do so.
But from my understanding the question was about a snake with only one eye, not kinks or feeding issues, and the statement was whether the snake was worth time and money to keep alive although it was otherwise healthy and a great eater, and the link Drizzt put was about culling hybrid snakes that did'nt fit the breeders standard of attractive, and I just thought that was wrong because it seems like a complete disregard for the fact that they are still living creatures.
I totally agree with your mouse comment though and it's kind of a light bulb moment for me, but I was'nt trying to be preachy like some vegetarian peta member, I just felt it got heated on both sides and I did try to apologize for my assumptions hoping that others might as well, and should have left it at that, instead of having an ego to keep responding just because they didn't apologize as well, not that they should feel sorry for their opinions but maybe for their equal judgements of my opinion.
I want to leave this on a good note, and after thoroughly reading through all of my posts and replies to them, I will say that I honestly feel bad Drizzt if you feel that I offeneded you, I just felt a little overscrutinized as I'm sure you did as well.
So just to leave my thoughts about the initial question as soley my opinion that noone else has to agree with, I think you breeders have a tough job and I'm sure that pay is hardly so lucrative that you choose to kill snakes soley by appearence, but in the circumstance of a snake that is being culled because it does'nt fit a standard that mother nature has no control over, I think that's wrong, that's just my opinion and I'm not trying to start a debate again.
I will admit that this has been surprisingly educational and although you may have thought I was too ignorant to see your opinions, I'm not.
In fact some of your points have really made me respect and understand the complicated aspects of choosing top quality breeders, although I feel health issues should be the only reason for euthaniasia, but that's just my opinion, and I should have been more respectful stressing in my opinion earlier.
You guys have made me realize I have to be more open minded about everything before I make false judgements, and after seeing quite a few of your other posts I can see that you are a helpful and knowledgable breeder Drizzt, I just took some things personal and sometimes people need to just take a step back to see the bigger picture.
I really hate leaving anybody with a negative impression of my character, so please accept my apologies, and I hope you can understand that I just felt overly criticized, and I did'nt do the best job expressing my views without casting judgement.
I've learned alot from everyone here and hopefully that goes full circle, sometimes it takes arguments that aren't always pretty to learn something, but I will admit that I have learned alot, and I'm glad to see a so many points of view because that's how we grow as a society, take care everybody.

 

[Roy Munson]

This is a post I made in the "Culling 'side product'" thread that Brent/Drizzt80 linked. It's all I have to say and all I'll ever have to say about this topic:

I don't like culling. I don't like thawing out culled hatchlings and feeding them to kingsnakes. But I cull what I want, when I want, for whatever reason I want. I've culled snakes with minor kinks that refused their first couple of meals. Sure I could have kept working with them, but I didn't feel like it. And I dispose of the culls in whatever way I see fit. I've fed them to kings, I've thrown them into the bushes, and I've thrown them into the river-- whatever I felt like doing at the time. These are all my decisions to make, and only my opinions count in the matter. I don't care what anyone else thinks about my decisions. Most people do what they want anyway, and they keep quiet about it.

Would I keep a one-eyed, kinked snake alive? Maybe. If I felt like it. And if I didn't feel like it, I'd euthanize it. I euthanized a number of kinked hatchlings this season without even attempting to feed them. I didn't feel like it, so I didn't do it. Don't like it? Too bad.

 

[Em Wright]

I said it earlier on in this thread and I stand to it. There are certain things that people may face, such as culling, that may be wrong for one person, but okay for the next. I can't tell Roy he's evil for euthanising hatchlings for whatever reason he sees fit or tell someone else they're evil for allowing a minorly kinked snake to live. It's their decision, based upon what they feel to be right.

For the record I'm not saying you're evil Roy, just using your standpoint as an example.

 

[Jevard]

yes ive produced 0 total... if its eating it has the will to survive why take that life from it because it looks different