You won Rich

[CMLReptiles]

There is one thing that could have fixed it all......


COMMUNICATION.

Normally I'd agree with that, but I think this is a situation where there's plenty of communication, the problem lies in that nobody is LISTENING...Side A is saying one thing, side B is paying attention to only a specific part and not the whole thing, and gets defensive, then in the reply half of what side B gets lost in what side A hears.

Honestly, I only know side B's part of the story, as I don't talk to Rich on a daily basis like some of the people on the other side. I do however know the complaints and problems some people are having, and reading Rich's replies to certain things, to me it feels that he is either completely missing the point or doesn't care. Was Caroline's thread here the right way to go about things? Probably not...maybe she thought this was the only way to go. But can I understand her anger? Yes...I'd be pretty upset too if I was paying for a forum and it got locked for no reason.

And Rich, honestly, if you're getting your panties up in a bunch and getting this upset over some people on the internet not wishing to display their "contributing member" icons, it seriously needs to stop. If you're gonna be so insistant, just make it automatic, and not a choice.

 

[DAND]

Chris,

I have to agree with Rich that you just don't seem to get it. If Rich seems to not care, in my opinion it's the not caring to explain himself over and over to people who just didn't get it the first few times. As an observer of this issue I would have to say that Rich isn't the one with the bunched panties. And Chris, yours seem to be riding you a little. :eek1:

 

[cka]

I'm still at a loss to why anyone's issues between themselves and/or Rich can't be handled privately. :shrugs: As far as the ego clashes, continuing pettiness, etc etc that Dean alludes to, c'mon really people, these are "cron sankes" we are talking about ;*)...

 

[Russell]

Well, I hate to say it, and it's only my personal opinion, but the main cause of the problem is that some members thought they had rights equal to that of the owner, but found out they were wrong and got pissed off about it. And as time is going by, I'm unfortunately seeing this opinion verifying itself over and over again.

Rich is absolutely correct...nothing he has asked or done could be considered worth the responses he's been getting. As the sole owner of this site, he has every right to put any ads he sees fit in any place he sees fit. He has the right to ask that the members behave in a certain fashion. He has the right to require a specific font/color/whatever be indicated for a specific function. Rules and regulations are a fact of life and we deal with them every day. I may not like having to wear a specific uniform shirt with black pants on each specific day at work, but that is the requirement specified by my employer. I don't like having to dress my children in uniforms of specific colors to send them to school, but that is the requirement specified by county law and school policy. I don't like having to drive 40mph on a 4-lane highway that could easily handle a higher rate of speed, but that is the requirement specified by law for that road. I don't like having to give a certain percentage of my salary to the federal government, but that is a requirement of living in this country. People have said "America...Love it or Leave it." Do we need to do the same here?

In total agreement here. I'll continue to post where I please, but this in no way makes me a one side or the other person. I chat in this new chat room cause the majority of my friends on this forum also chat there. Rich is doing a great job running things the way he sees fit. Being corrected is something a lot of people don't take well. And toleration for other things on this site is lower for some than others. Yes those ads are pain sometimes. But I'd rather live with them and have this forum keep running. I hate seeing the division that's going on. BUT! to those of you who don't know, it's more like, there is the other chat room. Yes there is a forum, yet myself, I'll post pics at both sites. And still maintain most of my time here. I really think it's coming down to an issue of what people are willing to put up with, and their personality differences. Some seemed so quick to try to point out other issues rather than just own up to behavior that was less than perfect. I too have done it! I've snapped in the chat room from time to time.

So yes, I can try harder, and no that doesn't mean everyone should have to act like me, or whatever. It's called dealing with it the best they know how. And that really is why the new chat room was created. We no longer deal with issues we had in the past. It just seems instead of letting it go, we've made a HUGE mountain out of what should have been just a little bump in the road...and created a mess! There is no winning about this whole situation! Caroline, would I be upset if another Russell came on here, and made another Russell's World? Nah, not when we all know who the REAL Russell is...LOL! I mean really, think about it. You wouldn't be happy, but I would be.

Why? Cause it all comes down to toleration and opinion. We keep trying to force our own toleration level onto other people, and it's just simply NOT going to work! What I'll put up with, I know Chuck, Connie, Misty, and others are NOT going to put up with. Yet I won't put up with things say, Tula would. It's like we've decided to draw battle lines over the whole deal. I had hoped over time, and if everyone stopped stabbing at the wound, things would heal and NO, they won't be the exact same again. But people would look past their differences, and just get along!

Happens to me at work all the time. I have to learn to tolerate stupid people at work. I can't just go off on them all the time, yelling and screaming. That just isn't tolerated! BUT, that doesn't mean I have to go sit with them during break time. I don't HAVE to chum with them. And that doesn't make me a bad guy for not doing so!

So I ask, is there a point for taking stabs at Rich? Is there a point for taking stabs at those who want to seperate and chat elsewhere? I don't think there is a bad or good side in this mess! Both have points to be made. That I agree with. But both sides love corns, from the annoying newbie who won't crack a book or read previous posts, to the one who knows every angle to breeding, and genetics...

Don't allow this to get out of hand. Notice how certain key people really haven't been the ones bickering so much? I think we should take their example and just leave it alone. Try NOT to start up fights like this out in the open. If you have specific issues. Try privately, or in the chat rooms amongst friends. Rich did a good thing locking up that other nasty long thread. But now a new one got started. And you don't know how mad I was to see this! Not again!

Is this the example we give to those young members who come in here? Is this the best we can do?

Put the hatchets down. Please.

 

[Emanon]

Not taking sides, just wanted to point out a thing or 2...

1) I can see the issue with having 2 canadian threads...there's no point! Rebecca could have made her own forum w/out specifically making it a canadian forum. It would be like having 2 misc corn sub-forums...why would you do that?


Happy thanksgiving folks!

I think that Rebecca should be able to name a forum anything she wants. She paid for it... no one has the ownership of being an Canuck... Someone got offended for something that cannot be owned to be offended for!

If I open a SoCal forum and Rockymonkey opens a SoCal forum at the same time.......BIG DEAL if we wanted to come together and have one... cool... if not... we each have our own. Some will come to mine... EVERYONE will go to his because he has a basement!!! Oh well... that is the way it goes!

Bottom line... we need to be able to deal with things or many valuable people who make this site... will leave... or even splinter off

 

[carol]

Well, I hate to say it, and it's only my personal opinion, but the main cause of the problem is that some members thought they had rights equal to that of the owner, but found out they were wrong and got pissed off about it. And as time is going by, I'm unfortunately seeing this opinion verifying itself over and over again.

I don't really agree. I'm sure there are some people that feel that way, but they are a VERY small majority. It's just plain sad to see that Rich and perhaps yourself still feel that it is about these two issues.

Beats me. As best I can tell this has all blown up over two issues: (1) I moved the Google ads from the bottom of the page to the top, and (2) I had received an email from someone concerning trolling in the chat room asking that the "troll" be banned. I looked over that chat log excerpt and disagreed with the manner in which members HERE were handling the situation and requested that it cease.

I totally agree with this part of the statement below.

Personally I don't think either, or both combined, could be considered as earth shaking and enough stimulus to be producing the reactions they are here.

This IS Rich's site and Rich can do whatever he wants and our options are to deal with it or leave. Nothing wrong with that. We don't have a right to tell Rich what to do with his site. However, I do think we have a right to one thing. After volunteering time and money for years to help make this site better and always trying to work for the site's benefit, many of us have earned the right for Rich to not make up ridiculous motivations behind our actions and words and call us all immature.

Susan, if it just doesn't make sense that normally "reasonable" people would be upset over having to act maturely in chat or google ads, wouldn't you give them the benefit of doubt that maybe it's about something else?

Many people who have put a lot into this site were told to keep their cool in chat or go elsewhere. When people no longer wanted to deal with their "Wheaties being pissed in" while in the chatroom they totally complied with Rich's wishes and went else where before another eruption occurred.

What was Rich's reaction to that? Lashing out in posts that called us immature and childish. He also decided to post publicly that our motivation for leaving chat was because we had our knickers in a knot because we were asked to be civil.

Do you really think that so many people are discouraged because they were asked to do something they've been doing for years(being civil) with very a few lapses? Or do you think it's more reasonable to believe that people just have hurt feelings that Rich has such a low opinion of us all to make the accusations he did?

Like I said before, when Rich assumes the worst of people who really should have earned the benefit of doubt, some of those people will get their feelings hurt and loose some pride in their contributions here. After all, if 4 years of donating time and money hasn't earned us enough respect not to think the worst of us, what will?

That is why there is just a bit of low morale on this site. Some of us our just trying to lick our wounds and get over it. Unfortunately, everytime Rich comments that this is all about google ads or being civil in chat, it rips scab off. That's a big part of what's stopping the healing.

You are among the "most highly respected" in my book Susan, so please don't take any of this personally. I just feel like some of your statements show you are missing some of our intentions.

 

[Rich Z]

Yep. I tend to call a "spade" a "spade". And in my opinion, what I saw from some members in that chat log sent to me smacked of immaturity and NOT what I want to see coming from people on this site. If anyone feels they need the right to act immature in a chat room, then by all means, take it elsewhere.

That is not directed at anyone in particular, and is not intended to hurt anyone's feelings, it is spelling out policy here. If someone gets offended because of my requirement that they ACT like better people other then what I saw exhibited and decide to leave here because of my requirement, then I think we both will be satisfied with that result. I really don't care if it was a singular incident never repeated before, my request was that it not be repeated in the future. To have people claim "Johnnie MADE me act that way" IS childish, because that is exactly what children would say, and is not a valid excuse to allow it to continue.

And if people do leave the chat here exactly because of that reason, well I believe that is another "spade" that I am calling a "spade". It is my strongly held opinion that my request was not at all unreasonable to ask. And if it is my choice to have to allow such nonsense to continue or have people leave rather than comply, then I will choose to have people leave rather than have that sort of behavior take place here.

This has nothing at all with assuming the worst. It was taking the past and present, as exhibited by that chat log, and simply stating that I do not want it here in the future. The only assumption on my part was that if I did NOT state that, then it would continue.

I hope this spells out my position clearly (again).

 

[carol]

Let me start off saying that I am trying to come to a mutual understanding here. I'm not trying to pee in your Wheaties, I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just think you are not understanding some of us and a lot of us are getting called spades when we had nothing to do with the chat log that was reported.

Yep. I tend to call a "spade" a "spade". And in my opinion, what I saw from some members in that chat log sent to me smacked of immaturity and NOT what I want to see coming from people on this site.

You keep defending something that is not being attacked in order to avoid a valid point that is being addressed. You had a right to ask that to stop, it needed to stop, and if you look back I have always been "with" you on that one. The problem is it seems like you labeled a lot of us spades even though we weren't there. Face it, a lot of people left chat that never participated in the immature behavior that you posted about. So why would you make such a broad generalization that everyone left because they got thier knickers in a bunch because they were asked to behave like adults? I can tell you, where other people are chatting now, I have not seen ANY newcomer bashing, troll bashing, or pack mentality. So why would people leave your chat because they had to act like adults, only to go somewhere else and..... act like adults? :shrugs:

Do you see a double standard in these posts? And if not, why?

To have people claim "Johnnie MADE me act that way" IS childish, because that is exactly what children would say, and is not a valid excuse to allow it to continue.

And even if I do want to be pissy towards someone being pissy towards me? So what? That "turn the other cheek" crap is for people who like getting slapped. That DEFINITELY is not me.

Many people left chat, not because they wanted to go somewhere where they could be childish jerks, but they wanted to go somewhere where they weren't tempted to be childish jerks. Some of us never did act improperly on our feelings before we left, but like you we don't like being slapped. We also don't like being called names because we don't like being slapped.

I read the two posts above and I see a host telling his guests: I will not turn my cheek to you so don't mess with me, but I expect you to turn your checks when my other guests slap you and if you are not down with that, you are immature. Don't get me wrong, you have every right to do that. I just think things would be much better if we all worked together. It would be much more peaceful if guests turned the other cheek to each other for the sake of the host, and the host also occasionally turned the other cheek for the sake of the other guests. If things got too out of hand to bear, maybe dealing with it on a personal basis would be much better.

I don't know Rich, maybe part of it is your writing style. If I have something I want to say to or about you, you can respond with your side. Unfortunatley, when you make posts referring to "some people", "people", "some of you", that can leave a HUGE window of people you are talking about. Some people can read that and form unjustified opinions about others and some people can read that and take it personally.

If you are going to call a spade a spade, then please call the spades by name and don't address a large group of us as spades. If you don't like to drop names in public, then keep it private.

And if people do leave the chat here exactly because of that reason, well I believe that is another "spade" that I am calling a "spade". It is my strongly held opinion that my request was not at all unreasonable to ask. And if it is my choice to have to allow such nonsense to continue or have people leave rather than comply, then I will choose to have people leave rather than have that sort of behavior take place here.

To me, it seems like you made a broad generalization that everyone that left chat did so because they didn't want to be told what to do and wanted to go to a place that allowed us to act like idiots.

This has nothing at all with assuming the worst. It was taking the past and present, as exhibited by that chat log, and simply stating that I do not want it here in the future.

So do these people have a past with you that goes back further than chat logs? Perhaps they've acted maturely for years but did act childish in chat. Does this mean everything they (and others that weren't even there) do from here on out has childish motivations behind it?

I don't know how to make you understand Rich.

1) I did not leave chat because of your request.
2) I've agreed that your requirement was needed.
3) I agree you have the right to do what you want with this site.
4) I am offended that you made a broad generalization that people left chat because they didn't like having to act like adults. People can read that thread and think "Gee, Carol doesn't go to chat any more, I guess she's one of those immature people Rich talks about".

If you are going to call spades, spades, than please do it more specifically so those spades can defend themselves and so it doesn't leave the judgement up to the viewer who you are actually calling a spade

 

[CMLReptiles]

Chris,

I have to agree with Rich that you just don't seem to get it. If Rich seems to not care, in my opinion it's the not caring to explain himself over and over to people who just didn't get it the first few times. As an observer of this issue I would have to say that Rich isn't the one with the bunched panties. And Chris, yours seem to be riding you a little. :eek1:

No, see, that's the thing, I DO get it, and I'm fully aware that all the people who are now supposedly "against" Rich get it too, and by "get it" I mean Rich's side of the story. However, nothing Rich has posted as shown me that he gets "our side". True, he doesn't have to. But, if both sides can say "alright, I get what you mean by that. Sorry I acted this way and did that, but understand I only wanted this..." it would make things better. Instead, you get both sides making very good cases for things, and both sides completely ignoring the other.

I understand Rich's actions in the last few months...I don't agree with some of them, but I understand his reasoning. I also understand why several people became very upset because of his actions, and their reasoning. The problem is, like usual in life, nobody's willing to look at the whole picture. Carol is one of the few I see conceeding to Rich's valid points, yet the valid points she's made have been ignored.

 

[DAND]

However, nothing Rich has posted as shown me that he gets "our side".

I still don't see you getting it.

Maybe this will help? :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

 

[CMLReptiles]

I still don't see you getting it.

Maybe this will help? :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

I understand Rich's actions in the last few months...I don't agree with some of them, but I understand his reasoning.

There's a lot of times I show that I see the point in the chat thread, but that one's locked and I can't get to it. From here, I'm gonna stop, cause you're obviously one of those people who read the first word and come up with their own version of what was said, even though it's typed out right in front of you. What's that saying about being dragged down to their level and beaten with experience?

 

[DAND]

There's a lot of times I show that I see the point in the chat thread, but that one's locked and I can't get to it. From here, I'm gonna stop, cause you're obviously one of those people who read the first word and come up with their own version of what was said, even though it's typed out right in front of you. What's that saying about being dragged down to their level and beaten with experience?

There are more times you have shown your ignorance. I'm guessing the riding has progressed to full blown bunching, bordering on knotting. Though I'm only basing that on reading the first word you wrote.

 

[CMLReptiles]

There are more times you have shown your ignorance. I'm guessing the riding has progressed to full blown bunching, bordering on knotting. Though I'm only basing that on reading the first word you wrote.

Hmmm...so, based on your theory, by trying to help others get a point across I don't feel is coming across, I"m showing my ignorance? See, the thing is, I actually know the full side of atleast 1 story...unlike you. It really does help if you KNOW what you're talking about, cause otherwise you're just arguing for the sake of it.

 

[Rich Z]

OK, people enough already..........

First off, a couple of people here are under the mistaken impression that I am unable to understand their point. They are mistaking my disagreement with their side of it as being not understanding. They believe that by continual repetition that I will somehow reach enlightenment and "see" their point of view. I do see it, but disagree, which appears to be a foreign concept to them. Perhaps a failure on their part to conceive of the fact that they CAN be disagreed with. But trust me, it IS possible. I disagree with you. Deal with it and move on.

As for the suggestion by Carol to name names rather than using a "if the shoe fits, wear it" approach I am taking, sorry but no, that is not the appropriate way to deal with this, in my opinion. If anyone needs names to be named, then I suggest you go to the chat log segments posted in that other thread and use that as your guide. If your name is not mentioned there, and you feel YOU have acted in the same manner at some time in the past, then consider that perhaps the shoe fits YOU as well. If it doesn't then why are you acting as though it does?

There has been a secondary undercurrent where one or more people have claimed that I should give extra or special consideration to members who have been here a substantial length of time, posted a substantial number of posts, or spent money in my behalf. I guess the reasoning is that someone who has fitted into the above categories is incapable of acting in the manner to which I am objecting to. Or else I am bound to allow them free reign here to do as they please. How so? I am being asked to give such members preferential treatment? I am asked to overlook such behavior because of several factors, including, length of time here, number of posts made, money contributed, and possibly others? Sorry, but no. If the shoe fits, I don't care what the rest of your outfit looks like. I choose to treat everyone the same on my sites, from the fresh newbie who registered an hour ago, to the old hands who were among the first dozen to register after I set up these sites. And equally as well, I treat people who have never spent a dime with me the same as people who have spent tens of thousands of dollars in orders and/or advertising. That's just the way it is. That is the FAIR way to do things, and THAT is the way I do it. To do it any other way, would then have people moaning and complaining that I was unfair and biased, which I don't think anyone can deny would most definitely happen.

So in a nutshell, I have stated what I want to be policy here. It is across the board and applied evenly and FAIRLY to everyone on this site, regardless of any other extraneous considerations. This is not subject to negotiation, and there is nothing you can say that will change my opinion on this subject. If some want to get all uptight feeling they were unfairly painted with the broad brush I used, instead of naming specific names, well that really is your problem, not mine. The target of this stated policy is ANYONE inclined to act in such a manner, regardless of whether I have your name indicated in a chat log or not. If that applies to you, then I ask that you take heed. If it does not, then what is the problem? It simply doesn't apply to you, so you don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[DAND]

Hmmm...so, based on your theory, by trying to help others get a point across I don't feel is coming across, I"m showing my ignorance? See, the thing is, I actually know the full side of atleast 1 story...unlike you. It really does help if you KNOW what you're talking about, cause otherwise you're just arguing for the sake of it.

Wow, now chris knows what I know and what I don't know. Can you guess what I'm thinking now? :grin01:

BTW you just wrote:

It really does help if you KNOW what you're talking about, cause otherwise you're just arguing for the sake of it.

Yet by your own admission you only know one side of it. :dunce:

See, the thing is, I actually know the full side of atleast 1 story...

So YOU are arguing for half the sake of it then huh? :shrugs:

 

[CMLReptiles]

OK, people enough already..........

First off, a couple of people here are under the mistaken impression that I am unable to understand their point. They are mistaking my disagreement with their side of it as being not understanding. They believe that by continual repetition that I will somehow reach enlightenment and "see" their point of view. I do see it, but disagree, which appears to be a foreign concept to them. Perhaps a failure on their part to conceive of the fact that they CAN be disagreed with. But trust me, it IS possible. I disagree with you. Deal with it and move on.

You have every right to be in disagreement Rich, and by repitition I'm not trying to get you to "see the light" and come to this side or anything like that. Personally, I haven't seen any sign that you do understand this side of it. If I'm wrong, then I'm sorry for dragging things on. But I've only seen 2 people in these 2 threads, dale and carol, who said "ok, I see your point, I know I did something wrong, I just felt..." I think a "I understand what made you think that way, and I'm sorry if I worded it wrong, that's now how I meant it" from you would have gone a looooooong way.

 

[Rich Z]

Probably just my manner of writing. Pretty blunt, most of the time. Some people will interpret my words the way I had intended them, and some won't.

Just par for the course when using the written word, I suppose.

 

[CMLReptiles]

Probably just my manner of writing. Pretty blunt, most of the time. Some people will interpret my words the way I had intended them, and some won't.

Just par for the course when using the written word, I suppose.

And that's been the point all along...some people WON'T interpret your words the way you intended them...nor will some peoples words be interpreted by you teh way they intended.

 

[PtDnsr]

So the moral of the story is that you have to take some/most things with a grain of salt since we can't read body language, tone and inflection over the internet.


Now since we've all pissed in each others Wheaties can we please go out and get some pizza and beer or something? I know that feelings have been hurt all around but let's pretend that it's the holiday season and we're all feeling generous and forgive each other (or at least move on like big people). :cheers:

~Katie

 

[Dave123]

So the moral of the story is that you have to take some/most things with a grain of salt since we can't read body language, tone and inflection over the internet.


Now since we've all pissed in each others Wheaties can we please go out and get some pizza and beer or something? I know that feelings have been hurt all around but let's pretend that it's the holiday season and we're all feeling generous and forgive each other (or at least move on like big people). :cheers:

~Katie

I second that. Lets go out for some pizza and beer. Ill have a sprite though. :grin01: