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Heartbroken, baby died!

beth4000

New member
It has taken me a week to be able to sit down and type this post. I have lurked here quite a bit in the past 2 months but sadly, this is my first post. One week ago our baby cornsnake, Copper, died and I'm desperate to find some answers as to why this has happened. I am going to try give the most important info and list anything that I think might have been questionable. I know that sometimes babies just die but I really want some opinions before even trying again.

We bought the snake as a birthday gift for my 11 year old. This was not a spur of the moment purchase, he has been waiting years for this. Prior to the actual purchase I did a lot of research online and in books. This was the first time that I ever had a snake so I was kind of nervous about it. We determined that a cornsnake was the best choice for us. We bought the snake from Petco which in hindsight may not have been the best decision. I've notice a few negative remarks about Petco in this forum. He seemed to be healthy and very sociable. I'm not sure how old he was but abut 14 inches long.

We had him in a 29 gallon aquarium, they(Petco) said we could put him in the big tank right away. I had been going to keep him in something smaller at first. He seemed very content and didn't hide very much, very active and exploring his environment. For heat, we had a heat pad under one end, heat lamp over the same end and a black light at night at same end. 85 degrees on the warm end and 75 on the cool end. About 10 degrees less at night. Water on the cool end from bottle I let sit open. 3 hides, aspen bedding.

For feeding I was giving him a pink every 5 days. He always seemed to eat very well until his feeding on Jan. 25th. He turned away from the pink twice before eating it. He seemed fine until the next feeding when he completely refused. I tried again the next morning and evening and he still refused. He seemed active. I searched on here and determined to wait a couple of days before trying again. I'm not sure if he also had stopped drinking, he may have felt a bit dry. I had him out on Feb. 3rd and he seemed listless, kind of a loose grip on my hand. He still wasn't hiding and seemed to be moving around in his tank. The next morning I saw him moving around and climbing. That night when I went to try and feed him, he was dead in his hide.

The only other thing that I can think that might have been off was the humidity in his tank was very low. He shed around the end of Dec. and it did not come off in one piece. I searched on this forum and did everything that was mentioned. Luke warm baths, misting his tank once a day, moist moss in one of his hides and used shedding aid on him. I know that most of the skin was off but there might have been a little patch in the throat area yet. The tank was so dry that I continued to mist once a day and keep the moist moss in the one hide.

This all that I can think of, I hope someone can give me some insight as to what could have possibly gone wrong. It seemed to have happened so fast. The whole family was so absolutely in love with this little guy! Even my husband who is not a huge animal lover wants to try again. I decided that we need to wait for a while and talk to more people. I will also try to contact the herp. club in our area. Thanks to anyone who can help!
 
Going down this paragraph by paragraph....

A smaller tank would have been better. A content cornsnake baby is a hidden cornsnake baby. Constant cruising indicates agitation and uses up resources with no real purpose.

How were you measuring those temps? A heat light is unnecessary with a corn. They tend to do better with just belly heat, and a light can suck all the humidity out of a cage. It can also make it too hot. They're not like pythons and boas that need ambient air temperatures to a certain degree. My guys are doing fine with my current temperature for the air (70 degrees during the day) but have their heat pads with hides over those areas and so when they want to be warmer, they go there. You left a water bottle for him? I'm confused by this. A shallow bowl with water is better, as it can allow the snake to soak.

How are you controlling the temperature on the heat pad?
 
When you fed him did you put him in a feeding tub? If you left him in the tank, maybe he ingested some bedding. I'm really sorry for your loss. Those little babies are so sweet.
 
I am so sorry!
Sometimes they just don't make it...I know that doenst help you....
If it were me, I would rethink the overhead lamp, they tend to dry out the air alot.
Also, limit handling next time, I don't know if that might have been a problem...

Plus, although any baby can die, it seems that ones from pet shops die alot more often.
 
When you fed him did you put him in a feeding tub? If you left him in the tank, maybe he ingested some bedding. I'm really sorry for your loss. Those little babies are so sweet.

Yes, I did put him into a separate smaller container to feed. I always felt funny describing him as sweet to other people but that is what he was! We were concerned that if we ever got another one,the personality would not be the same.
 
Only thing I can think of is "About 10 degrees less at night." That would have made it 65F & 75F which might have been a little too cool for a hatchling. Then again, I could be wrong as I am a newcomer to corn snakes.

Don't beat yourself up too much. Snakes don't give us much of any indication they aren't feeling well so we can't always know. And from my reading here, Petco/Petsmart snakes are not always well cared for so may not be healthy when you get them, and there seems to be a lot more of them that die & get mentioned here than snakes from breeders or reptile expos (those seem usually to be sold by breeders that go to that expo).
 
How were you measuring your temperatures? Was it a stick on thermometer on the side of the cage, or a digital probe thermometer?
How exactly were you providing water?
What are you using to control the temperatures on your heat pad?
 
Sorry to hear about your loss. A few things I would look at as possible factors.

Temperature: Was the heat pad temperature controlled with the use of a rheastat or thermostat? They tend to get quite hot without either of those. Temperatures should be measured at the contact point (the glass as oppsed to the surface of the bedding. It isn't the ambient air that you want to read 85 degrees. The overhead heat lamp combined with a heat may have caused overheating. Heatlamps tend to suck the humidity out of the air as well.

I think a smaller enclosure works better on baby neonate corns as well. They don't need all that roaming room, they are more contented in a small enclosure. Water should be kept in a smal dish, large enough to allow the snake to submerge itself. The way i read it was that you left a water bottle in the snakes enclosure. Also, if the water in the bottle is tap water, and your water supply is heavily chlorinated, that can lead to digestive problems as the chlorine in the water deminishes the natural flora in the snakes digestive tract. I use tap water, but I treat the water with a reptile safe dechlorinator.

I'll ask the same question someone else did. Were you feeding your snake in its enclosure? Ingestion of a piece of aspen can cause an impaction.

Your set up seemed to provide all the comforts required, but temps and humidity would be my greatest concern. It is quite possible there were underlying problems with the snake from the get go. You can't always be sure when buying from a pet store.
 
I'm so sorry for your loss, it's amazing how fast we bond to our pets.

People have been touching on what would be my question also, how where you monitoring temps and controlling the UTH?

If you were using the "All Things Living" kit from the pet store that mat gets nightmare hot without regulation from a rheostat/dimmer.
 
Going down this paragraph by paragraph....

A smaller tank would have been better. A content cornsnake baby is a hidden cornsnake baby. Constant cruising indicates agitation and uses up resources with no real purpose.

How were you measuring those temps? A heat light is unnecessary with a corn. They tend to do better with just belly heat, and a light can suck all the humidity out of a cage. It can also make it too hot. They're not like pythons and boas that need ambient air temperatures to a certain degree. My guys are doing fine with my current temperature for the air (70 degrees during the day) but have their heat pads with hides over those areas and so when they want to be warmer, they go there. You left a water bottle for him? I'm confused by this. A shallow bowl with water is better, as it can allow the snake to soak
How are you controlling the temperature on the heat pad?

I guess that I wouldn't call his activity level "cruising". Maybe a little bit in the evenings, just not timid. He would usually curl up outside of his hides and liked to hang out in the plants.
I had 2 tape type thermometers close to the bottom, one on each end and a reg. dial type close to the bottom in the middle. I was concerned that the heat pad would not be enough, our house is pretty cold here in the North. The first night it got down to 60 degrees in his tank and I went out and bought a black light for at night. I left the heat pad on all the time and switched the lights back and forth. Everything that I read and at the pet store told me to leave it on all the time. Please don't tell me that I baked my snake! : ( I figured that I would have to do something else when the weather warmed up. I had a humidity gauge in about the center of the tank. It was always at about 40 percent and went up to 50 percent after I misted. This would not last very long. I just looked at it and it was at 60 percent sitting up there in the dark! I had a hide on each end and one in the middle. I did have a shallow water dish on the cool end. Just had the water aging (not directly from the tap) in open bottles outside the tank. It is sounding like I had the tank too warm and too dry, would this be enough to kill him? Everything I read said 85 degrees on the warm end! Thanks for the help.
 
I am so sorry!
Sometimes they just don't make it...I know that doenst help you....
If it were me, I would rethink the overhead lamp, they tend to dry out the air alot.
Also, limit handling next time, I don't know if that might have been a problem...

Plus, although any baby can die, it seems that ones from pet shops die alot more often.

You are the second person that said to nix the overhead! So much for my research!!! I just looked at the humidity gauge and it was at 60 percent with everything turned off! It was always at about 40 percent, 50 for a while after I misted. The temp was always about 85 degrees on the warm end, thermometer low on the side of the tank. We live in the north so I was very concerned about the temp being too low. The first night the temp got down to 65 degrees so I ran out the next day and got a black light for at night. I figured that I would have to do something else when the weather warmed up.
We were handling him a lot. I had read that you needed to handle babies about 15 minutes a day. We weren't doing it that much though. Always careful to wash hands before and after.
I sure hope that I didn't kill him! My son is devastated and I'm not much better off! : (
 
I had 2 tape type thermometers close to the bottom, one on each end and a reg. dial type close to the bottom in the middle.

To accurately check the heat pad temps, you need to do something like what I have pictured here:

ProbeWideangle.jpg


The thermometer probe is glued to the bottom of the tank. I used silicone, but you can use other stuff as well I suppose. Can you see the yellow thermometer in the background? That's it, and the white thing is the probe. The temps at the glass need to be 85 degrees. All other temperatures take a backseat to this temp. The heatpad MUST be controlled by a thermostat or rheostat, as all brands run too hot for corn snakes.
 
Going down this paragraph by paragraph....

A smaller tank would have been better. A content cornsnake baby is a hidden cornsnake baby. Constant cruising indicates agitation and uses up resources with no real purpose.

How were you measuring those temps? A heat light is unnecessary with a corn. They tend to do better with just belly heat, and a light can suck all the humidity out of a cage. It can also make it too hot. They're not like pythons and boas that need ambient air temperatures to a certain degree. My guys are doing fine with my current temperature for the air (70 degrees during the day) but have their heat pads with hides over those areas and so when they want to be warmer, they go there. You left a water bottle for him? I'm confused by this. A shallow bowl with water is better, as it can allow the snake to soak.

How are you controlling the temperature on the heat pad?

Sorry to hear about your loss. A few things I would look at as possible factors.

Temperature: Was the heat pad temperature controlled with the use of a rheastat or thermostat? They tend to get quite hot without either of those. Temperatures should be measured at the contact point (the glass as oppsed to the surface of the bedding. It isn't the ambient air that you want to read 85 degrees. The overhead heat lamp combined with a heat may have caused overheating. Heatlamps tend to suck the humidity out of the air as well.

I think a smaller enclosure works better on baby neonate corns as well. They don't need all that roaming room, they are more contented in a small enclosure. Water should be kept in a smal dish, large enough to allow the snake to submerge itself. The way i read it was that you left a water bottle in the snakes enclosure. Also, if the water in the bottle is tap water, and your water supply is heavily chlorinated, that can lead to digestive problems as the chlorine in the water deminishes the natural flora in the snakes digestive tract. I use tap water, but I treat the water with a reptile safe dechlorinator.

I'll ask the same question someone else did. Were you feeding your snake in its enclosure? Ingestion of a piece of aspen can cause an impaction.

Your set up seemed to provide all the comforts required, but temps and humidity would be my greatest concern. It is quite possible there were underlying problems with the snake from the get go. You can't always be sure when buying from a pet store.

I seemed to have worded about the water wrong! I had a shallow water dish in the tank and the bottles are just what I was keeping the water in to age it so that it wouldn't be directly from the tap. Yes, I did feed him in a separate container. I guess it seems to be coming down to not having a thermostat for the heat pad. No wonder he didn't hang out in the hide on the warm end! Poor little guy! I sure don't like the idea of something that I did killing him but I guess that if I knew what I did wrong I could try again. : (
 
To accurately check the heat pad temps, you need to do something like what I have pictured here:

ProbeWideangle.jpg


The thermometer probe is glued to the bottom of the tank. I used silicone, but you can use other stuff as well I suppose. Can you see the yellow thermometer in the background? That's it, and the white thing is the probe. The temps at the glass need to be 85 degrees. All other temperatures take a backseat to this temp. The heatpad MUST be controlled by a thermostat or rheostat, as all brands run too hot for corn snakes.

Thanks! I wish they would have had this info for me at the pet store. I guess that's one of the reasons not to buy there! How am I going to tell my little boy that I cooked his snake!!! : ( I would have gladly forked over the extra money! Crap, I'm crying again! : (
 
Sometimes they just don't make it. And they can look fine one night and be dead the next day. Which is probably a good thing; most of the time there isn't anything a vet could do anyway. Since you have a nice big viv, maybe you should look for a nice adult or sub-adult snake! They are a lot less fragile and thus more fun to handle. You could probably find one in the for sale section, here, even!
 
Aw, please don't cry!
We all know you didn't mean it.
The initial set up is a bit tricky.
And at least you found this place now, and alot of good people to help you.
And if you try again, there are alot of GREAT breeders here with a HUGE selection of nice babies to choose from...

Too cool is always better than too warm....
 
Everybody makes mistakes. Don't be too hard on yourself.

Here these are easy to find at local pet stores.

http://www.zilla-rules.com/products/specialty-equipment/digital-termometer-for-terrariums.htm

Just place the prob on the glass in the center of the heat mat.

This is one of the easiest ways to control the heat mat.

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...nktype=product&storeId=10051&ddkey=THDSiteMap

A heat mat plugged straight into the wall normally runs much much hotter than corns need. Best on the lamp to start with the slide mid way and then go up or down depending on what the thermometer reads.
 
Sometimes they just don't make it. And they can look fine one night and be dead the next day. Which is probably a good thing; most of the time there isn't anything a vet could do anyway. Since you have a nice big viv, maybe you should look for a nice adult or sub-adult snake! They are a lot less fragile and thus more fun to handle. You could probably find one in the for sale section, here, even!

Thank you, Nanci! I noticed over the past 2 months that people really respect your opinion. : ) and looked at your advice when we were having the shedding issues. I am glad that he was already dead when I found him and had to tell the kids. : ( I did say the same thing to my son about getting one that was a little older next time. I was thinking about maybe contacting the herp. club in our area.
 
Thank you everyone for the great advice!!! I really appreciate all of it even if some of it was hard to hear! I always pride myself with doing all the research before I jump into something. It goes to show that even misunderstanding or missing one crucial thing can make all the difference. I'm just sorry that our little Copper had to pay the price! : ( I knew that I was going to have to make some changes when the weather warmed but with our sub zero temps I was so concerned with him being too cold.
 
I'm so sorry for your loss. It's terrible to have to say goodbye to a pet, and worse when one doesn't know why.

Others have mentioned some of the same things that occur to me. Here are some of my thoughts, for what they're worth. I hope that you're soon able to take joy from a new corn.

RIP, Copper.

I know that sometimes babies just die but I really want some opinions before even trying again.

You're obviously a caring keeper, determined to make things right. Take comfort from this fact.

We bought the snake as a birthday gift for my 11 year old. This was not a spur of the moment purchase, he has been waiting years for this. Prior to the actual purchase I did a lot of research online and in books. This was the first time that I ever had a snake so I was kind of nervous about it. We determined that a cornsnake was the best choice for us. We bought the snake from Petco which in hindsight may not have been the best decision. I've notice a few negative remarks about Petco in this forum. He seemed to be healthy and very sociable. I'm not sure how old he was but abut 14 inches long.

Sometimes chain store snakes are problem snakes, but not always. My first corn came from a big chain and he's never been anything less than robustly healthy. Copper was not a delicate baby, from your description, and he was feeding well. If there are problems with pet store snakes, it's usually a feeding issue. That wasn't the case here.

We had him in a 29 gallon aquarium, they(Petco) said we could put him in the big tank right away. I had been going to keep him in something smaller at first. He seemed very content and didn't hide very much, very active and exploring his environment.

As long as there are sufficient hides, it's fine to start with a larger viv. After all, corn snakes DO live and thrive in the great outdoors. Nature is much larger than a 29-gal tank.

For heat, we had a heat pad under one end, heat lamp over the same end and a black light at night at same end. 85 degrees on the warm end and 75 on the cool end. About 10 degrees less at night. Water on the cool end from bottle I let sit open. 3 hides, aspen bedding.

As has been stated, corns need belly heat for digestion. Overhead lights cause drying, and heat lamps can actually overheat a corn. A blacklight actually produces quite a lot of heat. I advise against using one of these in a future viv. Others have asked about how you're checking temperatures. While 75/65 isn't too cool for living temperatures, this is too cool for digestion. You don't mention any regurges though, so Copper must have been able to digest his food prior to his refusals.

For feeding I was giving him a pink every 5 days. He always seemed to eat very well until his feeding on Jan. 25th. He turned away from the pink twice before eating it. He seemed fine until the next feeding when he completely refused. I tried again the next morning and evening and he still refused. He seemed active.

It's not uncommon for them to refuse feedings if they're in a shed cycle. That doesn't sound like the case here. They'll also refuse if they don't feel well. He was hesitant at one feeding, then refused the next if I read correctly. This tells me that he was developing problems as far back as Jan. 25.

I searched on here and determined to wait a couple of days before trying again. I'm not sure if he also had stopped drinking, he may have felt a bit dry. I had him out on Feb. 3rd and he seemed listless, kind of a loose grip on my hand. He still wasn't hiding and seemed to be moving around in his tank. The next morning I saw him moving around and climbing. That night when I went to try and feed him, he was dead in his hide.

The only other thing that I can think that might have been off was the humidity in his tank was very low. He shed around the end of Dec. and it did not come off in one piece. I searched on this forum and did everything that was mentioned. Luke warm baths, misting his tank once a day, moist moss in one of his hides and used shedding aid on him. I know that most of the skin was off but there might have been a little patch in the throat area yet. The tank was so dry that I continued to mist once a day and keep the moist moss in the one hide.

You were right to wait until The "little patch in the throat area" that didn't come off with his last shed may have been the ultimate problem. I'm theorizing here, and without a picture it's impossible to say for certain, but here's my thought. As time passes, skin that's still attached from an old shed become drier and tighter. It's possible that the old skin acted to constrict his throat in some way that prevented him from eating or drinking. This could also have tightened up on important blood vessels. Most of a snake's body is fairly resistant to problems from old skin constriction (though it always has a drying effect and can serve as a breeding ground for bacteria and other problems) but the throat is a vulnerable area due to its necessary flexibility.

This all that I can think of, I hope someone can give me some insight as to what could have possibly gone wrong. It seemed to have happened so fast. The whole family was so absolutely in love with this little guy! Even my husband who is not a huge animal lover wants to try again. I decided that we need to wait for a while and talk to more people. I will also try to contact the herp. club in our area. Thanks to anyone who can help!

I'm glad you're going to try again. I wish you nothing but good luck with your next corn.
 
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