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religion
- Thread starter crazyDave
- Start date
Michael823
New member
I have yet to see where evolution disproves someone's faith. It's faith! If someone has faith that God exists, and feels that their faith makes them a stronger person inside, than I see no reason to judge them.
Sure, no one can prove that God exists, simply because no one can even accurately describe who/what God is. For that same reason, no one can disprove God, because there would have to be an entity to go by, and non-believers may not see what exactly that is, therefor they can't hold that image up to scrutinize. Someone can certainly say that they feel the presence of a God, and that it feels real to them, and there's no way that anyone could disagree. And if someone feels exactly opposite, well, that's what they believe in, and there's no definitive proof that can call them wrong, either.
I tend to believe that there is a higher power, God or not. I can't fully explain why, but life is just too complex and amazing for me to believe that it's all just chance.
That's my $.02!
Sure, no one can prove that God exists, simply because no one can even accurately describe who/what God is. For that same reason, no one can disprove God, because there would have to be an entity to go by, and non-believers may not see what exactly that is, therefor they can't hold that image up to scrutinize. Someone can certainly say that they feel the presence of a God, and that it feels real to them, and there's no way that anyone could disagree. And if someone feels exactly opposite, well, that's what they believe in, and there's no definitive proof that can call them wrong, either.
I tend to believe that there is a higher power, God or not. I can't fully explain why, but life is just too complex and amazing for me to believe that it's all just chance.
That's my $.02!
Hell.... now there's another concept I have trouble with.
Common wisdom is that Satan is the master of hell, and all those poor souls who fall prey to doing bad deeds will wind up burning in hell in punishment.
Well let me get this straight... Who is it that is supposed to be BEHIND these evil deeds? "The devil made me do it!", right? So if Satan is behind the evil deeds, and he is master over hell, then why would those souls be punished by the entity that promoted their actions? Wouldn't they be rewarded for doing the devil's work by the devil?
The only way this makes sense is that if Satan is really only the caretaker of hell, and must do the bidding of the big boss upstairs when souls are sent to him (or her). Basically the warden of hell, I guess.
So you've got to wonder about how literal the rules are that would get you thrown into hell. If they are REALLY strict about that "Thou shalt not kill" rule, then I'm in REAL trouble. I can't even begin to estimate the number of mice I have killed or caused to be killed over my lifetime. So if God turns out to be a really GIANT mouse, then I'm in really deep doo-doo.... I'm sure my hell will be to be grabbed by the neck by giant tweezers and snapped against a table top every day.... :awcrap: Of course, being in the breeding cage prior to that might not seem so bad....
Common wisdom is that Satan is the master of hell, and all those poor souls who fall prey to doing bad deeds will wind up burning in hell in punishment.
Well let me get this straight... Who is it that is supposed to be BEHIND these evil deeds? "The devil made me do it!", right? So if Satan is behind the evil deeds, and he is master over hell, then why would those souls be punished by the entity that promoted their actions? Wouldn't they be rewarded for doing the devil's work by the devil?
The only way this makes sense is that if Satan is really only the caretaker of hell, and must do the bidding of the big boss upstairs when souls are sent to him (or her). Basically the warden of hell, I guess.
So you've got to wonder about how literal the rules are that would get you thrown into hell. If they are REALLY strict about that "Thou shalt not kill" rule, then I'm in REAL trouble. I can't even begin to estimate the number of mice I have killed or caused to be killed over my lifetime. So if God turns out to be a really GIANT mouse, then I'm in really deep doo-doo.... I'm sure my hell will be to be grabbed by the neck by giant tweezers and snapped against a table top every day.... :awcrap: Of course, being in the breeding cage prior to that might not seem so bad....
Jadie.Glitch
:) colubridstudios.com :)
And for CrazyDave, for all of your folly in trying to equate the existance of (a) god, you have forgotten one most important thing. If (a) god wanted it's existence known to everybody, we most assuredly would have that knowledge. The fact is, if there is a supreme entity, they want to keep their existence unknown until whatever time suits them. That's why when the motherships appear in 2012, I'll be ready to embrace our new reptilian overlords.
If God flew down and said "Hey guythz! Whazzup?!" then this whole thing would have been a waste. Lucifer was the most beautiful of all the angels, and became proud due to this fact and wanted to be greater than God, so he convinced a good portion of the kingdom of God that God was a nasty, hateful dictator. Long story short, in this short time we have on this Earth, God is giving all of creation (not just us, do you really think we're "the whole big picture"? An example, maybe, not the main event) a fair choice. He isn't going to force anyone to love them or fly down and be like "Look! Magic tricks! You gonna love me now??!" We all have the choice.. and it would be sad to see any of you on the wrong side in the end.
There's no reason to squirm.. the only people who squirm are those who haven't read the Bible. I have dealt with death, pain, adversity beyond what I thought I could bare, money issues, health issues, etc, etc.. but every single day I can say "I'm HAPPY". I no there's nothing to fear because I have been given that promise. When something bad goes down I could break down and not get back up.. or sell out and go on antidepressants... OR I can say "Thank you, God, for this trouble. I know it's hard now.. but tomorrow when I deal with the REAL issues, the situation I made through today will make tomorrow easier. And the next day will be easier to deal with because the day before was so hard."
I don't think any of the atheists that had meltdowns a few pages back were treated poorly at all. This has been a pretty tame debate so don't blame your insecurities on other people please.
oke:I went through 13 years of school being taught Darwinism. This is exactly what they told us every single year that they brought it up, so I don't blame her for thinking that. Also, Darwinism has been completely disproven. People have been documenting history for thousands of years... why haven't I seen any 6-legged horses, or cats that breathe under water yet? There's been enough time for us to see SOMETHING.. not so much as a hint of something changing. It's been a flawed theory from the beginning and a lot of the scientists that get hard-core into studying Darwinism end up dropping the theory altogether. Fine, don't believe in God.. but I see miracles every day that come from the creator, yet I haven't ONCE seen a goldfish walk across the street.
Darwinism isn't factual or scientific.. like I said.. believe what you want.. but at least KNOW what you're believing and be careful standing up for something so fervently when there are no facts.
As for not getting a mention.. I don't mean to sound cold at all so please don't think that.. but don't you have to believe in something in order to be counted in a comment like that, yes? I'm not saying you shouldn't be counted; You still mean something to me, but atheism isn't a belief, it's a lack-therof.
1 Corinthians 13:4
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."
I believe I've covered the "seeing is believing" above when quoting DeadMouse. But also, if God flew down and showed himself to you then there would be no reason for you to doubt, yes? Well he did that once. Remember Jesus? Yeah, he got nailed to a cross for trying that one. We're a hateful, self-serving race... it's a grand miracle when one of us decides that our own wants aren't what's important. Only THEN can we truly be happy. Stop thinking that "Oh if I had a house" or "man.. if only I had this morph of cornsnake" or "as soon as I get a little more money I can be happy!". As soon as we fulfill on desire, we're almost immediately deflated "well that wasn't.. THAT great.." and we only feel better when we find something else to cling to and work towards.
We're all searching for one thing.. that God-shaped hole in our hearts that only God himself can fill. God is love, and he wants his people back.. but he's not going to force you.
My closing note on that book of a post: God loves you all. Jesus died for you all. He suffered for every single sin you have committed and every single sin that you WILL commit, whether you believe him or not, he still suffered for you. Jesus didn't die from his wounds, he died of a broken heart. I personally will be trying to show him that I appreciated that, instead of slapping him in the face.
I hope none of that sounded harsh; that wasn't my intention. Just listing the facts. <3<3<3 I feel like you're all part of my family in one way or another and I hope to see the majority of you on the right side in the end.:spinner:
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ZoologyGirl
Under Tank Heather
cost vs benefit
luckycharm318
New member
If God flew down and said "Hey guythz! Whazzup?!" then this whole thing would have been a waste. Lucifer was the most beautiful of all the angels, and became proud due to this fact and wanted to be greater than God, so he convinced a good portion of the kingdom of God that God was a nasty, hateful dictator. Long story short, in this short time we have on this Earth, God is giving all of creation (not just us, do you really think we're "the whole big picture"? An example, maybe, not the main event) a fair choice. He isn't going to force anyone to love them or fly down and be like "Look! Magic tricks! You gonna love me now??!" We all have the choice.. and it would be sad to see any of you on the wrong side in the end.
There's no reason to squirm.. the only people who squirm are those who haven't read the Bible. I have dealt with death, pain, adversity beyond what I thought I could bare, money issues, health issues, etc, etc.. but every single day I can say "I'm HAPPY". I no there's nothing to fear because I have been given that promise. When something bad goes down I could break down and not get back up.. or sell out and go on antidepressants... OR I can say "Thank you, God, for this trouble. I know it's hard now.. but tomorrow when I deal with the REAL issues, the situation I made through today will make tomorrow easier. And the next day will be easier to deal with because the day before was so hard."
I don't think any of the atheists that had meltdowns a few pages back were treated poorly at all. This has been a pretty tame debate so don't blame your insecurities on other people please.
I went through 13 years of school being taught Darwinism. This is exactly what they told us every single year that they brought it up, so I don't blame her for thinking that. Also, Darwinism has been completely disproven. People have been documenting history for thousands of years... why haven't I seen any 6-legged horses, or cats that breathe under water yet? There's been enough time for us to see SOMETHING.. not so much as a hint of something changing. It's been a flawed theory from the beginning and a lot of the scientists that get hard-core into studying Darwinism end up dropping the theory altogether. Fine, don't believe in God.. but I see miracles every day that come from the creator, yet I haven't ONCE seen a goldfish walk across the street.
Darwinism isn't factual or scientific.. like I said.. believe what you want.. but at least KNOW what you're believing and be careful standing up for something so fervently when there are no facts.
As for not getting a mention.. I don't mean to sound cold at all so please don't think that.. but don't you have to believe in something in order to be counted in a comment like that, yes? I'm not saying you shouldn't be counted; You still mean something to me, but atheism isn't a belief, it's a lack-therof.
1 Corinthians 13:4
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."
I believe I've covered the "seeing is believing" above when quoting DeadMouse. But also, if God flew down and showed himself to you then there would be no reason for you to doubt, yes? Well he did that once. Remember Jesus? Yeah, he got nailed to a cross for trying that one. We're a hateful, self-serving race... it's a grand miracle when one of us decides that our own wants aren't what's important. Only THEN can we truly be happy. Stop thinking that "Oh if I had a house" or "man.. if only I had this morph of cornsnake" or "as soon as I get a little more money I can be happy!". As soon as we fulfill on desire, we're almost immediately deflated "well that wasn't.. THAT great.." and we only feel better when we find something else to cling to and work towards.
We're all searching for one thing.. that God-shaped hole in our hearts that only God himself can fill. God is love, and he wants his people back.. but he's not going to force you.
My closing note on that book of a post: God loves you all. Jesus died for you all. He suffered for every single sin you have committed and every single sin that you WILL commit, whether you believe him or not, he still suffered for you. Jesus didn't die from his wounds, he died of a broken heart. I personally will be trying to show him that I appreciated that, instead of slapping him in the face.
I hope none of that sounded harsh; that wasn't my intention. Just listing the facts. <3<3<3 I feel like you're all part of my family in one way or another and I hope to see the majority of you on the right side in the end.:spinner:
That's not an answer, and I haven't seen any other answers.
Jadie.Glitch
:) colubridstudios.com :)
Hell.... now there's another concept I have trouble with.
Common wisdom is that Satan is the master of hell, and all those poor souls who fall prey to doing bad deeds will wind up burning in hell in punishment.
Well let me get this straight... Who is it that is supposed to be BEHIND these evil deeds? "The devil made me do it!", right? So if Satan is behind the evil deeds, and he is master over hell, then why would those souls be punished by the entity that promoted their actions? Wouldn't they be rewarded for doing the devil's work by the devil?
The only way this makes sense is that if Satan is really only the caretaker of hell, and must do the bidding of the big boss upstairs when souls are sent to him (or her). Basically the warden of hell, I guess.
So you've got to wonder about how literal the rules are that would get you thrown into hell. If they are REALLY strict about that "Thou shalt not kill" rule, then I'm in REAL trouble. I can't even begin to estimate the number of mice I have killed or caused to be killed over my lifetime. So if God turns out to be a really GIANT mouse, then I'm in really deep doo-doo.... I'm sure my hell will be to be grabbed by the neck by giant tweezers and snapped against a table top every day.... :awcrap: Of course, being in the breeding cage prior to that might not seem so bad....
Maybe you missed this:
Believing that God would feel fine and dandy about us burning for all eternity is just sick and twisted. We were made "in His image" and he feels pain just like we do. What happens when your son/daughter gets hurt? Doesn't it hurt you too?! Can you imagine if you saw your son/daughter being tormented day and night? How would that make you feel?? I doubt you'd like it, let alone would you inflict this on them if they said "I don't believe in you", right? God doesn't endorse this silly theory of hell; the Bible never mentions a physical place like that ever.
"Hellfire" is an instantaneous event, and is often referred to as cleansing. This will be a last sympathetic event on God's part to save the non-believers any more pain. Each one of us is given a chance every day to make a choice. The choice is yours and you can't blame God for a choice you make each and every single day.
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Jadie.Glitch
:) colubridstudios.com :)
I guess I don't understand your comment. That was a pretty clear definition of love. I can show you other translations of it if that'd help?
Just let me know and I'll get them for you.Love is having patience, love is exhibiting kindness. Love is not being envious of those around you, and not boastful or proud. God is love. He loves you whether you choose to believe it or not.
luckycharm318
New member
I guess I don't understand your comment. That was a pretty clear definition of love. I can show you other translations of it if that'd help?
Love is having patience, love is exhibiting kindness. Love is not being envious of those around you, and not boastful or proud. God is love. He loves you whether you choose to believe it or not.
All of which you have listed, and those listed in the dictionary definition are in fact feelings, and emotions, neither of which are real objects. God does not count as a real object because, if God = love, then God = an emotion/feeling, which is not an animate/real object, which makes God not real.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Are there really people today, who went through a schooling system, who don't believe in evolution? Just amazing. People who actually believe that everything is static and unchanging, created as is by a supreme being? I could sort of understand if they thought the genetic blueprint for life was created, with evolution as a pretty amazing way of living beings adapting to changes, but no change at all? Freaky.
DeadMouse
Hungry, hungry Hognose!
It's disappointing and yet somehow not unexpected that you have misunderstood and misconstrued what I have written. I never said that a supreme being needs to show themselves in order to be believed. Heck, look at all of the people that already believe in some sort of deity without any such proof. What I said was that CrazyDave's formulation for proving the existence of such a deity was in vain. If proving God existed based upon a mere simple equation was possible, then it would have been proven long long ago by someone highly versed in theology and mathematics. I highly doubt that CrazyDave would be that person.
But first, I would like to clear the air on what I believe since I presume by what you wrote that you have assumed that I am an atheist. I am not. I am a true agnostic that believes that man does not have the ability to understand or comprehend a higher power. I was thrust into religion at an early age until I was expelled out of the second grade in a Christian school for being "possessed by the Devil" all because I was a diagnosed hyperactive child that had a penchant for being physically active rather than being a lifeless sponge while the teachers tried to drill religion into my head. Of course this led me to become angry and ignorantly embrace atheism as a teenager. What I later came to understand from a lot of soul searching and reading of many different religious texts in my 20's was that atheism was just as much of a faith based religion as was theism.
A lot of atheists ignorantly believe that atheism is about being non-religious, but it's not. The definition of religion is a system of beliefs, practices and ethics although it is usually conveyed as more a part of the belief in deities. The bottom line that I came to realize is that atheists are in no more of a position to argue that a God doesn't exist no more than theists can argue that one does. Both parties, no matter how polarized, have beliefs based upon simple faith pure and simple.
For me, that's when I came to realize that I was not endowed with the knowledge to know either way and I found it pointless to even question the validity either way. As an agnostic, I am open to all possibilities, spiritual, scientific and otherwise although I am more inclined to believe less in the existence of a God according to the mythology of the bible as was written by man. In my life, I do not place importance on having a God in my life to be a better person. I choose to be a better person of my own volition. And if God exists, then I would expect him to be intelligent enough to appreciate my reasoning for "sitting on the fence" (as some proclaim of agnostics).
This is not to say that I don't have my own beliefs or perceptions of things that I cannot explain. I just don't feel it necessary to try to equate them down to something I don't understand. Instead, I accept them for what they are or what they try bring to my life. Is it angels, spirits, aliens or ESP? Does it really matter? Maybe to some it matters most significantly but to me it's just not that important. If I was meant to understand what these perceptions were, then I would be permitted to know who, how or why I was receiving these bits of information. Unfortunately I am not.
If the belief in God, or the belief in the non-existence of God makes you happy, then so be it just as long as we can just learn to be civil and decent towards each other. Why should we fight amongst and segregate ourselves based upon something that no known man can prove or disprove let alone truly comprehend? It's silly really.
Having said all of that, there are a lot of questions and problems that the bible does indeed raise, at least from my perspective. The following is not meant to incite any type of hostility or otherwise. These are merely thoughts and perceptions that I have fancied over the years from my readings of the bible. More than likely, I probably will not respond to any responses this might probably produce merely because I have nothing to defend. But if something strikes me as interesting enough to respond to, I might.
According to the bible, God only showed himself to whom ever and whenever he pleased. This is why there was so much confusion with the Israelites during their trek to Mount Sinai with Moses. If God had merely shown himself to them, then all would have been good and understood instead of his secrecy with Moses. It was only natural that the Israelites became confused and did what they did to comfort themselves by forming idols in which to praise in lieu of God who chose not to placate their sense of confusion and feeling lost. No, in fact, God decided to exterminate them instead of enlightening them by his mere presence. It was Moses, a mere mortal man, who had to reason with God not to murder these people all because of God's anger.
When a mortal man has to intervene to speak reason to a supreme being in averting genocide, then one has to question this supreme being's behavior. I think this is why Satan, God's most beloved of Angels, was expelled out of Heaven. More than likely, he questioned the integrity of decisions of the dictatorship of God. If God was so magnanimous, why would there be any dissension at all? If man was made in God's image, I would have to assume that the Angels were created in a like fashion. If Angels, as well as man, are so flawed, then that would mean the creator would also have the same exact flaws which are clearly shown time and time again in the bible.
For all that claim that God is about benevolence if you just believe in him and do as he says, then that also rings true for any dictator from the annals of our history here on earth. It's when your closest of kin, your generals (or Angels as it were), those that you have trust in and have empowered, revolt against you, one has to start to questioning the reasons why. Obviously the leadership qualities inherit in the way God does his business appear to be flawed and have been flawed since the inception of mankind. If we are born with original sin, it's merely because man is an inquisitive animal and was created thus. If God had not wanted man to eat from the tree of knowledge, why put it there in the first place? I highly doubt there was a reason why it had to be on earth at all because if it was needed, it would still be here now and it's highly unlikely that it is.
And don't even get me started on Job.
Susan
Go Ahead, Make My Day!
I ran out of time before I could finish reading everything that has been posted. I promise to come back and finish after work. In the meantime, hubby provided me with the link to something he had me read a while back. I found it quite interesting and it's a much better mathematical "proof" than what crazyDave provided.
Odds Against Evolution
Odds Against Evolution
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Ok, how about those odds as proof that there is a guiding force behind evolution? I can see how someone could incorporate that into their belief system even if I don't. Without evolution, how is the change in the forms of life over millenia explained?
DeadMouse
Hungry, hungry Hognose!
Perhaps these might prove to be a more enlightening read:
The Miller/Urey Experiment
Wikipedia: Miller-Urey Experiment
You can (mis)use mathematics to prove or disprove practically anything if you are so inclined. It doesn't mean that we necessarily fully comprehend how all things in the universe explicitly work.
Outcast
ATPSS
I believe the real translation of the phrase was "thou shalt not commit murder"
If it was "Thou shalt not kill." Then that means that all of the Hebrew people who went to war after the 10 commandments were written and killed their enemies, because the Bible says that God sent them there so that they would know war, would be in Hell right now....
And, that means that I would be going to Hell, because I have killed a few men in my short time here on earth. Life in a war zone is hell because of some of the stuff you must do to survive, but when it is either you and your buddies, or the guy shooting at you, things become pretty clear on what has to be done.
Shiari
Blutterer
Yeah, except for that whole "if you don't do exactly as I say, my kind benevolent self is going to light you on fire for all eternity because I love you and am so kind."
I don't think any of the atheists that had meltdowns a few pages back were treated poorly at all. This has been a pretty tame debate so don't blame your insecurities on other people please.
Oh, I forgot to mention the *extreme* condescension. :headbang: Guess what, I'm not atheist. Ass-u-ming. I'm agnostic. While the atheists may have only had to deal with stupidity and condescension in this thread, public figures have said that atheists aren't fully human. This is a fact. http://richarddawkins.net/articles/3846
Even as an agnostic, I have been *literally* chased across a college campus by someone trying to convert me after I declined their offer of a bible. And by chased I mean I was running and they were running trying to tell me about how wonderful Jesus supposedly is.
AHAHAHAHAAHA. AHAHAHA. Ahah. ha. *ahem*
Evolution: small changes over time that add up to big ones. Process of natural selection. Usually quite slow.
The reason why we have breeds of dog is because that variation is what allows natural selection to work. We humans just took it to extremes. Heck, it's the same reason why we have morphs of corns... and why sunkisseds have shorter noses. Because genes change. They mutate. Most are benign, seemingly "useless". Lets say a population of corns got trapped on an island, no access to the main land anymore. And let's say the tessera gene, or one like it, pops up and for some reason, on this island, the snakes carrying that gene are slightly less likely to get eaten by something else. Over time, "normal" looking corns will become a very small minority. So now we have a phenotypical difference.
Lets say that there's a rodent shortage next, pretty big one, and the mice are adapting so that it's harder for the snakes to eat the few that are left, and a few corns "discover" some fish in a shallow pool and eat them. With this extra food source, they will be better able to live long enough and well enough to reproduce. The ones best able to gain nutrients from the fish will pass on those genes, or at least some of them, and will have more offspring than the skinnier, mouse-only snakes. So then many of the corns end up eating fish, but that means the shallows are crowded so going further out, those corns with some minor advantage at swimming/diving are going to get more food and reproduce more and the cycle begins again. Eventually... you might end up with adaptations like that of the krait.... a flattened tail to help propel through the water. Give this a few thousand years of genetic isolations... and you have a new species. In the mean time, you've also still got cornsnakes on the mainland. *le gasp*
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/06/historical_contingency_in_the.php - Look! evolution actually proved thanks to bacteria. They were even able to pinpoint *when* this particular bacteria evolved that new trait thanks to the way the expiriment was set up. Read and actually try to learn something. Learning is good for you.
To further refute:
Cats don't breathe underwater because cats evolved as a land predator that relies heavily on stealth, ambush and speed. Those were the evolutionary niches it ended up filling. This is the environment and hunting style their bodies are adapted for. Please explain how a cat breathing under water is going to benefit an animal meant to hunt on land using stealth, ambush, and speed? Please explain what circumstances would lead to it being in a situation where natural selection might come into play. You are clearly suffering from the misunderstanding that evolution is utterly random (it's NOT), and involves large-scale spontaneous changes (which it also does not).
Now an otter on the other hand, the reason why it hasn't developed an ability to breath underwater is because of the give and take balance of evolution. Yes, breathing water would be more efficient, however nature is not "efficient" when it comes to evolution. Gills worked because oxygen transferred from the water across the moist membrane. As the gills moved to become more internal, and thus more protected from the dryer air (our lungs are still moist inside, both as a hold-over, because of efficiency for oxygen transfer, and because it also acts to keep the alveoli from sticking to itself), they developed ways to deal with respiration that did not involve having to run water through the system. Eventually, you've got the lungs we do now where water is not needed and in fact is detrimental. A cat, or otter, that tried to breathe water thanks to the adaptation that is the "lung" would either drown or contract pneumonia.
So there you go.
6-legged horse: Sometimes, thanks to glitches in the genetic code, or embryo formation, an animal is born with more than 4 legs. However, these legs are not functional, and in the wild would often be detrimental. Land vertebrates started out in a tetrapod fashion. This is just how it happened to occur because of the orientation and number of fins on that fishy ancestor. To develop an extra set of *functional* limbs would require a massive change in the musculoskeletal system, including adding more vertebrae, ribs, muscles and changing the position of many existing muscles. This is not something that is going to happen because evolution is slow, and in this case any "intermediate" stages are NOT going to be functional, NOT going to provide a benefit to survival for the animal what with being a waste of resources and possibly, nay, probably interfering with the function of the current limbs, and thus NOT going to be passed on genetically. There is a *reason* we don't see many prey animals as adults in the wild with physical "oopsies!" on that scale.
Jadie.Glitch
:) colubridstudios.com :)
I have to agree that crazyDave is acting... somewhat crazy, for lack of a better word. I'm not going to argue that fact, lol. Please don't misunderstand my comments as a defense on his behalf. I'm just having fun talking with all of you. I really miss the forums! I don't know why I was away so long. <3
I've seen my fair share of Christian school teachers that have been terrible human beings and they assume that they're better than those around them, then when they can't explain something they simply shout "IT'S THE DEVIIIIL!!!!" so I can somewhat sympathize with this and I'm sorry that you were treated so poorly so young.
A lot of atheists ignorantly believe that atheism is about being non-religious, but it's not. The definition of religion is a system of beliefs, practices and ethics although it is usually conveyed as more a part of the belief in deities. The bottom line that I came to realize is that atheists are in no more of a position to argue that a God doesn't exist no more than theists can argue that one does. Both parties, no matter how polarized, have beliefs based upon simple faith pure and simple.
For me, that's when I came to realize that I was not endowed with the knowledge to know either way and I found it pointless to even question the validity either way. As an agnostic, I am open to all possibilities, spiritual, scientific and otherwise although I am more inclined to believe less in the existence of a God according to the mythology of the bible as was written by man. In my life, I do not place importance on having a God in my life to be a better person. I choose to be a better person of my own volition. And if God exists, then I would expect him to be intelligent enough to appreciate my reasoning for "sitting on the fence" (as some proclaim of agnostics).
This is not to say that I don't have my own beliefs or perceptions of things that I cannot explain. I just don't feel it necessary to try to equate them down to something I don't understand. Instead, I accept them for what they are or what they try bring to my life. Is it angels, spirits, aliens or ESP? Does it really matter? Maybe to some it matters most significantly but to me it's just not that important. If I was meant to understand what these perceptions were, then I would be permitted to know who, how or why I was receiving these bits of information. Unfortunately I am not.
If the belief in God, or the belief in the non-existence of God makes you happy, then so be it just as long as we can just learn to be civil and decent towards each other. Why should we fight amongst and segregate ourselves based upon something that no known man can prove or disprove let alone truly comprehend? It's silly really.
Having said all of that, there are a lot of questions and problems that the bible does indeed raise, at least from my perspective. The following is not meant to incite any type of hostility or otherwise. These are merely thoughts and perceptions that I have fancied over the years from my readings of the bible. More than likely, I probably will not respond to any responses this might probably produce merely because I have nothing to defend. But if something strikes me as interesting enough to respond to, I might.
Well my response to that is: There is no "luke-warm". You are either hot, or you are cold. Being Agnostic groups you right in with the Atheists. I'm not saying you share the same belief system, of that you have any solid beliefs at all. But when you're cold, you're cold. Jesus didn't say "As long as you don't say "I don't believe in you", you'll be saved." He said "He who believes in me will have eternal life". There is no room for "Ehh, maybe?". How hurtful and unfair is that to Him?
According to the bible, God only showed himself to whom ever and whenever he pleased. This is why there was so much confusion with the Israelites during their trek to Mount Sinai with Moses. If God had merely shown himself to them, then all would have been good and understood instead of his secrecy with Moses. It was only natural that the Israelites became confused and did what they did to comfort themselves by forming idols in which to praise in lieu of God who chose not to placate their sense of confusion and feeling lost. No, in fact, God decided to exterminate them instead of enlightening them by his mere presence. It was Moses, a mere mortal man, who had to reason with God not to murder these people all because of God's anger.
When a mortal man has to intervene to speak reason to a supreme being in averting genocide, then one has to question this supreme being's behavior. I think this is why Satan, God's most beloved of Angels, was expelled out of Heaven. More than likely, he questioned the integrity of decisions of the dictatorship of God. If God was so magnanimous, why would there be any dissension at all? If man was made in God's image, I would have to assume that the Angels were created in a like fashion. If Angels, as well as man, are so flawed, then that would mean the creator would also have the same exact flaws which are clearly shown time and time again in the bible.
For all that claim that God is about benevolence if you just believe in him and do as he says, then that also rings true for any dictator from the annals of our history here on earth. It's when your closest of kin, your generals (or Angels as it were), those that you have trust in and have empowered, revolt against you, one has to start to questioning the reasons why. Obviously the leadership qualities inherit in the way God does his business appear to be flawed and have been flawed since the inception of mankind. If we are born with original sin, it's merely because man is an inquisitive animal and was created thus. If God had not wanted man to eat from the tree of knowledge, why put it there in the first place? I highly doubt there was a reason why it had to be on earth at all because if it was needed, it would still be here now and it's highly unlikely that it is.
And don't even get me started on Job.
See, this is one of Satan's tricks. God may have been "angry" but he wasn't angry in the primal sense of the word that us humans comprehend. If your child has a friend that comes over and rudely says "Everything here is disgusting. The food you served me was nasty. How come you never take us to the zoo?" and then starts bullying and beating up on your child, wouldn't you say "ENOUGH." and remove the child from you house, and even ban the child from coming over again? There are things that God has done, not to satisfy his own sick pleasures, but to protect his children. Those people that were "done away" with during the 40-year-walk, were telling God "This food you give us is good, but why can't it be better? I'm fed and clothed; my clothes haven't worn AT ALL in 40 years. I haven't been starved or needed for food. You've supplied me with everything I can ever imagine.. but You're STILL not good enough for me. Not only are you not good enough for me, but I'm going to do everything I can to drag those around me down as well."
They began worshiping idols because they were misguided into thinking that the guilty pleasures of this world were more important than taking care of one another. They never once said "I don't believe God is the one helping us", they just said "God isn't doing enough".
As for the tree of knowledge. This was placed DEAD CENTER in the Garden of Eden. Not fair you say? Well before Satan became spoiled and proud there was no temptation for humans to want to do bad things at all. Life was everlasting. They knew nothing of death. When Adam sinned for the first time, God had pre-warned him that "You would die". Well he did. He became mortal and at that point there was an expiration date stamped on him that had never been there before. God showed Adam what death meant by having him make his first sacrifice to atone. He took one of his pets, a lamb, and slit it's throat and watched it die. This was Adam's first taste of death. Can you imagine? Not even having a comprehension of death, and then having something slowly die in your arms? That would be devastating.
Adam didn't receive INSTANT knowledge like Satan said he was going to. But guess what? You and I have an extensive knowledge of Good and Evil, yes? This is what was promised. I for one would rather not have known of all the terrible things we could be capable of. I'd rather we remain ignorant to that fact and spare those of us who have been needlessly hurt by one another.
I have to note, a lot of people think that sacrifice was payment and that God just liked seeing things murdered. This isn't the truth. God made it easier for people to understand that their mistakes have penalties by showing them when they sinned, what would happen to them. Back in the day people rarely sinned at all because who wants to kill their lambs? Then Jesus died for us so that we no longer have to go through that ritual to teach ourselves what happens when sin is allowed to run free. A lot of us have forgotten that sacrifice and have become lazy, making Jesus' death in vain.
Before Satan rebelled, God simply wouldn't allow his people to be tempted at all, in order to protect us from what sin does to us. Satan then began telling all of creation that God was wrong because Satan wanted to rule everything for his own selfish (not selfless, like God) desires, and in order for God to prove that He was "love" and not "hate", He allowed temptation into our lives and therefore gives us the choice to follow him or not.
Satan lies to us all the time, but God has never once lead us astray.
Our first father and mother made the choice for all of us when they said "I'd rather be just like God than to be taken care of by God." If God didn't give us the option, then one day we all would have turned on him. A lot of us have to suffer because the rest of us are still being selfish. I'm not perfect. I have the capacity to be perfect, just like everyone else, but there are times that I choose the low road instead of the high one. That's where Jesus comes in. He was God in Man's form, with all the temptations we must face every day, yet he never gave in to them. He showed the rest of creation that had doubts about the fact that there could be good in humanity, that there indeed was a shred of hope for us. Then he paid the price for all our sins so that we could have the chance to have eternal life again. He didn't have to do that. He wasn't obligated in any way. He didn't WANT to do it, in fact it tormented him, but he knew what must be done. He didn't run and hide; he offered himself up freely once he had reached as many people as he thought he could reach in his life. He gave himself up knowing that it was for the greater good.
There's been change? Really? Show me.
All I've seen is a lot of different species that have similarities. A lot of them are extinct now, but that doesn't mean they were the same thing, only pre-evolved. If the common mouse had been extinct, and we pulled up it's bones one day as a fossil, would we say "OH MAH GAWSH! It's a pre-historic bunny rabbit! It's one of their ancestors!". No, because they live during the same time period, and we can see them side-by-side, so we know that isn't true. We see them plainly right next to each other and can say "Yeah.. same family, but not the same animal."
Just because they aren't around today (or.. they aren't around us at least. Who knows, a lot of the "extinct" animals could still be running around out there in small, uncharted colonies) doesn't mean that they were some pre-evolved form of something. This ain't no Pokemon game.
Semi-related (but not really) note: Sometimes I feel like a Pokemon trainer, LOL! Gotta catch 'em all! Okeetees, Sunglow Motleys, Lavenders, Charcoals, etc, haha.
Sorry, back on track:
So you're saying that in all the time we've been able to document history, not ONE being has decided that there would be a benefit to having something different about themselves? I for one would love to have a couple extra arms. That would definitely help. OOoo! Or eyes in the back of my head! Wouldn't that be handy. Babysitting would never be the same again.
So because love is an emotion, it's not real? I've had love sucker punch me so hard before that it knocked the wind out of me. Love is real. It may be an emotion, but it's most definitely real.
For you, I will re-word my statement before: God is the epitome of love. Everything he does and everything he creates is to show us how much he loves us. Every action, every breath we can breathe, every beat our heart makes, that's love. If he didn't love us then he would have wiped us out years ago. We're a self-serving, pitiful race and I for one can't wait until it's over so we can get back on track and not have to hear every day that babies have been raped (by humans, not by God), that elderly have been abused (by humans, not by God), that animals have been neglected (by humans, not by God), etc.
<3<3<3
LBoz
Original Curmudgeon
Ms. Glitch...it's obvious that you are very loyal to your faith, but you are also very condescending to others who don't agree. The words in the bible may be very true TO YOU, but to others, they're simply words in a book. Your condescension is what many poeple despise in christians. Please stop trying to use the bible as proof of anything. My bible may be "Green Eggs and Ham."
And before you lay your drama on me, understand that I accepted christ on July 12, 1985.
And before you lay your drama on me, understand that I accepted christ on July 12, 1985.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Jadie, evolutionary changes aren't fuellled by the wishes of the individual organism. The 'being' doesn't decide it would like to have slightly longer legs, more efficient digestion of food or whatever.
Jadie.Glitch
:) colubridstudios.com :)
Did God say that? Naw, I don't think he did. I've definitely never read that. He gives us freedom of choice. He also never said you'd be burned for all eternity, which I've adressed already:
I'm not going to argue the fact that there are crazies out there, lol. I've had quite a few come to my door and scare me as well. I'm all "I already believe in God, thank you..." and they're like "BUT.. BUT!! *puts foot in door*"... "Okay, no.. please don't try to enter my house; you're scaring me. *smooshes their foot a bit*", lol.
I'm sorry for assuming that you're atheist, but as I stated before as well:
This is the most condescending thing I've seen this whole thread. That's pretty unfair of you to falsely accuse others of being condescending, just to turn around and laugh in my face because of my beliefs. I'm not trying to change you. I don't mind having a debate, and in the end it's your choice. It'd be nice to see you on the right side in the end, but I'm not going to laugh in your face when you say something I don't agree with.
I was following you up until this part. Thing adapt, yes. Things don't change. The genes are there for things to adapt. You can create hyrbids, you can breed for specific colorations, but you can't change what the animal originally was. God originally created TONS of species. They can breed with other similar species and accidentally create something that is a mix of the two, but the genes were always present. Cats aren't going to one day have wings because birds are in more abundance than mice. That's just non-sense.
Again. Very condescending. You should take your own advice about treating others fairly
oke:. Maybe people aren't condescending to you because of your beliefs, but they're condescending to you because you're the rude one first? I don't know. I don't know you personally, and I'm sure you're a great person, but your attitude has been somewhat in want during this discussion.To address your claim that E.coli has evolved, I need some clarification: Basically you're saying that, in a lab, with the proper stimuli and conditions, something can change? Okay, I'll buy that. I don't buy that it would happen out of necessity in the wild. I also don't buy that these E.coli stains are stable and would be able to survive back in their native environment. Darwinism claims that, in the wild, out of necessity things change. Show me that.
Okay, I think you were missing my point. Of course it wouldn't make sense for a horse to have 6 legs, I was using that as a broad example of how things haven't changed. But please.. for the love of all things.. I would like some solid proof that doesn't have to do with years upon years sitting in a bacteria swab tray being prodded and manipulated by scientists.
Basically what you're saying is that if something is going to change, it's going to be VERY slow, yes? Okay, but over these thousands of years, given the nature of Darwinism, everything would be just ever so slightly different, yes? Evolutionists are all about seeing solid proof of God when they don't have one shred of solid proof that things are in the process of evolving.
Gazelles would have become a bit more flexible, and maybe their bones would begin hollowing out so that they can avoid cheetahs, but I don't see that happening. They're just the same as they always were, and they're being caught and eaten just like they always have. The strong survive, yes. But everything has a threshold of how strong it can be. Are you saying that were all maxed out now? That nothing, not one thing, has any reason to have any sort of change whatsoever? Even if I didn't believe in God (and I didn't for a good portion of my life) I still just don't buy evolutionism. It's silly, silly stuff. I've seen miracles. Evoltuions? Not so much.