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The humanity of shoebox keeping?

Tula_Montage said:
How about women?! Do you want to roam to find a gal.... it could be hundreds of miles. You may never find her and if you do she will probably reject you. Or do you want her to drop from the sky like a heavenly angel and mate until your heart is content...
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Male cornsnakes must think they have it made if they are owned by someone who breeds! All the action they can handle, no roaming to find her required!
 
You are more than welcome Wade. I have a spare 64ltr in the rack at the moment. It might be a tight squeeze. But I promise you a freshly shed, hot lavender chick!
 
martin-bernstein said:
All this to say that corns, like most other pets, will do OK once their basic needs are met. But will they thrive in a shoe box the same way they will thrive in a 30long breeder equipped with rocks, shelters and plastic jungles? Probably not...
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Like Elle mentioned... some snakes actually NEED the security of a small space. They don't like to be lost in a giant vivarium. This is not to say that you could not make it work... i.e. a new hatchling in a 20L needs hides all over the place... but they don't truly NEED that space to THRIVE.

When Tara and I bought caging last year when we combined our collections, I was concerned about having snakes in "too small" tubs. I thought it would suck to never lift your head higher than 6" off the ground. So we bought the 66 qt. Animal Plastics tubs. I drilled holes in the sides, and wove fake greenery through them, along with sticks and other climbing apparatus.

I can't recall ever having seen a single snake on any of the climbing apparatus. As I write this, Tara whispers "Stricker!" So apparently I stand corrected- the black rat snake DOES climb my vines. Go me!

All the rest of them are in the same space as the snakes in the 32 qt. 6" tall "juvenile" tubs... in their hides. Buried under the aspen. Under the water dish. I don't think they care, so long as they are warm, fed and hidden.

We have a couple snakes, like Elle mentioned, that are active and good feeders. Someday I'd like to have a stack of 2' x 2' cages for them to go in, at corn temps, like we have the boids in right now. Valentino, our ghost corn, is super active and loves being out and climbing. He is in a 20long. I'd never put him into the 32 qts. It just wouldn't be right. But Freyja, the Texas leucy rat, almost never leaves her hide. I've never seen her climb a day in her life. Why does she need the extra 6" of head room then?? Sometimes I think the smarter thing to have done would have been the longer blanket boxes that are 6" tall but nearly 4' long. That's more ground space, and they DO use that!
 
Some people like to run free and feel the wind in their hair, others like to stay in the security of a ground floor 1 bedded appartment. I house my snakes according to their desires. They will let you know what they like and what they don't.

I think I will need to rehouse Beaux. He is not liking his large vivarium.... nose rub ahoy!
 
Lauren- you could try putting in hammocks for the ones that are out the most. The ones of mine that have hammocks use them regularly. The ones that don't use them get them taken away and given to someone else to try. You never know...Like, I'll come home from work and maybe 50% of the time Cherry will be lounging in her hammock. Zora uses hers more as a stepping stone to other things.
 
I have my Woma Pythons in some cages that were built for arboreal snakes. Womas are definitely not arboreal. I kind of like it because all night long I can hear them falling off the perches. Thump
 
Oh Wade, my arboreal mini tree boas spend all their time on the ground. Whereas my ground boas utilise their branches continuously! Minerva is currently coiled fare more perfectly than Siren (the chondro) could ever hope to be!
 
wade said:
I have my Woma Pythons in some cages that were built for arboreal snakes. Womas are definitely not arboreal. I kind of like it because all night long I can hear them falling off the perches. Thump
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When Tara and I had the Dumeril's boa in the bedroom, we'd be laying there late at night and hear "Rustle, rustle.... thump." We'd laugh... there goes the dum, falling off her stick.

I now have Chaos the Children's python in that tank at school, with the tree-type climbing apparatus. He loves it, but only comes out and climbs when the kids are not around- late in the afternoon or very early morning. He doesn't want to look at them. I can't blame him... only reason I do is because I get paid to do so. ;)
 
martin-bernstein said:
Right, but then again, the question is, can you provide the same amount of cover/climbing utilities in a tub? Although corns are not arboreal they do like to climb on stuff. If you can fit a nice climbing vine or plastic plant in a tub, great, but most tubs are shorter in height than the length of a juvenile corn. In other words there's not too much space for fun stuff like climbing.
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If you're worried about them not having room to stretch upwards, or things to climb on, why not just take them out and handle them? :shrugs:

They get some exercise, and you have an excuse to handle your slithery friends. :)
 
Thanks for all the feedback I feel alot better now about it. I am buying my new system in August and Tara and Lauren if you would post a DIY of how to do the vines I think my baby corns and rats would adore it! I do think the Asian rat need more room. Thats why I am going to maybe invest in some AP cages for all the Asian rats. Jasmine of course is getting her custom built cage! Special girly!
 
I've made the transition for a lot of my snakes from tanks to tubs. I don't use a rack, but the tubs are a much easier, more efficient way of cleaning, watering, feeding, etc... Although I use tubs, I try to provide them with a fair amount of space, or at least enough to be able to roam if they choose. Sure, all of their basic necessities can be covered in the smallest of enclosures, but exercise and the freedom to move seems like a necessity to me. Perhaps they don't get the same enjoyment out of the freedom to roam as mammals, but I feel obliged to at least offer it, as it can't hurt, and no one knows for sure what goes through their minds.

I wouldn't worry too much, David, as I'm sure your snakes get the proper care and attention. But I too think about that, and wonder if I'm hindering their quality of life by not providing maximum space.
 
Michael823 said:
I've made the transition for a lot of my snakes from tanks to tubs. I don't use a rack, but the tubs are a much easier, more efficient way of cleaning, watering, feeding, etc... Although I use tubs, I try to provide them with a fair amount of space, or at least enough to be able to roam if they choose. Sure, all of their basic necessities can be covered in the smallest of enclosures, but exercise and the freedom to move seems like a necessity to me. Perhaps they don't get the same enjoyment out of the freedom to roam as mammals, but I feel obliged to at least offer it, as it can't hurt, and no one knows for sure what goes through their minds.

I wouldn't worry too much, David, as I'm sure your snakes get the proper care and attention. But I too think about that, and wonder if I'm hindering their quality of life by not providing maximum space.
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Thanks bro. I take each and everyone of them out at least once a week to stroll.
 
I have snakes I keep in tanks and snakes I keep in tubs. We just bought two 55 gallon tanks and I know which two snakes are going in them. One is my big corn female who is in a 20 long and she can't even fully stretch out, I feel she needs more, and I don't think its me placing my wants on her. My 100g rat snake will get the other 55, he is always out roaming his 20g and I would believe he will enjoy more room.....that could be me deciding what he wants/needs lol. We are making a big custom enclosure for our brb that will be more than he needs, that is for us more than the snake. He would be fine with the minimum (which quite a bit for a brb) but we want a beautiful enclosure for a beautiful snake. I like people to come into my house and think "wow she tries to do the best for her animals".......even if they don't need it. I have no problem keeping some snakes in tubs, but we like the act of setting up vivs and actually making some. I also believe that the more naturalistic a snake's enclosure the more you will see them. Or that's how it is with ours.
 
IMHO snakes don't really care how they are housed... it is important to allow some sort of stimulation by adding/moving about objects in the viv.
I disagree that snakes don't know how to enjoy/not enjoy themselves... they have simple needs, but I definitely see snakes with favorite coiling positions, favorite spots in the viv and so forth- sure, it may be rooted to temps and such... but not always. Snakes sometimes can be picky about how they react to different people- I have seen and experienced this firsthand...
Animals seek out need-fulfillment because it makes them feel -good- to do so, else there would have been no reason for them to do it- feeding quiets hunger, going to a warm spot after a meal is easiest on the metabolism and so on...

Maybe we define enjoyment differently...

I think snakes are creatures with simple needs, but they still deserve a good quality of life- something which can be done well in a rack... sometimes it's even better because it allows the snake to retain it's general need for seclusion... very few snakes in the wild hang out in plain sight.
 
As far as putting the vines into the tubs, we had drilled ventilation holes into the tubs anyway (we found that ours held too much humidity otherwise) and so we'd just poke the end of a vine out of the hole and knot it so it stayed out. Worked well for us. The ones with vines definitely LOOK nicer to us, but I don't think the snakes care one way or the other.
 
I really wannd do that. My ghost loves to climb. I may just use the vines from the Dollar Store?
 
Most of my snakes are kept in tubs, but I want to get them all in the glass vivs all nicely decorated more for my own personal enjoyment. They seem happy in their plastic tubs, especially my rainbow boa because it holds humidity really nicely.
 
In my opinion, it all depends on how big the tubs are. There isn't any difference between a 30 gallon tank and a 30 gallon tub for a snake.
But I often see that people are using smaller and smaller tubs for there snakes, to the point that the snake only has room to coil up, next to the water bowl, and has no addecate room to move. Some snakes prefer a secured cage, but that is also possible in a tank. Just put in lots of hides and plants, and the snake doesn't feel exposed all the time.
I have all my snakes in vision cages (well, herptek actually, but that's about the same as vision) and all of them make good use of the space. They all make a walk through the cage a couple times a day (or night) and move from one place to another pretty often to find a suited temperature gradient. And that is the biggest pro of tanks in my opinion, a better temp. gradient. There is a much bigger temp. gradient for the snake to choose from. They also get alot more exercise. If that is really needed is open for discussion, but they really seem to enjoy that. From time to time, I put a large branch with leafes on it in the tank, and the snakes will crawl through it and investigate it for over an hour. It's fun to watch, and I like to think that it is healthy and fun for the snakes also.

Offcourse that also can be done in a tub, but it has to be a big tub, and most people aren't using tubs that are big enough to allow doing that.

And finaly, keeping, watching and learning from the snakes is the main reason I keep them. You can keep them in a tub, but be honest, how much fun is that? You can only see the snake if you pull open the tub and disrubt the snake. You can't see much of it's behavior. If breeding snakes is your main reason to keep them, then tubs work wonderfull. You can keep much more snakes and with less effort.
I don't think it's cruel to keep snakes in a nice size tub, but I don't think that it's the best you can give them.
 
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