A parting of ways

[Kokopelli]

Hey everyone,

Due to a disagreement which I have no intention of sharing, I have decided to become less active in CS.Com.

I will be available via PM if anyone needs me for any reason.

I would like to thank everyone who have made my stay pleasant... there really are too many to count, and I do not want to miss a single name so... I hope you know I am talking about you.

I wish you all happiness, and the manifestation of everything you wish for yourselves.

Love,

Oren.

 

[diamondlil]

This makes me sad, so I'll just wish you luck, health and happiness. x

 

[MysticExotics]

Oren, I dislike this
I know we haven't always seen eye to eye, but I think that's more of a culture difference, because from what I can tell, you seem like a pretty genuine guy.

I do appreciate your view on things, regardless of whether I agree, because it shows us how different perspectives can be, with different cultures/environments.

I do hope you stick around.

 

[kshannon]

Oren I hate this! I have always found your advise and posts very informative and well thought out. I do understand you have to do whats best for you but I am afraid this forum is losing a very vital part of it if you aren't around.

 

[wstphal]

Oren, I really regret this! I understand you may feel it's necessary but I always enjoy your posts, your humor and your beautiful boa pictures.

 

[Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)]

Man, I'm going to miss having my boa mentor close at hand! I wish you were sticking around, but I understand if you can't/won't. Peeps gotta do what peeps think is right.

 

[Kali]

I will miss you here Oren!
I've always admired your animals (more and more!) and I love the way the word "tact" is not foreign to you.
I can only hope things will change sooner or later and you will reconsider!

 

[stephen]

Oren

I know there is alot of differences of personalitys here and sometimes feelings get hurt,but hopefully you stick around your knowledge helps alot and will miss the pictures of those awesome boas!

 

[Outcast]

I wish that there were a way you could stay Oren. I always enjoy reading your posts, even if I do not agree with a couple of them here and there. I respect your opinion and agree with it most of the time.

 

[Leew]

Oren, I am a new guy here and don't really know you. From the posts above you seem well liked. I am guessing your disagreement was with one or two people here. It seems wrong for you and everyone else to be punished because of the actions of one or two people.

 

[The_Thunderer]

Hey, Oren... Just pm'd you. Hope you stick around, my friend.

 

[CULEBRA85]

hey oren, im still pretty new to this post but i always enjoyed ur post, ur boa pics and all of ur very appreciated knowledge and willingness to share it with newbs like me. That will truly b missed, so i wish u much luck buddy!!!

 

[Rich Z]

Hey everyone,

Due to a disagreement which I have no intention of sharing, I have decided to become less active in CS.Com.

I will be available via PM if anyone needs me for any reason.

I would like to thank everyone who have made my stay pleasant... there really are too many to count, and I do not want to miss a single name so... I hope you know I am talking about you.

I wish you all happiness, and the manifestation of everything you wish for yourselves.

Love,

Oren.

Sorry, but I just don't care for these sorts of melodramatic exits that some members will make, leaving vague accusations of failures in members or this site in general that cause everyone to have concerns about whether they might have contributed to the leaving.

So let's just lay the cards out on the table, shall we? I assume that I am the cause of him leaving.

In a nutshell, Oren posted an ad in the classifieds section that was obviously selling animals for someone who is not a Contributor member here. One of my moderators removed that ad and, in my opinion, sent him a rather gentle suggestion to use another recommended site to advertise in such a manner where there is not this paid contributor member requirement. Heck, there wasn't even an infraction involved.

Oren obviously did not take this well, and felt that his Contributor membership was so under utilized, meaning he felt he wasn't getting his money's worth from it, that he felt that he should be exempted from this rule as a result. He expressed this to the mod who removed his ad, and also sent me a PM pretty much outlining this same line of argument, along with the claim that his paying for the Contributor membership was obviously a mistake that he would not repeat again. I personally found this attitude offensive, and told Oren that I felt this was basically extortion, telling me that I needed to bend the rules in his favor, to repay his payment of the Contributor fee, otherwise no soup for me next time it comes around....

Yeah, maybe I could have had a better bedside manner about me, and perhaps I could have couched my terms in flowery prose, but no, I tend to try to get right to the meat of the matter and get to point B from point A as directly as possible. Aw heck, I might as well just copy my PM here rather than bantering around with it...

So you believe that two wrongs now make a right? That it is OK to engage in extortion, basically telling me that I either have to let you have your way, regardless of the rules of this site, or else no contributions from you? No soup for me? (if you have ever seen that Seinfeld episode on TV)...

So tell me, when someone else tries to broker animals for someone else who is not a Contributor member on this site, what then do I tell them? In what way do I need to modify that rule that makes certain exceptions such as you feel you are entitled to? What criteria should I use to decide who the rule should be applied towards and who needs to have a blind eye turned towards them? Or should I just make it a blanket policy that all Contributor level members are exempt from the rules completely? Do I tell the moderators that Contributor members are also exempt from getting infractions while I am at it?

I do appreciate your helping to support this site with your contributions, but I am sorry that you feel that it entitles you to some exclusions from the rules as a result. I am pretty lenient with what is allowed on this site, but I do have to make SOME rules. And when I do, they are completely blind to who is a contributing member and who is not, which I believe is just and fair. Of course, with this incident as your own personal lightning rod, you will certainly disagree with my logic, but regardless, I just cannot make exceptions, otherwise why should I even bother to have such rules in the first place if they will be ignored on a whim?

Sorry I cannot tell you what you want to hear. But I do hope you see my position in this in that you are specifically asking me to slap down my moderators who are enforcing my rules, and tell them that you (and others) will be accorded exceptions to the rules depending on them throwing money my way to earn such exceptions. Just how do you think THAT will go over?

Take care,

Rich Z.

Sorry, Oren, but if you feel that my sticking to my guns and backing my mods when they enforce MY rules is an affront to you that you find offensive enough to leave this site over, then that is completely up to you. And sorry you felt the need to SLAM the door shut HARD on your way out to try to catch everyone's attention about your leaving.

 

[Kokopelli]

None at all Rich...

But at least let's put the complete picture here.

This was my original message to you:

Good day Rich- I must confess my dissappointment.
Greetings,

I have praised this site many times, but I have to admit that today one of your appointed administrators acted in a way which will assure that I won't be contributing to this site again.

I have become a contributing member as an act of good will- knowing that most likely, I will never enjoy the access people from the US have here- the inability to easily purchase or even participate in any contests because of the proximity.

I was lucky enough to be able to work with someone who can and is capable of shipping snakes to the US- so... I work with him, and basically aiding myself by helping him sell his animals.

My ad was deleted, and Susan told me I was brokering animals and that this was not allowed.

Now...
I believe that I should be entitled to -some- measure of benefit from being a contributor... but all possibilities are barred from me save from having the ability to edit my posts- the rest, I do not use.

I think that the ratio of my posts when compared to the two ads I ever placed on the sales board is indication enough that I am not here for commercial purposes.

It was a trigger happy move, and I was squeezed to fit some sort of frame of regulations without a second thought.

I donated money, and I never demanded anything for it. But I do believe that a better treatment in this case was warranted.

If this is how the administration of this site chooses to repay me for my contribution... than I understand, and will not repeat the mistake of donating again.

I fully understand that the site will live on, and I will by no means be a major loss. But that's just a horrible way to treat people.

My regards,
Oren.

 

[Kokopelli]

Here's what bothers me:

1- You accuse me of extortion, which I did not mean, nor declared. I told you that I won't be a contributing member anymore, that is all. I did not request that you "slap down" anyone, nor did I threaten you.
I said it was a trigger happy move because it wasn't run by you, it was a very quick action that entirely disregarded things I found relevant. I think it should have been run by you. And as I mentioned SEVERAL times, your resulting decision wouldn't have mattered- just the fact that this wasn't treated so quickly without second thought.

2- I told you these things in subsequent messages and you continued to ignore and accuse. Your tone being aggressive and condescending from the start.

3- You say the accusations/threats I made were vague- well of course they were vague, because I never stated or meant them. You simply prefer to first condemn and then hear out what people have to say.

4- You disrespect my wishes to say goodbye to my friends... I do not see what's so melodramatic- I love allot of the people here so I chose not to just vanish, but say I am leaving- without accusing anyone. For that, you attempt to publicly humiliate a person who helped support your site financially- and that somehow seems like a fair act to you.

5- This is YOUR site. Out of respect for that I chose to leave. I did not use the site as means to spread any accusations or really, anything, about you. It was represented as a disagreement.

You continued lashing at me and repeated the same arguments long after I grew tired of telling you that you were wrong. You simply prefer to think the worst of a person who has never violated your site's rules, contributed even though he didn't gain a whole lot from it, and all in all, even defended you from time to time when people did try to make a scene.

I hope you can finally show some measure of decent respect all human beings are entitled to and allow me to leave with some dignity? or are you going to insist that you know better than I do what I did or meant?

 

[Rich Z]

You continued lashing at me and repeated the same arguments long after I grew tired of telling you that you were wrong. You simply prefer to think the worst of a person who has never violated your site's rules, contributed even though he didn't gain a whole lot from it, and all in all, even defended you from time to time when people did try to make a scene.

"Lashing" at you? And I am WRONG to have a rule that denies Contributor members from posting ads for non-contributors? Or is it simply that you think it is WRONG that one of my mods enforced that rule against YOU and I agreed with their assessment?

As for the lashing, here's the TWO PMs I sent to you prior to this reply you made:

Obviously you did not truly understand a word that I typed, and my reply was a complete waste of my time. The only thing you wanted to hear from me was to agree with you. Nothing else would have sufficed, obviously.

Sorry about that.....

Me, offensive? Just because I don't agree with your demand that I make a special exemption for you concerning a rule here? And explained to you in detail why I cannot? You find that offensive? And yes, you did try to extort me to coerce my to make a decision to allow you to be an exemption to a rule. I do hope your mastery of the English language includes the ability to fully understand what you mean when you type the words. Perhaps your own words were not as crystal clear to me as they were to you.

Well, I really hope you find that universe you desire that revolves around you. Good luck with that search.

And I read your "swan song" thread. I suppose I should have guessed that you would try to make a melodramatic exit from the stage.

Rich Z.

My such LASHING, I engaged in......

Heck, go ahead and post your own PMs to show who is doing the "lashing" here...

I hope you can finally show some measure of decent respect all human beings are entitled to and allow me to leave with some dignity? or are you going to insist that you know better than I do what I did or meant?

Sorry, but I have found your own private messages rather short on respect myself. Instead I found them demanding and accusatory. And although it is certainly possible that there is a problem here with interpretation, yes, I do KNOW what you did, and I BELIEVE I do know what you meant. Your extreme defensiveness and redundancy with your arguments only reinforces my believe that I am correct in MY interpretation of what you were saying.

Yeah, you had a thread removed because it was a violation of the rules and one of my mods acted as I would have wished them to. You chose to blow this up to the level YOU have taken it to. Not me. Personally, I don't feel the need to get involved in issues like this and trust my mods to act appropriately. YOU are the one who came to me insisting that a mistake HAD to have been made and YOU were entitled to special considerations for some reason.

In any event, Oren, sorry you have taken such offense at my choosing to NOT exempt you from the rules here, and sorry I chose to NOT override the decision of one of my mods concerning your advertisement. And I am certainly sorry that you feel that the Contributor membership fee entitles you to so much less than you expected to get out of it here.

I do hope the people at whatever site you go off to now treat you in the manner you hope for and expect from them.

 

[Kokopelli]

*sigh*

Look, I think my English is decent but I am -not- managing the get my point across.

1- I did not know it was against regulations- not knowing is not an excuse, but it's a reason.

2- Your attitude of "guilty unless proven otherwise" is problematic. Of course you will find all sorts of ways to justify your reasoning. You blame me for not seeing your point of view? You are very busy at finding reasons to reinforce your beliefs, which are the contrary to what I am telling you.

3- I thought it should have been given a second thought- you think otherwise. That's fine- and that's the answer I would have expected, rather than telling me I was extorting you or "wanting to be special"
Your manner of delivery is far from being kind. And I don't see how the message I originally sent you warranted your subsequent reply, and behavior from that point on.
I sent several messages to try and clarify things- you continued to ignore my explanations. So yes, after about 3-4 messages I grew quite tired of your attitude and called you arrogant.

That's my crime? calling you arrogant? or God forbid, asking the site's mod to reconsider something?(just once, not repeatedly, without demanding anything)

And when I tried to leave- and didn't want to spend around an hour+ recalling everyone I would like to say bye to, I posted a thread- and you decided to make it a staging ground of humiliation.

Rich, think what you will. I think that even if you look at it from a logical point of view- this is a cornsnake site, in the US- the likelihood of this ad to be very financially effective is not very high.

I took it to the levels I did because I was hurt- hurt that you'd blame me of extortion, hurt that you'd choose to reply in such a MANNER after I supported this forum- your decision would have been accepted, it's your tone that was uncalled for. I don't care that my ad was removed. I care that you chose to be aggressive and accusatory towards a person who never meant you any harm.
No reason on earth aside from personal hurt would have driven me to "take it to this level" as you mentioned.

You can accept this, and you can stubbornly continue to believe you know better than I do what I meant.
I tend to accept people's explanations of themselves- I don't see how your interpretation is so solid that you'd completely ignore my explanations.

 

[Susan]

Oren, just an FYI, your thread was not "deleted" but moved to the "Garbage Collection" forum where it could be reviewed by Rich and returned to full status had he chosen to do so, so your accusations of a "trigger happy" action being taken against you are unfounded. You were not aware of the rule prior to posting your classified, but you were made aware of that rule as soon as possible. Your classified was a direct violation of the rule and no exception could be made without removing the rule entirely and allowing one Contributing member to sell anything owned by every Tom, Dick and Harry whether they are even a member of this site or not.

 

[Fatman608]

:-offtopic

Hey Rich or Susan,

I have a question - Texas is like another country and I am not a Contributor member so if Kokopelli gets to break one rule should I not get to break all the rules? :roflmao: Or should I be a Contributor member and live in Texas to be able to break all the rules? :rofl:

And Rich you should have said "Don't let the door hit you on your bottom on the way out" with a southerner draw.

Before I get into too much trouble I will :sidestep: out of here.

Sorry for the :-offtopic

Love the Fatman

 

[Kokopelli]

Oren, just an FYI, your thread was not "deleted" but moved to the "Garbage Collection" forum where it could be reviewed by Rich and returned to full status had he chosen to do so, so your accusations of a "trigger happy" action being taken against you are unfounded. You were not aware of the rule prior to posting your classified, but you were made aware of that rule as soon as possible. Your classified was a direct violation of the rule and no exception could be made without removing the rule entirely and allowing one Contributing member to sell anything owned by every Tom, Dick and Harry whether they are even a member of this site or not.

Susan, as I REPEATEDLY told both here and directly to Rich- I do not have an issue with the decision, nor do I have difficulty understanding the logic behind it.
Between telling me that he decided not to change your call, and accuse me of extortion there's a huge difference.
It is one thing to review my request and re-affirm your call, it is quite another to send me such an aggressive reply that blamed me for things I didn't do.

I wouldn't have decided to leave had I received a refusal- I received a message filled with allegations and in a tone I still find inappropriate, and hence, my decision to depart- and even that I was not allowed to do with decency.