Ultras and ultramel aneries

[Katrina DLB]

This is exactly what I was hoping for when I said those thinking about breeding should be forced to read this.

I respect all of the wonderful breeders here and will glady purchase quality pets from you guys.

Glad you got at least one desired result

And I'm with you - I'll never buy from a pet store again! When I am ready to add to my collection, I will definitely be searching the for sale threads in this forum.

 

[SnakeAround]

This is exactly what I was hoping for when I said those thinking about breeding should be forced to read this.

I respect all of the wonderful breeders here and will glady purchase quality pets from you guys.

I guess your idea was good indeed, I just took it wrong a bit yesterday.

 

[TandJ]

Chris, I would love to agree with "openings" in the breeder area, but when we have to compete against people who buy into the hobby that have no respect for others and are just selfish. I have no respect for them, and yes, they are the reason why I don't have much to do with this community any more... Essentially they are tallied up to hack breeders, who produce these fancy dancey morphs and get off on it, and of course they have no cares or not enough smarts to realize they are cutting their own throats..


I bred what I like, hench, creamsicko's are wonders to me, but a garbage hybrid to others.. If no one wants them, I choose carefully to the numbers of breedings I do.. No one likes the idea of having to cull anything, so if I don't breed, I likely don't cull..

@tandj: good to read you took responsibility this year, sorry for being judgemental, that was caused by the sheer idea of the culling. Yuo probably hate it just as much as i do. But it reminded me also of a thread a couple of years ago where people defended breeding despite knowing you would have to cull some.

I never took it as judgemental, I certainly hope people took the time to realize that there is often a down and dark side to things.. I won't defend breeding, its generally a poor idea by a lot of people, and we can only get so many flippers and hacks in this hobby.. The market is saturated, and will be for quite some time until people lose intrest in losing money..

 

[chris68]

It's too easy to let all the negative aspects of the hobby affect your interest tho. The TS line has the same "rap" as Creamsickos; but at least you know for sure that creams are crosses. I have to go thru the whole "well maybe it is, maybe it isn't" speech, just to represent them as honestly as possible. Shoot I can't even wholesale babies to the pet store; think they'll give me over and above what they can get for regular ghosts, snows, anery A's etc? Nope neither did I (neither did they lol) Same with my Okeetee's. My breeders are F1's who's parents were right off the ranch so to speak, true blue Locality animals; as far as my pet store goes they're just "normals" :shrugs:

I'm not dropping prices tho. My TS line will sell (or not) comparably to Sean's (VMS Herps). If folks want a $30.00 ghost there are tons of nice ones from folks here and elsewhere. Want a TS ghost, and have something unusual, pretty and well documented then look me up. Same with the Okeetee's. There are 1000's of "Looketee's" for sale; you want something that goes straight back to the Hunt Club in Jasper Co. SC I'm your guy. Not the only guy, just sayin'

And the flip side of this would be I have no problems giving snakes to people. I've given stuff away to friends, family, I slipped in an F2 TS Ghost girl with a pair of black snakes I was given away, just because I told her I'd give her a surprise for being patient. Totally worth it to see the look on her face. I passed along a beautiful ultramel charcoal het diffuse to someone I KNEW would enjoy him and incorporate him into a great breeding plan, and he was given to me, because John F. is just that kind of guy. THATS the spirit of this community, that's what makes all the petty bs worth it. I get some grief from the "brains" of this here "operation"; I'm a terrible salesman. But...I ENJOY this hobby, the minute I start to bemoan what other folks do, or have, or are doing to the market I hope someone has the b@lls to say "Dude, just get out". Tim, screw 'em all, creamsicko's rule so just do what you do

 

[carol]

I would love to say in the almost decade we have had the animals, I never made a dime, I am never going to break even, but I can tell you, my work, time and effort, pays off when I finally produce my target, even though others may have beaten me there by a century..

vs.

The market is saturated, and will be for quite some time until people lose intrest in losing money..

So have you lost intrest yet? If not, why should others?

I care sincerely about the animals, so please do not be judgemental on what I feel was the right thing to do, it was a choice and it was not an easy choice..

vs.

we have to compete against people who buy into the hobby that have no respect for others and are just selfish. I have no respect for them, and yes, they are the reason why I don't have much to do with this community any more... Essentially they are tallied up to hack breeders, who produce these fancy dancey morphs and get off on it, and of course they have no cares or not enough smarts to realize they are cutting their own throats..

For someone who asks not to be judged... you sure bang the gavel down on a lot.

It can't be both ways. So you want everyone to accept what YOU are doing and shame others for their choices. I'm having a hard time figuring out what the point of this thread is. You can do it for the love of the animals, cull your unwanted, not take a profit and it is a noble thing. Then on the other hand you state that others do it with bad business sense, ruin the market, and they are the devil? What if these others are also doing it for their target morph/love of the animals?

Why is not taking a profit noble for you and evil for others?
Why is breeding for a target morph that suits you.... noble for you and evil for others?
Why is culling by killing better than culling by selling at a discounted price, if all we care about is the animals and our target morph?

Like "nature" the market has it's own way of regulating itself. Those who are in it for the love of the animal stick around, those in it for the money are gone in a season or two.

Things are really crazy for me and I don't get a chance to stop in much anymore. Just so happens I've having some trouble sleeping tonight so I stopped in. Perhaps it's exhaustion that is keeping me from seeing straight, but all I see in this thread are double standards. I'm sure I'll be beat up for this and I won't have time to defend myself but I just can't keep myself from loving irony.

 

[crotalis40741]

This thread really saddens me, I am the first to stand up for anyones rights to say and think what they want. I just don't understand if someone is so fed up and upset at something then why continue doing it. Things are not going to get any better at anything as long as a low and negative attitude is taken towards it. All it does is bring ones self down lower and deepen the bad feelings towards something. I have talked to quite a few people on here that have been in the business for a while and I just don't see getting rich from this to begin with. Also I have heard a few talk of "old school" price lists. I just don't think that if one is doing this for profit they can try to live by times gone by. Supply and demand set the prices. Yes if everyone got out of corns but a select few then one could charge what they did back when. But who is to say who that select few would be? So should the corn world do like a lot of breeders in the dog world and use non breeding contracts on animals sold?
I am sorry if this offends anyone but is just my opinion on it. All I do know for sure is that if and when I produce hatchlings having them go to homes and be HEALTHY is my top priority. Have a good one all.

 

[carol]

It really is a catch 22. Everyone has their own reasons for breeding.... health, target morph, quality of target morph, feeding response, friendliness, and the perfectionist that tries for all of the above and more. It sounds nice to say that all you care about is healthy babies, but how many of you that say that are in the market or even willing to adopt a healthy normal hatchling?

No matter what you breed for, you are going to produce non target animals. The more selective you are, the more non target animals you are going to have. So on one hand it is noble to breed for the best of the best, but on the other, when you do, you have a lot of non target animals on your hands. And of course every breeder here wishes others didn't sell their non targets so they will get a better price for their own non targets. :shrugs: So most cull, in different ways. Killing, selling cheaply, adopting out to good homes. I'm not sure if which of these ways you choose really effects the price of your target animal.

 

[crotalis40741]

I really don't think that breeding healthy snakes is just a nice sounding thing, it should be strived for no matter what morph is involved. No offence meant to anyone is just my opinion on it.

 

[SnakeAround]

It really is a catch 22. Everyone has their own reasons for breeding.... health, target morph, quality of target morph, feeding response, friendliness, and the perfectionist that tries for all of the above and more. It sounds nice to say that all you care about is healthy babies, but how many of you that say that are in the market or even willing to adopt a healthy normal hatchling?

No matter what you breed for, you are going to produce non target animals. The more selective you are, the more non target animals you are going to have. So on one hand it is noble to breed for the best of the best, but on the other, when you do, you have a lot of non target animals on your hands. And of course every breeder here wishes others didn't sell their non targets so they will get a better price for their own non targets. :shrugs: So most cull, in different ways. Killing, selling cheaply, adopting out to good homes. I'm not sure if which of these ways you choose really effects the price of your target animal.

Could you clarify please the part in bold for me? Not sure how being more selective is going to get you more non target animals. Thanks!

I think everybody's reason to breed is for their own goals, not for the snakes themselves. Nobody is going to breed snakes because they want to produce a line that feeds very well because that's so good for the snake population, it's because they want to be known to breed snakes with great feeding response or maybe just because they want to know if it is possible. Not breeding in the recent market situation is the best one can do for the corn as a species. There is nothing noble about breeding corns IMO.

By the way, over here I think there is a market for good looking normals and amels, if you able to reach newbees in the cornsnake world. They won't pay 100 euro's for a morph if they can get a normal or amel for 10-15 euro, they don't see the big difference to justify the higher price, they are excited to own a snake anyway. Last year I had some ultramel anery's and ultramels, priced somewhere between 20 and 35 euro's, and I have hardly sold them for these prices. I had to drop to 15-20 euro's towards the end of the fair season to sell them. At the other had I had someone ask me why my normals were at the table for 10 euro while others priced them up to 15 or sometimes even 20 euro. And when I advertised the 7 remaining normal males at the start of this year for 25 euro for the group, the buyer was flabbergasted they were priced that low, he could not believe it.

I think the whole 'medium range' morphs are the worst to sell.

 

[carol]

I really don't think that breeding healthy snakes is just a nice sounding thing, it should be strived for no matter what morph is involved. No offence meant to anyone is just my opinion on it.

I agree, it is what everyone should strive for. I was just pointing out that the higher your standards the more culling there is to do when the hatchlings come out. People need to have a plan on what they are going to do with that hatchlings that don't meet their standard of being in top heath. When I said breeding for healthy babies "sounds nice" I didn't mean it wasn't important, I meant that being selective has some unpleasant but necessary sides to it.

Could you clarify please the part in bold for me? Not sure how being more selective is going to get you more non target animals. Thanks!

Well, when you bred for health then only unhealthy snakes are your non target animals. When you breed for health and good feeding response, than unhealthy and fussy feeders are your non target animals. If you breed for health, feeding response, and friendliness than unhealthy, fussy feeding, fiesty hatchlings are your non-targets. You can keep going with adding morphs and the top examples of those morphs. So the more selective you are, the number of hatchlings you won't keep for breeding goes up.

Even the best breeders will sometimes produce sub par animals. By sub par I mean great for pets, but not good for breeders. Many of the above animals that I "cull" from my breeding projects, and find pet homes for. Unless otherwise advertised, hatchlings I sell are hatchlings I would breed. If there is something about them like an overly fiesty temperment or a fussy feeding preference I definitely add a disclaimer.

 

[carol]

By the way, over here I think there is a market for good looking normals and amels, if you able to reach newbees in the cornsnake world. .

I see that here too.

 

[crotalis40741]

I agree, it is what everyone should strive for. I was just pointing out that the higher your standards the more culling there is to do when the hatchlings come out. People need to have a plan on what they are going to do with that hatchlings that don't meet their standard of being in top heath. When I said breeding for healthy babies "sounds nice" I didn't mean it wasn't important, I meant that being selective has some necessary but unpleasant sides to it.



Well, when you bred for health then only unhealthy snakes are your non target animals. When you breed for health and good feeding response, than unhealthy and fussy feeders are your non target animals. If you breed for health, feeding response, and friendliness than unhealthy, fussy feeding, fiesty hatchlings are your non-targets. You can keep going with adding morphs and the top examples of those morphs.

Even the best breeders will sometimes produce sub par animals. By sub par I mean great for pets, but not good for breeders. Many of the above animals that I "cull" from my breeding projects, and find pet homes for. Unless otherwise advertised, hatchlings I sell are hatchlings I would breed. If there is something about them like an overly fiesty temperment or a fussy feeding preference I definitely add a disclaimer.

Thank you for clarifying I appreciate it. Have a great day.

 

[SnakeAround]

Thanks too!

 

[TandJ]

Yup Carol, I bang the gavel.. Just like a lot of you do..

It can't be both ways. So you want everyone to accept what YOU are doing and shame others for their choices. I'm having a hard time figuring out what the point of this thread is. You can do it for the love of the animals, cull your unwanted, not take a profit and it is a noble thing. Then on the other hand you state that others do it with bad business sense, ruin the market, and they are the devil? What if these others are also doing it for their target morph/love of the animals?

I am not shameing others, I am telling it exactly as it has happened.. The picture fixers, the ones that have had crypto really deep in their breeding stock, the ones who encourage people to use flagyl on the snakes they bought because they were orginally sick when sent, and these are certainly some "bigger" people I am refering to.. Sheeessss, and you wonder why I pass "judgement" and really don't fit the ethics of a lot people is reasons above.. If culling an animal is bad because no one wants it, what do the above things speak of above? You called it, devil.... Its pretty obvious from what I have seen from a lot of corn snake nobility, what the intentions really are.. And I want no part in deciet.. Thank you..

 

[TandJ]

Of course, the retatliation is going to be, that I am crazy, jealous, got a chip on my shoulder, likely banning, etc.. I am not concerned what people think of me, for real..

 

[rich333]

Well,
I'll add my 2 cents as well. And like others...i might well get fried. I'm a first year breeder. i have spent the last 3 yrs. reading,searching, listening,asking,begging for info. Then it was time. 1 clutch, 14 eggs laid..9 fertile. Ultramel Charcoal X Phantom het amel. I fully intend on keeping all 9 babies if the "Snake gods" allow them to hatch and be healthy. Next year, i fully intend on at least 2 clutchs. Very Specific genes. those 2 clutches will produce Normals with Great hets. I'll be equipped to handle at least 100 babies next yr. Now, will i beable to sell them all?? Nope. im sure of that. so why breed them? because,as mentioned before, I have a target "Look" in mind. The question of culling arises....No one WANTS to do it...But it is..or will be, i fear...a harsh reality in this hobby of ours. I do not condem those that find themselves in a position to HAVE to cull, to save the rest of thier choosen project. I used to breed betta fish as a teenager...your talking ALOT of babies.....You allow them to grow to a certain size...then pick say 5-10 out of 100's of perfectly healthy babies...Thats Harsh, but it has to be done.

Just my 2 cents....

P.s.
those normals with great hets.... will be Normals het Topaz stripe And Normals het Diamond Stripe. if im lucky.

 

[SnakeAround]

Well,
I'll add my 2 cents as well. And like others...i might well get fried. I'm a first year breeder. i have spent the last 3 yrs. reading,searching, listening,asking,begging for info. Then it was time. 1 clutch, 14 eggs laid..9 fertile. Ultramel Charcoal X Phantom het amel. I fully intend on keeping all 9 babies if the "Snake gods" allow them to hatch and be healthy. Next year, i fully intend on at least 2 clutchs. Very Specific genes. those 2 clutches will produce Normals with Great hets. I'll be equipped to handle at least 100 babies next yr. Now, will i beable to sell them all?? Nope. im sure of that. so why breed them? because,as mentioned before, I have a target "Look" in mind. The question of culling arises....No one WANTS to do it...But it is..or will be, i fear...a harsh reality in this hobby of ours. I do not condem those that find themselves in a position to HAVE to cull, to save the rest of thier choosen project. I used to breed betta fish as a teenager...your talking ALOT of babies.....You allow them to grow to a certain size...then pick say 5-10 out of 100's of perfectly healthy babies...Thats Harsh, but it has to be done.

Just my 2 cents....

P.s.
those normals with great hets.... will be Normals het Topaz stripe And Normals het Diamond Stripe. if im lucky.

You never HAVE to cull if you don't breed more then you can handle or accept that you can't reach the goal you want to reach... 'HAVING' to cull 'to save a project' still is not really 'having' IMO. Bringing live to this world willingly, while excepting the fact that you might 'have' to cull some because they are not the chosen ones, seems too much like playing God without respecting lives. Baby snakes are not just disposable means to reach your personal goal IMO. I can't imagine any situation forcing me to kill healthy baby snakes I bed, except the rare case I'd need to cull my entire collection because of crypto to protect the corn snake population. I think I simply would not be able to do so because I would not be able to deal with it mentally afterwards. Might sound pretty extreme but that's how I feel about it. I'd try anything I could think of to be able to take care of them as long as needed.

 

[rich333]

After Re-reading my post.....i would like to re-cant if at all possible. As I too will take EVERY available option before culling. Giving them away, Selling to pet stores etc. And i will beable to handle those 2 clutches for sure. So culling is NOT in my immediate future. If, for some unforseen reason I feel i cannot properly fund those 2 clutches next year..they wont happen. i was Just trying to say...basically...the idea is an open book....if your ok doing it...then you have that option..i for 1 will not judge. If you can find suitable homes, or sell them, or give them away...GREAT!!! It is not my intention to breed more than i can handle. But things do happen in life that forces us to make decisions we wouldnt normally make.

 

[SnakeAround]

But things do happen in life that forces us to make decisions we wouldnt normally make.

Agreed, and 'I need to produce such and such a morph myself because I love to see baby's hatch and make it myself' doesn't belong to that domain of things IMO. I won't necessarily judge people who see culling as one of the acceptable options to get rid of baby's, and who therefore breed more or are more selective, but I do judge that way of thinking. I can't imagine how a person who really cares about the animals would be able to justify that for themselves. Not saying these people don't care, jus saying I can't get my head around it. These snake baby's lives are more valuable then our personal breeding goals.

 

[rich333]

Agreed, and 'I need to produce such and such a morph myself because I love to see baby's hatch and make it myself' doesn't belong to that domain of things IMO. I won't necessarily judge people who see culling as one of the acceptable options to get rid of baby's, and who therefore breed more or are more selective, but I do judge that way of thinking. I can't imagine how a person who really cares about the animals would be able to justify that for themselves. Not saying these people don't care, jus saying I can't get my head around it. These snake baby's lives are more valuable then our personal breeding goals.

well, I too agree....As i have never culled a group of animals(other than baby fish). the Fish was about money...all about money..i admit. I was a teenager, and not so mature..ya know. Fast forward 20-25 yrs. And my Small Collection of 6 cornsnakes have become the single most important things in my life (extreme??). Culling (as in KILLING) the babies...is not something i personally feel like i will need to do. but others may find themselves in a position to do so. I feel for that person. As far as Personal goals, Again I think if you didnt have them, then we wouldnt breed them...if we didnt breed them...then there wouldnt be all these wonderful morphs to enjoy. So we have to Have Personal goals....I choose Topaz Stripes & Diamond Stripes. And, like you said in an earlier post...if i find that i cant reach that goal...within reason...then I will need to come to grips with that fact. Right now though..i have 9 babies due to hatch any day now...And it is the Greatest feeling I've ever had.......