I can't find a picture of a snook I caught that big. Awesome!
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stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be
- Thread starter asnakecalled?
- Start date
I can't find a picture of a snook I caught that big. Awesome!
Reptilekyle64
New member
Haha lets just admit that over half of you didn't add a single damn useful or helpful fact to this thread, just wanted to talk, hell I am not even sure how many of you are even breeders. This lost its original topic a long time ago.
asnakecalled?
New member
thank you, ill go and read some more
asnakecalled?
New member
thats not the point i was trying to make, i dont mind breaders crossing other snake species but the fact i was trying to make is tell people there hybrids.
Mark Dwight
New member
These days the whole corn hybrid debate thing just makes me laugh. 
It's the same stuff I've been hearing for 30+ years. In the late '80's a well known snake breeder was breeding corn snakes to every colubrid in his collection. Emoryi, everglades rats, sinaloan milks, cal kings, gophers, red milks and bull snakes were all bred to corns before 1990. Where do you think all those genes went? Do you really believe EVERYONE that purchased those offspring only bred them to other hybrids and sold them as hybrids? Right now my local pet store is selling "corn snakes" that are to my experienced eye are obviously emoryi x corn hybrids. Folks, I really think in 2012 hybrids are in EVERYONES collection. I know there will be a lot of people here who will disagree with this...that's fine. But over the last 30 years I've seen obvious hybrids being sold as pure corns at many shows, pet stores and even specialty reptile shops that should know better.
Now, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying all the corns in the hobby are crosses. But if you think you can guarantee someone your corns are pure you are fooling yourself....even if they came straight from the field.
As another forum member said in another hybrid thread, "Get over it".
It's the same stuff I've been hearing for 30+ years. In the late '80's a well known snake breeder was breeding corn snakes to every colubrid in his collection. Emoryi, everglades rats, sinaloan milks, cal kings, gophers, red milks and bull snakes were all bred to corns before 1990. Where do you think all those genes went? Do you really believe EVERYONE that purchased those offspring only bred them to other hybrids and sold them as hybrids? Right now my local pet store is selling "corn snakes" that are to my experienced eye are obviously emoryi x corn hybrids. Folks, I really think in 2012 hybrids are in EVERYONES collection. I know there will be a lot of people here who will disagree with this...that's fine. But over the last 30 years I've seen obvious hybrids being sold as pure corns at many shows, pet stores and even specialty reptile shops that should know better. Now, don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying all the corns in the hobby are crosses. But if you think you can guarantee someone your corns are pure you are fooling yourself....even if they came straight from the field.
As another forum member said in another hybrid thread, "Get over it".
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
It's only about snake COLLECTIONS people!!!!!!!!!!!!, not about a freakin' "racial war", or a "holier than thou" attitude, or ONLY believing a snake has to have the same precise phenotype it would have in the wild to be worthy of owning or breeding or selling for chrissakes!. And it's not about squashing all of the animals of the world while hiking that look just a bit different like the one poster's smart-ass comment either. IT'S NONE OF THOSE ASININE THINGS!!!! It's about KEEPING the snakes specific or subspecific integrity intact so when they get DISPERSED OUT INTO THE HOBBY MAINSTREAM!!! so it can continue to be KNOWN to all others what the hell THE SNAKES ACTUALLY ARE so THEY CAN HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY to work with snakes that they won't have to freakin' GUESS WHAT THEY MIGHT BE!!!....CAPICHE!???. The pure irony is that if someone has to EXPLAIN why it isn't the best route to take, then there is no real point in explaining in the first place most of the time, just as this thread proves.
Here's something else a few of you obviously didn't get throughout the course of all this either because of the smart comments that were made. If NATURE produces intergrades or hybrids, it's ALL GOOD!!, and I have some wild-captured specimens myself!!(heavy gasp!!). I have some locality-specific yellow x Black rat offspring from parents captured less than 130 yards from one another (one hypo or possibly t-plus, the other parent was very typical and normal), and those are true representative of a specific locale where their ranges overlap. Now if someone produces man-made generic yellow x black rats on PURPOSE in the basement snake room, that's a different story in my opinion, because what those offspring will basically do later is potentially create confusion and dilute both subspecies that are in the hobby that they are comprised of sometime down the road.....that would only be realistic to figure.
And PLEASE stop thinking this is a hammering on cornsnake morphs free-for-all. There is so much unidentifiable CRAP out there and misrepresented milks, kings, rat's, etc..., etc.... it is just ridiculous, so don't think for one second this is about discrediting everyone's cornsnakes, because it ISN'T!!. For example, if your nephew in Nebraska bought a Pueblan milksnake from a guy at a local show in Florida, and he emailed you a photo of it and was all happy and proud of it because of what the vendor told him as he bought it. So after you see the snake he just bought, you tell him......."umm, I got news for you, that is NOT a Pueblan milksnake..LOL!, unfortunately you got taken there at the show"........then your nephew tells you "oh gosh!, I got it from Joe-Blow and he said they were some Pueblan stock you produced and sold to him.
That's the reality of the snake hobby today :shrugs:
~Doug
Here's something else a few of you obviously didn't get throughout the course of all this either because of the smart comments that were made. If NATURE produces intergrades or hybrids, it's ALL GOOD!!, and I have some wild-captured specimens myself!!(heavy gasp!!). I have some locality-specific yellow x Black rat offspring from parents captured less than 130 yards from one another (one hypo or possibly t-plus, the other parent was very typical and normal), and those are true representative of a specific locale where their ranges overlap. Now if someone produces man-made generic yellow x black rats on PURPOSE in the basement snake room, that's a different story in my opinion, because what those offspring will basically do later is potentially create confusion and dilute both subspecies that are in the hobby that they are comprised of sometime down the road.....that would only be realistic to figure.
And PLEASE stop thinking this is a hammering on cornsnake morphs free-for-all. There is so much unidentifiable CRAP out there and misrepresented milks, kings, rat's, etc..., etc.... it is just ridiculous, so don't think for one second this is about discrediting everyone's cornsnakes, because it ISN'T!!. For example, if your nephew in Nebraska bought a Pueblan milksnake from a guy at a local show in Florida, and he emailed you a photo of it and was all happy and proud of it because of what the vendor told him as he bought it. So after you see the snake he just bought, you tell him......."umm, I got news for you, that is NOT a Pueblan milksnake..LOL!, unfortunately you got taken there at the show"........then your nephew tells you "oh gosh!, I got it from Joe-Blow and he said they were some Pueblan stock you produced and sold to him.
That's the reality of the snake hobby today :shrugs:
~Doug
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
If you and fellow purists keep providing people the opportunity to buy snakes from you that are what they are, you do not have to be worried about the future. Many people are ok with a certain uncertainty when it comes to the genes of their animals, they won't worry with you about that. I know that is exactly the problem you see, but you seem not able to grasp that exactly because of that, it IS NOT a problem, it is YOUR opinion that it is a problem. What if I'd think that keeping a dog in your house as a pet is a bad thing to do, they should live outside in a yard and gaurd the house only? And people who do so are bad and egoistic? And it is a real problem because there won't be any guarding dog breeds anymore in the future? I'd have to explain why that would be a problem I think. Because if hardly anyone wants a guarding dog, there is no problem if there are none available. Same goes for the seedless watermelons. What is the problem if the market would mainly exist of those?
Maybe, if you had not called hybrid breeders lazy, uneducated and greedy, people would be willing to listen to you a bit more. The fact that you did makes us think that you think you are holier than thou. Weird, ain't it? Talking about 'good' and 'right' in reference to what you think and what others think, added to the idea that you think you are holier than thou. Weird, ain't it? As long as you cannot explain why your opinion is indeed the only right one, yet keep on talking hybrid breeders down, and keep on saying that hybrids should not be brought on the market at all, people will start thinking your opinion on this is just a principle you cannot even rationally explain. That leads to suggestions about race wars and such.
Maybe, if you had not called hybrid breeders lazy, uneducated and greedy, people would be willing to listen to you a bit more. The fact that you did makes us think that you think you are holier than thou. Weird, ain't it? Talking about 'good' and 'right' in reference to what you think and what others think, added to the idea that you think you are holier than thou. Weird, ain't it? As long as you cannot explain why your opinion is indeed the only right one, yet keep on talking hybrid breeders down, and keep on saying that hybrids should not be brought on the market at all, people will start thinking your opinion on this is just a principle you cannot even rationally explain. That leads to suggestions about race wars and such.
Ryan Beatty
New member
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
I used to be really against hybrids. I'm still not crazy about them but I am able to accept that some people like them and there is nothing wrong with that. I myself would not knowingly cross two obviously different things like a corn and a milk or even two ratsnakes that were different species (even if that is a man made definition and the snakes in the wild are not going to monitor themselves and only breed to other "pure" snakes) but whatever my personal feelings are I still do not feel it is right to tell someone else what to breed with what. Not to mention that even I did people would not stop making hybrids or always label them just because *I* want them to. It's good to educate people but IMO it's a lost cause to try and fix it now. Unless DNA testing becomes cheap and widely available we are all just going to have to live with the fact that most snakes have a good chance of being mutts and if it bothers you just pick what goes in your own collection as carefully as you can. Stick to your own standards. but don't expect to make everyone else conform to them.
@ Pure locality animals. I do like those, a lot. But how do you keep that pureness without eventually ending up with a heavily inbred population? The only clutch of snakes I ever had a problem with, the parents were siblings and so were the grandparents. A lot of the babies did poorly and didn't make it. Can I prove that was the result of inbreeding, no but every other clutch did fine for me that year. Pure lines are often limited in their genetic material and outcrossing unrelated healthy stock is a good way to make that gene pool a little more diverse. How are you going to do this if you have a limited number of "pure" founding stock, without polluting their pureness?
@ Pure locality animals. I do like those, a lot. But how do you keep that pureness without eventually ending up with a heavily inbred population? The only clutch of snakes I ever had a problem with, the parents were siblings and so were the grandparents. A lot of the babies did poorly and didn't make it. Can I prove that was the result of inbreeding, no but every other clutch did fine for me that year. Pure lines are often limited in their genetic material and outcrossing unrelated healthy stock is a good way to make that gene pool a little more diverse. How are you going to do this if you have a limited number of "pure" founding stock, without polluting their pureness?
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
You were doing pretty well, but you lost me here .......
"Pure lines are often limited in their genetic material and outcrossing unrelated healthy stock is a good way to make that gene pool a little more diverse. How are you going to do this if you have a limited number of "pure" founding stock, without polluting their pureness?"
Just so the mystery to this is known, you simply go get another snake of that very same subspecies instead of a intentionally not doing that. It doesn't have to be a rare locality morph whatsoever. How about we keep it to all the stuff that ANYONE could get and breed (if they wanted to). Last time I checked, you could get a genuine cornsnake anywhere in the entire lower eastern portion of the Eastern Seaboard. We're not talking about Panda Bears or Javan Rhinos for chrissakes...LOL! We are talking about easily accessible snakes that anyone could get (if they wanted to).......key words being "wanted to". This isn't about rare zoo projects to re-populate wild stock, or a specific locale morph there was only one of either. Comparing apples to oranges is just spinning the wheels again here.
Anyway, I've been spinning mine enough here.................
"Pure lines are often limited in their genetic material and outcrossing unrelated healthy stock is a good way to make that gene pool a little more diverse. How are you going to do this if you have a limited number of "pure" founding stock, without polluting their pureness?"
Just so the mystery to this is known, you simply go get another snake of that very same subspecies instead of a intentionally not doing that. It doesn't have to be a rare locality morph whatsoever. How about we keep it to all the stuff that ANYONE could get and breed (if they wanted to). Last time I checked, you could get a genuine cornsnake anywhere in the entire lower eastern portion of the Eastern Seaboard. We're not talking about Panda Bears or Javan Rhinos for chrissakes...LOL! We are talking about easily accessible snakes that anyone could get (if they wanted to).......key words being "wanted to". This isn't about rare zoo projects to re-populate wild stock, or a specific locale morph there was only one of either. Comparing apples to oranges is just spinning the wheels again here.
Anyway, I've been spinning mine enough here.................
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
Honestly, they don't do much for me. The colors are all wrong.
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
I really love the amel stripe jungle brook korns!!! Their spots really look like flames, awesome!
It seems like Doug is leaving the discussion without providing any argument why we all should care about the muddying of the captive bred snake population to begin with. If the breeders and buyers of that population do not care as much, it is not a problem, at least not for them or the snakes themselves. He posted a lot but I have heard no other reason than 'It is bad, people should not breed and sell hybrids because they can breed pure species'. It's a pity we have gotten any further.
It seems like Doug is leaving the discussion without providing any argument why we all should care about the muddying of the captive bred snake population to begin with. If the breeders and buyers of that population do not care as much, it is not a problem, at least not for them or the snakes themselves. He posted a lot but I have heard no other reason than 'It is bad, people should not breed and sell hybrids because they can breed pure species'. It's a pity we have gotten any further.
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
I see you either didn't read any of it at all, or you have a severe comprehension problem. I said none of the dummied-down BS you just stated. That's what you wanted to make out of it.
Really, you haven't heard anything? It's not about breeding natural or hybrids. It is about not losing species that can't be replaced. I forgot this is a CORN forum. They are not at risk, you can just go outside and find one if you want a natural corn. Other species that are not from the USA and can no longer be imported are the ones threatened by hybridizing. I am a turtle breeder, my living is made breeding and selling my turtles. I keep snakes because I enjoy them. To think you are the majority is a good example of your intelligence. You may be the majority on a site where it doesn't matter because it's all about colors but in the world wide hobby you are a small percent that cause large problems. I actually have no problem with hybrids or the people that make them. The people smart enough to figure it out are usually responsible. The problem I have is selling them to people that are not. It's not a myth that they ruin speicies that cannot be replaced, it's very real. If you kept them and didn't sell them I would comment on every picture and say how nice they look. I enjoy the "look", that's the whole point, right? The whole point is not for you, it's for anyone that reads this to try and LEARN about snakes. It will really suck when my kids want a certain species one day and its not available anymore. All because some people said it doesn't matter. What's wrong with not wanting that?
Occipitolineata
Kevin S.
Active member
Why did you show up here on a corn forum to preach the evils of hybrids if it's not a risk for corns, just other species? By your own admission, you don't even own any corns. I'm guessing Doug invited you to back him up since you two are buds, but I haven't seen either of you converting anyone here. Maybe you could just let it go already?
Ryan Beatty
New member
Here is today's work in the snake building.
Hey Doug, I'll make you a great deal on a pair of Mexi-Cal Brooks het Brooks white-sided and Cal-king albino or a pair of Knoblochorns het Corn snow stripe!
I agree with some of your points Gerards, pure species should be preserved for future generations but not a the expense of other's rights to breed what they want.
Hey Doug, I'll make you a great deal on a pair of Mexi-Cal Brooks het Brooks white-sided and Cal-king albino or a pair of Knoblochorns het Corn snow stripe!
I agree with some of your points Gerards, pure species should be preserved for future generations but not a the expense of other's rights to breed what they want.
Attachments
Actually, I didn't say anything until Ryan posted about all the crosses he makes with multiple species. I have a lot of buddys that are really big corn snake breeders and I like to come here and see all the new stuff that's made. I am friends with Doug, it had nothing to do with me posting. You seem to think I'm trying to convert someone here. I stopped posting about it and then Snakearound wanted to keep going. Don't read it if you don't want to hear about it.
That's the whole point, everyone getting to do what they want. What I want to do doesn't affect what you do.
Wc brooksi pair
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
I think I just threw up in my mouth a little....