To tell or Not to tell? (Reptile Expo Honesty)

[bekers71]

So there you are. Walking around the Expo looking for the prize deal of the day. When you happen upon a table with some unusual looking snakes. Curiosity strikes so the questions begin:

You: "What are those?"

Vender: "Those are Anery corn snakes."

You: "Really? They don't look like anery corns."

Vender:"Hmmm..do you have an anery corn?"

You: " I own several and they don't look like that. These look like some thing crossed with a corn."

Vender: "Odd. I've had these since they were babies. They are cornsnakes."

You: trying not to offend and to be nice- "How old are they? They are pretty."

Vender:"They are about a year old."

You: "Wow! A year? They are really big. Ok Thanks. They are very nice."

You walk away. Now you're wondering "what kind of idiot does that guy think I am. "

Most of you have seen the "Beast" pair that I own. And the snakes at that table looked like those. For those that haven't seen the "beast" here is a link to one post about them http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64459

Unfortunately, there are many venders that take advantage of people in this way. They cross breed a couple corns to some thing else and pass them off at shows as full corn. I know this type of thing has been happening for many years. But it concerns me a little bit. I mean, this type of business ethics makes is hard on us little guys. Some one goes to a show looking for a cornsnake, buys one to find a year of two later its a beast and is no way a full blooded corn. Now they are leery to buy from the show again. Worried they wont get what they think they are really getting. And if the person bought the snake in hopes to breed corns one day they have a big waste of time, money and snake.

These kind of breeders hurt the rest of us that are being honest. The snake pair in the link above, I would never sell those as full corns. Those guys are only 2 1/2 yrs old and he is almost 1200 grams by his self. Imagine a parent getting some thing they think is only going to be about 4 ft and 600 grams full grown for their kid. To have one of these guys 2 yrs later. Wow! What a shock!

So as small breeders, what do we do? Do you confront the venders at the shows? But there is a kink in that plan, some venders are not the breeders. They are selling for some one else. Ahhh new problem.

What do you think? Got opinions on this matter?

 

[crackerhead]

I go to the local reptile shows and I sell at them as well. I have always told people going to the shows that they need to be wary of who the buy from. Some people are honest and take great care of their animals. Others, well... I always strive to be painfully honest with regard to the health, behavior and genetic background of the animals I sell. I want to be known for the animals I raise; it's a personal thing first and then a business transaction. If an animal is a hybrid, even a distance one, then it should be sold as such. It's dishonest to say otherwise. Many people feel strongly about hybrids being introduced into the cornsnake population. I understand your politeness with the vendor, in not "calling him out" with regard to the genetics of the snakes. But if someone asks me at a show, "hey, what do you think about so and so's Anerys?" I would not hesitate to point out that IMHO they are not pure corns. Buying animals at many of the smaller shows can be like buying a Rolex from a street vendor in NY. Caveat Emptor!
Terri

 

[Nanci]

I bet any vendor at a show is going to think you don't know what you're talking about...I'd like to hope that they are deluded, not intentionally passing something off as something it is not, but I bet that's not always the case. And if you buy from a flipper- who knows what the real story is.

 

[Nanci]

At the last show I was at, some people had bought a tegu. They were showing it to another tegu vendor, who told them that it was not the type it was sold as, (I don't remember if it was Argentinian sold as Columbian, or the opposite) and then showed them the anatomical differences to look for with examples of their own tegus, and then called over another worker who had not witnessed the conversation and asked him what kind of tegu this was (he agreed with the lecturer). The person said, ok, I'm going back to the person who sold me it and I'm going to tell him what you told me and the guy said you can tell him So-and-So of Such-and-Such reptiles is who told you that and he can talk to me if he has any questions. It was an interesting interaction.

 

[bekers71]

:-offtopic Crackerhead..where abouts in Illinois are you located? We are in the southern tip.

 

[crackerhead]

Crackerhead..where abouts in Illinois are you located? We are in the southern tip

I'm in the Northern tip! By Chicago.

I forgot to add that at one show I saw a vendor with an adult Snow that they had labelled as an Amel. I tactfully,as an aside to the seller, pointed this mistake out and was told, in voice loud enough for all to hear, I didn't know cornsnake morphs very well because "amel means albino and anyone with eyes can see that snake is white!":rofl:
Terri

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Word gets around at these expos. Dishonest sellers will sooner or later do more harm than good to themselves if they tell a lie to make a quick buck. I try to tell the buyer everything sometimes it seems like people think I am giving them TMI! When shipping snakes I have been known to refund money rather than ship a snake I am worried will eat (As you are aware, Becky - The ghost stripe was finally placed as a freebie thrown into a trade with a new owner who was willing to try force feeding and last I talked to them they got him to eat on his own so at least there was a happy ending to that story...)

 

[clipclopclip]

The only dishonest sellers I have seen at shows (the whopping two I have been to), were ones selling ball pythons that were normals as other things. They would say something like, "well, this one has het pied markers!!!" Of course I may not be an expert, but het pied markers are markings that may or may not lead to a het pied...it is inconclusive. And besides, many perfectly normal ball pythons have markers and that does not make them het anything! That makes me angry. I just smile, nod my head, and move away slowly.....

 

[Plissken]

I know I am naive here, but why do vendors do this? In what way do they benefit financially?

Someone after a pet snake will most likely buy for looks above genetics, and a breeder with other corns will likely be able to see that it is not a pureblood anyway. It's a bit beyond me. :shrugs:

 

[bekers71]

I know I am naive here, but why do vendors do this? In what way do they benefit financially?

Someone after a pet snake will most likely buy for looks above genetics, and a breeder with other corns will likely be able to see that it is not a pureblood anyway. It's a bit beyond me. :shrugs:

IMO they do it to get rid of some thing they don't really like or couldn't sell other wise. They take 2 snakes and say "Hmmm wonder what these would look like?" then throw them together. When the outcome is not what was hoped for they tell tall tales. Such as the snakes mentioned that I was looking at. Those were not corns, not full corn any way. But it was his story and he was sticking to it.

 

[norsmis]

IMO they do it to get rid of some thing they don't really like or couldn't sell other wise. They take 2 snakes and say "Hmmm wonder what these would look like?" then throw them together. When the outcome is not what was hoped for they tell tall tales. Such as the snakes mentioned that I was looking at. Those were not corns, not full corn any way. But it was his story and he was sticking to it.

I disagree. I have done a lot of shows and most of the hybrids I have seen being pawned off as pure are from resellers. They buy the animals dirt cheap, not really knowing what they have and throw them in a deli cup on the table at a show. Does this take away the vendors responsibility? Absolutely not! I think whatever you put on your table is a direct reflection of your moral character and ethics. DOnt get me wrong, people can make mistakes. Its how those mistakes are dealt with that determines what a person is truly made of....

Hey Terri! :wavey: Should be seeing you at the Wheaton shows again soon....

 

[wade]

I am a business man and what you guys are talking about is just business. You have got to sell product. Call it what sells. When the market swings to rat snakes, those corns will become great plains.

I was in Lowes yesterday with my wife in the garden area. They had a pallet of bags of "Garden Soil". I said to my wife, bet they wouldn't sell much if they called it dirt.

In my business I sell quality. Many of my competitors sell price. They talk about quality but "at a much lower price". Most consumers learn the hard lesson that quality costs more. If you take the low bid you're not going to get the highest quality.

It is the same at the snake shows. If genetics are really important to you, you won't spend a lot of time at the bargin table. If it is the wildest morph you have ever seen from a breeder you have never heard of and it only costs $50.00.......nuf said.

 

[Weebonilass]

I am a business man and what you guys are talking about is just business. You have got to sell product. Call it what sells. When the market swings to rat snakes, those corns will become great plains.

I was in Lowes yesterday with my wife in the garden area. They had a pallet of bags of "Garden Soil". I said to my wife, bet they wouldn't sell much if they called it dirt.

In my business I sell quality. Many of my competitors sell price. They talk about quality but "at a much lower price". Most consumers learn the hard lesson that quality costs more. If you take the low bid you're not going to get the highest quality.

It is the same at the snake shows. If genetics are really important to you, you won't spend a lot of time at the bargin table. If it is the wildest morph you have ever seen from a breeder you have never heard of and it only costs $50.00.......nuf said.

Ever heard about false advertising? It can get your butt sued. Garden soil is still dirt, but a Great Plains Ratsnake is NOT a cornsnake. That would be like selling your Poodle as a Great Dane... after all they are both dogs....

 

[wade]

Yes dear, I have heard of false advertising. That is not what I said or was advocating. But creative labeling "garden soil or dirt" is not false advertising. A creamsicle corn or a rootbeer corn are just what they are. Hybreds. but they are still creamsicle corns.

 

[wade]

I don't know why I subject myself to this.

Do you believe everything the salesman tells you? If you do, you are being very foolish. I don't say its a good thing, I'm saying that it is the way it is. Buyer beware.

1.0 Hypo HetAnery (Kieran); 1.0 AneryMot HetBlood (Don Dorcha); 0.1 Ultramel HetCharcoal&Mot (Gailleann); .0.0.1 SunglowMot (Cerridwen); 0.1 Pewter (needs a name too)

How many snakes sold as het for something do you think really are?

 

[Weebonilass]

Yes dear, I have heard of false advertising. That is not what I said or was advocating. But creative labeling "garden soil or dirt" is not false advertising. A creamsicle corn or a rootbeer corn are just what they are. Hybreds. but they are still creamsicle corns.

They are hybrids and should be sold as such. If someone, like the fellow at the show that Becky & I were at, says they are not when they are.... that's false advertising.

As far as I'm concern a creamsicle or a rootbeer is just that.. they are just as much their other half as their corn half. In case of something like a jungle corn, probably even more.

 

[Nanci]

How many snakes sold as het for something do you think really are?

The ones I recently bought sure better be, or my breeding plans are _____ed. However, I truely believe if Sean Niland or Joe Pierce say something is het, they are positive it is. Some guy at a show you never heard of? Who knows.

That'll be what it'll be like for me when I sell babies- they're going to be het for snow or opal or lav stripe or whatever- and I'll be nobody.

 

[wade]

Nanci,
That is exactly what I a saying. You learn which breeders you can trust and believe. The others, you need to use your best judgement. If you go in with the idea that everyone is going to tell you the truth, you are going to come out disappointed. You will likely end up with a bunch of hybrids het for normal.

 

[Weebonilass]

I don't know why I subject myself to this.

Do you believe everything the salesman tells you? If you do, you are being very foolish. I don't say its a good thing, I'm saying that it is the way it is. Buyer beware.

1.0 Hypo HetAnery (Kieran); 1.0 AneryMot HetBlood (Don Dorcha); 0.1 Ultramel HetCharcoal&Mot (Gailleann); .0.0.1 SunglowMot (Cerridwen); 0.1 Pewter (needs a name too)

How many snakes sold as het for something do you think really are?

Because of who I've purchased my particular snakes from, yes, I do believe them. They stake their reputations on it. If I don't trust the seller, then I wouldn't list the hets until after I proved them out.

No, I don't believe everything I hear from a salesman, but then again, I'm not advocating that its okay for a saleman to lie to a potential buyer.

 

[v_various]

I've only ever come across a situation like that once.

An older lady, one who has been around herps probably longer than I've been alive, showed me some of her candy canes. These *amels* were just babies and already had a lot of orange ground colour. I didn't feel it was my place to lecture her, I just made a "surprised" comment of "Wow, but they're so orange!". She told me "well, some candy canes are"
-_-

I really didn't know how to continue that conversation, as the next logical step would just be to plainly say "no they're not". I've only been into snakes these last few years, but I think the difference is I do LOTS of reading, where as she is comfortable with the knowledge she already has. I also have problems at the educational events, I'm new and I don't know how to handle telling these "experienced" herpers in front of the public that no, the difference between pythons and boas is not that pythons have heat pits (though most of them are pretty awesome, and I know I'm pretty darn far from being an expert myself).

But you know, at a show where I didn't know the person I'd probably call him out if I felt confident that they were wrong, if only get let out some of that pent up frustration, haha.