co housing snakes

[SNAKEWISPERA]

Yup...The Kings are happy together,
they have been playing tag all day, chasing each other round the viv,

 

[snakewispera snr]

My guess would be Mike's pulling his/her leg... :laugh01:

mmmmmmm....Cover blown...LOL
Sorry 7d7....Bit trollish I know, I just couldn't help myself. I had to get one more in before 'The Oxford English dictionary' removes Gullible from the list of official English words.....

 

[7Dseven]

This cohabbing thing has really stirred some people up. I didnt "choose" to cohab. I just took them in as rescues, the way they already were. Cohabbed. I am researching whether to leave them that way or not. 99% on this forum have sent me very strong opinions on not cohabbing. Some could really have been a little nicer about it but hey, thats life. Some people are nice, some are a holes. (Sorry) To each his own. We are all allowed to have our opinions. I just didnt expect to get chewed out for keeping them together. I didnt mean to stir up this much mess. Some people says its great that I am trying to save these snakes, others say I should not take them in if I can not seperate them and care for them proper. I guess leaving them to die would have been a better idea?
To those of you who have sent me support for taking in these rescues.... thank you! I really appreciate it along with all the help I recieved trying to save "Chance". Who is doing much better by the way.
To those of you who dont care about the good I am trying to do and only want to look down on me for cohabbing, I am sorry you feel that way. You almost made me feel bad about taking them in, but, I know in my heart that these last 3 would not have lived much longer had I not stepped in. Even cohabbed they are better off than they would have been. I understand your opinion, may even agree, but I would never jump someone the way that a few have done.
To those of you who choose to cohab. I wont say I am for or against it yet. If it works for you, great. I will continue to research it before I make an informed decision. I dont want to just base my decision on opinions.

 

[snakewispera snr]

I didnt mean to stir up this much mess. Some people says its great that I am trying to save these snakes, others say I should not take them in if I can not seperate them and care for them proper. I guess leaving them to die would have been a better idea?

If you had read the entire thread instead of voting and posting you would of saw that co-hab is not done here, rescue or not.
Use your head here, rack them up separate. snakes hang out like that in the wild, they eat and hide to digest, if you handle them regular, whats the problem......

 

[kathylove]

As I have said on MANY other threads about the subject, I am not ENTIRELY against cohabbing, just ALMOST entirely against it. I have known of a couple of instances where very experienced keepers set up community tanks with certain herps in large, enriched enclosures, and found it to be entertaining, educational, and kept healthy herps that way.

But I ALWAYS advise beginners and intermediate keepers to avoid cohabbing because it just adds complications and dangers (the symptoms of which can be very subtle to the untrained eye), and beginners have enough to learn even when keeping things simple.

For example, you said something earlier about supposed males. That made it sound like you are not positive and have not sexed them yourself. Even if you did, sexing is about 95% accurate, not 100%. I have made a few mistakes myself, and I have sexed LOTS of babies, lol! If you got as many calls and emails each spring as I do, from people who have unexpected eggs from a very young female that is having problems, then you would also be concerned about inexperienced keepers cohabbing.

In many cases it can be done successfully for years and years. But in some cases it spells disaster. You just can't be sure until it happens. I do commend you for taking in some babies that would have died. Sounds like they are much better off with you. And you sound like you are truly trying to do your best. Once you have a few years experience and you really know your individual animals well, don't always give up your own judgment or willingness to experiment (in an educated way) to the crowds who are sure they know best. We would never learn anything new if everyone did that.

But when you take on a new project, hobby, etc, it is often best to go with the established ways that have been shown to work best - that is what I do when starting something new. Once I feel proficient at the new undertaking, that is when I may decide to try new things and prove the "experts" wrong.

Good luck with the rescues, whatever you decide to do.

 

[snakewispera snr]

Right what more do you want...GOD just spoke to you telling you it's not the best idea...

 

[7Dseven]

If you had read the entire thread instead of voting and posting you would of saw that co-hab is not done here, rescue or not.
Use your head here, rack them up separate. snakes hang out like that in the wild, they eat and hide to digest, if you handle them regular, whats the problem......

Voting? Was there a vote? I guess I missed that. My first post was asking for help to save my smallest rescue. Then I searched for threads on co-habbing so I could get some ideas on if I should seperate them even though some of these guys have lived together for 2 years before I got them. My original 2 snakes are not co-habbed. But since these last 2 sets of rescues were co-habbed, I thought I should look into it.
And obviously some people co-hab based on all the threads etc I have found. Maybe thats wrong. But thats what I am trying to find out. Never said I was for co-habbing, or that I would leave these guys together permanently. I only said I dont like the rubbermaid idea. I dont want to have so many snakes that thats what I have to go to. I like the tank idea better. Besides the fact that it looks better in my living room. And so far, knock on wood, leaving them together as they already were, has not been a problem. They appear to be used to it having been brought up together. That being said, I also stated that I plan to build something that will have the tank style but I can house more of them in a smaller space. That way they can each have their own tank. I do believe, thats using my head.

 

[snakewispera snr]

Your right.... Sorry.
It's just you come along in a long line of, my snakes are happy together brigade. Maybe if you lurked a bit more and seen the general consensus of opinion on co-hab it would of stopped you posting.
I can see you are trying to do the best for your snakes, and you have probably come to the best place for it. So I shouldn't get all up myself and help out if I can...Sorry again and stick around.....AND BLOODY LISTEN ....RIGHT.....LOL....

 

[7Dseven]

Thank you

As I have said on MANY other threads about the subject, I am not ENTIRELY against cohabbing, just ALMOST entirely against it. I have known of a couple of instances where very experienced keepers set up community tanks with certain herps in large, enriched enclosures, and found it to be entertaining, educational, and kept healthy herps that way.

But I ALWAYS advise beginners and intermediate keepers to avoid cohabbing because it just adds complications and dangers (the symptoms of which can be very subtle to the untrained eye), and beginners have enough to learn even when keeping things simple.

For example, you said something earlier about supposed males. That made it sound like you are not positive and have not sexed them yourself. Even if you did, sexing is about 95% accurate, not 100%. I have made a few mistakes myself, and I have sexed LOTS of babies, lol! If you got as many calls and emails each spring as I do, from people who have unexpected eggs from a very young female that is having problems, then you would also be concerned about inexperienced keepers cohabbing.

In many cases it can be done successfully for years and years. But in some cases it spells disaster. You just can't be sure until it happens. I do commend you for taking in some babies that would have died. Sounds like they are much better off with you. And you sound like you are truly trying to do your best. Once you have a few years experience and you really know your individual animals well, don't always give up your own judgment or willingness to experiment (in an educated way) to the crowds who are sure they know best. We would never learn anything new if everyone did that.

But when you take on a new project, hobby, etc, it is often best to go with the established ways that have been shown to work best - that is what I do when starting something new. Once I feel proficient at the new undertaking, that is when I may decide to try new things and prove the "experts" wrong.

Good luck with the rescues, whatever you decide to do.

Thanks you soo much for the advice. No I myself have not probed them. And no I dont guarantee that the reptile store did, or got it right. Right now, I was just told that they were probed and that they are 2 girls together and now these newest were supposidly all boys together. The weakest was not returned to the tank. Didnt want him stressing out thinking he had to compete with his buddies. He is soo weak. But I have not seperated the others, yet. They are only together, because they were already together. My first concern was their health. Since I plan to keep them, thought I had better find out if they should be allowed to stay together or if I should seperate them. I never expected this much negative feedback.
Actually the first thing I did when we got our 1st snake was buy one of your books and have been reading it to learn all I can. Co-hab never even came up till I took in the 2 female rescues last month. And now these latest 3 males. I want to do whats best for them so I really appreciate your input. That was my reason for researching co-habbing. Thank you for offering support and advice without jumping me for the current situation. I appreciate the knowledge that those of you who have so much experience can share. Being somewhat a newbie, I welcome constructive help.

 

[kathylove]

You can pretty much assume that all new pets are under stress trying to adjust to a new home. If they are healthy, they can handle a little stress fine. But coping with more stress, such as handling (if they aren't used to it), sickness, injury, improper temps or hiding places, or cagemates, will all add to the stress load of each snake. Some snakes (like some people) handle stress fine. But if they are exposed to pathogens, especially large numbers of them (which is more likely when cohabbing), the more stress they are under, the more likely they will be unable to fight off the pathogen. That could be true of even simple, ever-present microbes such as Salmonella, which is often present in low numbers in herps, and usually does not cause them a problem.

In my opinion, stress is highly under rated as a factor in weak or failure to thrive herps. Each new stress piled on top of another stress makes it more likely that the immune system will not be able to cope with whatever it may be presented with. So it is much better to try to add new or unnecessary stresses (such as cagemates, handling, changing type of substrate, etc) one at a time instead of all at once, or not at all if you can avoid it, especially in a weak animal.

 

[v_various]

does this mean you're going to listen to her advice though? Are you going to do the right thing? Or continue to risk your snakes wellbeing?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Out of curiosity, are you following proper quarantine procedures so that any potential disease or parasite your rescues could have doesn't spread to your established animals?

 

[7Dseven]

Your right.... Sorry.
It's just you come along in a long line of, my snakes are happy together brigade. Maybe if you lurked a bit more and seen the general consensus of opinion on co-hab it would of stopped you posting.
I can see you are trying to do the best for your snakes, and you have probably come to the best place for it. So I shouldn't get all up myself and help out if I can...Sorry again and stick around.....AND BLOODY LISTEN ....RIGHT.....LOL....

Thank you. I read a responce from Bitsy, that said"In the past, I've run into trouble separating Corns that have co-habbed for any length of time. Some seem to cope badly with the change in their environment (i.e. other snake has gone) and go off their food and generally become withdrawn. It's not a matter of "missing" the other snake in the anthropomorphic sense, just an inability to cope with a change of environment.

So be prepared if you do try to separate them in the future - don't be too surprised if they go off their food & stay in their hides more. Be prepared to put them back together if it looks like becoming a long-term issue. No point protecting them against a future potential risk, if doing so causes actual harm in the meantime."

This is why I was questioning it. I have read many responces, most are against it, a few are for it. Not having experienced it before I posted my situation. I was looking for opinions. Maybe I shouldnt have said my snakes are "happy". But they choose to sleep together when they have lots of room to get away from each other. And... They were already together, I didnt put them together.
I joined the forum to get advice and help. Constructive critism.
I appreciate the apology and appreciate the help I have recieved since joining the forum. Help, I welcome.

 

[v_various]

but you still haven't told us if you plan on listening to all the advice you've gotten here, the advice Kathy Love has given you.

"But they choose to sleep together when they have lots of room to get away from each other."

It's called competing for the best spot. I love it, just like when one dog starts dominating/humping another dog and the owner says "oh, he's just playing"!

 

[7Dseven]

Out of curiosity, are you following proper quarantine procedures so that any potential disease or parasite your rescues could have doesn't spread to your established animals?

Actually I hadnt heard of that until joining a few days ago. I do keep them seperate and sanitize my hands between going from 1 tank to another. I dont put any of the snakes together either. I was just using common sense. I hadnt thought about doing it for quarantine reasons till these newest rescues. I was worried about what all might be wrong with them based on the conditions they had been kept in. Thank you for the info. I am researching quarantine info now. How long etc? The 2 I took in a month ago have not been exposed to my established snakes, at least not directly. They are in the same room though. And of course none of them have been exposed to these newest rescues.
Thank you!

 

[ghosthousecorns]

It's a public forum, so you are going to run into personality differences. Some people will sugar coat it for you, others more straightforward and tell you straight up that cohabbing is considered wrong and why. While some may seem a bit brutal it's because they care about your snakes' well being.
I do think you did the right thing taking on the snakes especially if they were abandoned and left to starve in a filthy tank. You obviously meant well to rescue them and they are in much better hands with you now than they were before. I also think you seem like an intelligent person who will continue to do the right thing,.. of course you shouldn't believe everything you hear. But once you hear it from a majority of the people who have experience keeping these animals then hey, maybe they are onto something.

 

[7Dseven]

You can pretty much assume that all new pets are under stress trying to adjust to a new home. If they are healthy, they can handle a little stress fine. But coping with more stress, such as handling (if they aren't used to it), sickness, injury, improper temps or hiding places, or cagemates, will all add to the stress load of each snake. Some snakes (like some people) handle stress fine. But if they are exposed to pathogens, especially large numbers of them (which is more likely when cohabbing), the more stress they are under, the more likely they will be unable to fight off the pathogen. That could be true of even simple, ever-present microbes such as Salmonella, which is often present in low numbers in herps, and usually does not cause them a problem.

In my opinion, stress is highly under rated as a factor in weak or failure to thrive herps. Each new stress piled on top of another stress makes it more likely that the immune system will not be able to cope with whatever it may be presented with. So it is much better to try to add new or unnecessary stresses (such as cagemates, handling, changing type of substrate, etc) one at a time instead of all at once, or not at all if you can avoid it, especially in a weak animal.

Since the 2 males were already together and are still together, should I leave them together till I get them well again? I just dont want to slow their recovery by changing their enviroment and seperating them from each other since they have been together 2 yrs. I am trying not to handle them or bother them since bringing them home and cleaning their tank, and them, and checking them over. Other than feedings, we have been trying to allow them to settle in and recover slowly, on their own. Is that right? My fear if is I change too much right now, it may cause more problems. What do you think?
Now the weakest little guy, I did keep out. He was soo bad off I felt seperating him was the only way to save him. In his case I felt the risk of change outweighted the risk of leaving him with his buddies. And he is making progress. Slow, but I am confident he is gonna make it. He is in a rubbermaid container for now.

 

[7Dseven]

but you still haven't told us if you plan on listening to all the advice you've gotten here, the advice Kathy Love has given you.

"But they choose to sleep together when they have lots of room to get away from each other."

It's called competing for the best spot. I love it, just like when one dog starts dominating/humping another dog and the owner says "oh, he's just playing"!

I plan to listen to helpful, constructive advice. Not the overly negative responses. That isnt help, thats just being nasty to someone who wanted advice. Several people have offered very good advice and I plan to listen to them and am very thankful for their help.

 

[7Dseven]

Thank you

It's a public forum, so you are going to run into personality differences. Some people will sugar coat it for you, others more straightforward and tell you straight up that cohabbing is considered wrong and why. While some may seem a bit brutal it's because they care about your snakes' well being.
I do think you did the right thing taking on the snakes especially if they were abandoned and left to starve in a filthy tank. You obviously meant well to rescue them and they are in much better hands with you now than they were before. I also think you seem like an intelligent person who will continue to do the right thing,.. of course you shouldn't believe everything you hear. But once you hear it from a majority of the people who have experience keeping these animals then hey, maybe they are onto something.

Yes, I knew being a public forum that I would come across many personalitys and different opinions on how to do things. I welcome advice and shared experience. What I didnt expect was a few to be so nasty about it. I didnt have any experience with co-habbing so that was the reason behind my search for info.
Thank you for you responce. I appreciate the support and want to learn all I can. :spinner:

 

[snakewispera snr]

The thing is you posted at the end of a thread where much flaming had happened...LOL saying 'I co-hab' and 'happy' in the same sentence.
That was never a good way to start..