Dilute?

[Susan]

I thought one of the "tests" was that the dilutes always shed clear? If so would this not be the most accurate way to tell?
As far as why or what do people see in it? I believe it's an eye of the beholder thing, what is beautiful to some is not so to others. I myself feel blah about bloodred/diffused but it is one of the most popular genes out there :shrugs: OTOH some of the dilutes pictured in this thread I find quite beautiful.

I've never really used that method for hatchlings because honestly, I really don't have the time right now to unravel, clean and examine the tiny shed skin of neonate corns. Plus, I'm not 100% sure if that is actually a proven fact about the dilutes or not. There have been a few times where I've looked at some sheds from other morphs, such as a normal, and really couldn't see any pigment. That may just be a result of poor lighting and even worse eyesight, but in any case, it's not going to be a determining method for me.

 

[El Jefe]

they also appear to look similar to adult Ice Ghosts (yet not of course, just similar)?

Yep...that's what I thought one of my now suspected dilute anerys was. He was lighter than an anery but not quite an ice. I knew he wasn't a hypo A something as I have not seen ANY hypo A's in that line and the parents were not supposed to be hypo A either. Boy will this one be a headache since dilute seems to have surfaced in my ice motley line.....

Here is an ice and dilute anery shot.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

In Jeff's picture I see an Ice and a Ghost.

 

[El Jefe]

In Jeff's picture I see an Ice and a Ghost.

Yep it looks ghostish but it really shouldn't be a hypo A animal. In several breedings and dozens of eggs from the same grouping I have yet to see a hypo A pop up. I've got lava, lava motleys, ice, ice motley, anery, anery motley, normal, normal motley and a handful of these suspected dilute animals....always with the anerys but I never paid that much attention to the normals so maybe there was some dilute normals? I have some dilute anery motleys from Rob and hope to cross them to the ones I have to see what happens. Last year I attempted to breed that male dilute anery to a hypo A and it didn't work....not only that, one of his hemipene's got stuck out! This year he bred with other hemipene but I got all slugs (but the female slugged last year with a different male). There is always next year.....

 

[Pasodama]

but sunkisseds definitely are as much a pattern gene as a hypo gene....

It appears that Dilute is, also, more than only a Hypo gene.

Dilute is not limited to an affect upon melanin. It, also, appears that Dilute affects the expression of pigment (to different degrees).

Dilutes, also, do have, as Walter put it, a slight "haze" to the skin (which contributes to giving the snake a "softer" look). This "haze", or clear outer layer with the very slightest milky opacity, (not an easy thing to describe and, also, not an easy thing to photograph, but can be seen IRL) has led to some people describing Dilutes as having the appearance of a snake in perpetual shed (for the Anery based Dilutes, is my guess, since that description came about before other morph, & known, Dilutes were produced). I, personally, really dislike that description because a Dilute does not look like a snake that is, actually, in shed/blue.

But if dilute is acting as a hypo gene, why in the heck do so many people have such a hard time IDing them when compared to hypo A, or with no presence of hypo?

It should be relatively easy to pick out which hatchlings are Dilute and which are not.
Dilute Anery hatchlings stand out amidst non-Dilute hatchlings. Dilute Caramel hatchlings cannot, in any way, be confused with non-Dilute Caramel hatchlings. Dilute Classics, same thing.

Now, when there are Hypo A and Dilute hatchlings, in the same clutch, I can see where some folks may have a problem in identifying which may be Hypo A and which may be Dilute. However, I do believe that, for those with experience, this should not prove to be extraordinarily difficult (because there is a difference between the two morphs).

What I think would be hardest is to identify a hatchling that is homo for both Dilute & Hypo A from those hatchlings that are only Hypo A ... but I do not think it to be impossible.

What helps, with identification, is if there are other, non-Dilute, siblings in the clutch. However, again, with experience, identification becomes easier and, if there is no Hypo A (or other Hypo?) in the mix, identification should not pose a big problem either way.

 

[Pasodama]

As I recall Susan, your first impressions of the Dilute were "Blued Steel"?? Via the pictures I have looked at there's also a very distinct pinkness and/or blueness to the Dilutes. Accurate?

One thing to remember is that not all Dilutes are Anery based.
With that said, not even all the Anery based Dilutes are the color of "blued steel". However, from the ones that I have seen, &/or own, there does seem to be more "bluishness", to the Dilute Anery color, and pinks do seem to be brought out more in Dilutes (Like my Dilute Pastel<Ghost> Motleys .. they have a lot of pink).
"Blued steel" cannot, of course, apply to Dilute Classics, Dilute Caramels, etc.

 

[Pasodama]

I thought one of the "tests" was that the dilutes always shed clear? If so would this not be the most accurate way to tell?

It is true that Dilutes do shed skin that is completely pigment free (even my Dilute Classics shed pigment free skin). The shed skin is very distinctive as it is quite "white"/clear.
I think that this is a good "tool", for identification, but not something that I think should be used as a conclusive "test". Reason being is that Amels shed pigment free skin and Hypo "A" snakes can shed skin that is pretty much pigment free (or very nearly so).

Come to think of it, since the Dilutes' shed skin is so distinctively "white"/clear, I may have to do some comparisons, between my Dilutes and my Hypo "A" snakes, to see what differences there may be.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

That may just be a result of poor lighting and even worse eyesight, but in any case, it's not going to be a determining method for me.

I feel your pain! I never appreciated the good eyesight back when I had better than 20/20 vision. Now I'm squinting to pop hatchlings and need to put on reading glasses.
Some of these morphs like dilute and ultra, it seems you pretty much need a perfect example of the morph to easily be able to tell. I thought the clear shed would be a good way to tell but I suppose it won't be much help once you get into dilute + amel or hypo genes...
I guess a better marker is how they stand out from the clutchmates and have that blue look to them - which doesn't come across in photographs.

 

[Susan]

As I recall Susan, your first impressions of the Dilute were "Blued Steel"?? Via the pictures I have looked at there's also a very distinct pinkness and/or blueness to the Dilutes. Accurate? Also, in some of the adult pictures that have been shared they also appear to look similar to adult Ice Ghosts (yet not of course, just similar)?

Regardless of any of that, there does appear to be a significant difference that would hold up to the paper bag test. :shrugs:
D80

One thing to remember is that not all Dilutes are Anery based.
With that said, not even all the Anery based Dilutes are the color of "blued steel". However, from the ones that I have seen, &/or own, there does seem to be more "bluishness", to the Dilute Anery color, and pinks do seem to be brought out more in Dilutes (Like my Dilute Pastel<Ghost> Motleys .. they have a lot of pink).
"Blued steel" cannot, of course, apply to Dilute Classics, Dilute Caramels, etc.

I used the "blued steel" description when I first found a hatchling I knew I had never seen before. It does seem to describe the coloration of a dilute anery neonate. But yes, once they get older and the pinks and yellows come in, as well as the dilute gene combined with anything other than anery, that name does not apply. Once I figured out that what I had hatch out was the same as Rob's "blue motleys", it wasn't long after that when the term "dilute" was used as that is what the gene that causes the blue coloration in dogs is called.

And if Joe and others don't care for the gene, that's okay...they have that right. There are a couple of morphs I'm not overly fond of either. Besides, that will leave more dilutes for the rest of us!

 

[RobStevens]

How can you not like this ? Lol.These are a couple of fresh pics of the Dilutes.
Just for the record i did not name the morph.We did prove it to be a simple recessive trait.
They were originally called Blue Motley's by a few people that purchased the first ones that i had for sale.
I quess i am not that big on naming morphs lol.
Thanks Rob

 

[Drizzt80]

And if Joe and others don't care for the gene, that's okay...they have that right. There are a couple of morphs I'm not overly fond of either. Besides, that will leave more dilutes for the rest of us!

Opals would be a great comparison for me. Snows using the Lavender morph just aren't intriguing.

I think this thread has ended up containing some pretty valuable information. :shrugs:

D80

 

[Pasodama]

Posting some comparisons. These are hatchlings.
Keep in mind that ... as with all morphs, there can be some variety within the same morph... so not every hatchling will look 100% identical to these.
Sorry that the photo quality may not be the very best.
Of course, a better comparison is if they could be seen IRL, since photos don't always catch everything, but this is to just give some idea.

 

[Tula_Montage]

Wel then Joe I have to say you have a terrible eye for colour

 

[KJUN]

You have to be able to identify, recognize, AND appreciate subtle differences to see the true beauty and worth in something like the dilution gene in cornsnakes.

How can you not like this ? Lol.These are a couple of fresh pics of the Dilutes.
Just for the record i did not name the morph.We did prove it to be a simple recessive trait.
They were originally called Blue Motley's by a few people that purchased the first ones that i had for sale.
I quess i am not that big on naming morphs lol.
Thanks Rob

It'll always be a BLUE MOTLEY to me. I know, Rob, that you agreed with changing it. Dilute is a good name for the mutation itself, but those dilute anerythristic bloods will always be a BLUE BLOOD to me....and a Dilute anerythristic Motley is, and always will be, a blue motley.

It is funny, but the same clique that says we have to call "albino bloods" by the term "fire" says we shouldn't have been using the trade name "blue motley" because it isn't as descriptive as "dilute anerythristic motley." Blue motley has a ring that INTERESTS even many beginning hobbyists....and it is a fair description of most examples of this morph!

I've never owned a "dilute" dog (but I've owned some blues due to a dilution gene!), so the argument that it is a similar TYPE of mutation just goes to show we should be calling these things "blue" - like we do in canines.

 

[Pasodama]

I've never owned a "dilute" dog (but I've owned some blues due to a dilution gene!), so the argument that it is a similar TYPE of mutation just goes to show we should be calling these things "blue" - like we do in canines.

Makes me wonder what we would call the other, non Anerythristic, Dilute morphs. 'Course, then again, my Dilute Pastel (Ghost) Motleys do not look blue (So, perhaps, a name for only straight up Dilute Anerythristics?).
Not overly concerned about what they may be called but "Blue" just doesn't seem to be a good "catch all" name.:shrugs:

 

[KJUN]

Not overly concerned about what they may be called but "Blue" just doesn't seem to be a good "catch all" name.:shrugs:

I meant (in terms of the blue motleys) the dilute anerythristic motleys - not the dilute hypo anerythristic motley like yours. Who cares if they aren't ALL blue? I don't own a lavender colored lavender......or a "plasma" that is the correct color of those electrical charges......or a lava that is actually the color of lava or magma.....or a

Well, you get the point. The name has a meaning, an understanding.....and "blue motley" WAS, I sorry, IS the original name. Why change it to something 5 times longer that is less exciting to 90+% of the cornsnake buyers out there?

 

[Pasodama]

I meant (in terms of the blue motleys) the dilute anerythristic motleys - not the dilute hypo anerythristic motley like yours.

Got it.

Who cares if they aren't ALL blue? I don't own a lavender colored lavender......or a "plasma" that is the correct color of those electrical charges......or a lava that is actually the color of lava or magma.....or a

Actually, I did think of that. There, certainly, are morphs where the name is not very fitting.

The name has a meaning, an understanding.....and "blue motley" WAS, I sorry, IS the original name. Why change it to something 5 times longer that is less exciting to 90+% of the cornsnake buyers out there?

Trust me. I was not suggesting a change. Just wondering about other Dilute morphs and if there could, possibly, be any confusion (or added confusion considering what, already, exists with this, and, other morphs & their names) by naming something "Blue" when, in actuality, the snake is pink, or brown, or red, or other. However, you are referring to the Dilute Anerythristic Motleys and I have no problem/wondering with, or about, that.

 

[a_god_s]

How can you not like this ? Lol.These are a couple of fresh pics of the Dilutes.
Thanks Rob

That's the baby I want, right there!! Thank Rob for showing my dream snake!

 

[TandJ]

I can say I can finally see the difference first hand.. Pretty subtle difference if you ask me. I am not seeing the saturated pink that I expected to see, but have to wait to see some sheds first..


KJ mentioned...

I've never owned a "dilute" dog (but I've owned some blues due to a dilution gene!), so the argument that it is a similar TYPE of mutation just goes to show we should be calling these things "blue" - like we do in canines.

I have had blue ratties in the past too.. I wonder if we should call them dilute rat's now ??? *G*

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[Susan]

The pinks take awhile to come in, and not all are created equal, just like the pastel ghosts. But when they do come in...it's usually "WOW!"