Queston for hunters...

[Nova_C]

I agree Kathy, but the other side of the coin is that if a government doesn't provide a certain baseline to ensure a standard of living, then the extremely small minority who control a nation's wealth end up taking advantage of the lower classes. Slavery, serfdom, the poverty of previous eras were all the result of a government not protecting it's people from the predatory nature of humans.

Just as many people become lazy without motivation, many become victims without oversight. Regulatory practices, minimum wage, labor laws, social programs all work to ensure that everyone has at least food, clothing and shelter regardless of whether they're handicapped, unemployed or unable to make ends meet.

With the current recession, that is the result of the wealthy elite preying on the poor, throwing everyone to the wolves if they cannot find work, or afford their house, or buy food for their family does not motivate one to be better. It motivates one to desperation.

A nation of desperate people is a dangerous road.

 

[kathylove]

"...if a government doesn't provide a certain baseline ..."

And therein lies the problem, lol! How much government is too much? And how much is too little? I don't think any government has found the perfect mix so far. But I would rather err with too little, rather than risk losing our freedoms to too much government. And it isn't as easy as you would think to tell how much is the best by results. That is because good or bad results may take a very long time to show up. And meantime, the amount of government is always changing. So it is impossible to always match the cause (more, or less government oversight) to the effect (good or bad economy) in a constantly changing environment.

 

[Nova_C]

Right.

And that's why I asked the question: "What's wrong with Socialism?" Because the answer is: "The same thing that's wrong with Capitalism."

Socialist policies aren't an inherently bad thing and the animosity Americans have for it is something I've always been a little confused by.

 

[Snyderman]

A nation of desperate people is a dangerous road.

Luckily Obama has averted this. He fought very hard to extend the digital T.V. conversion deadline so that everyone without cable would have time to get a discount coupon for a convertor box. We couldn't have anyone in this country going without television -- God forbid.

Did anyone else find this amusing?

 

[Drizzt80]

Luckily Obama has averted this. He fought very hard to extend the digital T.V. conversion deadline so that everyone without cable would have time to get a discount coupon for a convertor box. We couldn't have anyone in this country going without television -- God forbid.

Did anyone else find this amusing?

:roflmao:
D80

 

[TandJ]

"...if a government doesn't provide a certain baseline ..."

And therein lies the problem, lol! How much government is too much? And how much is too little? I don't think any government has found the perfect mix so far. But I would rather err with too little, rather than risk losing our freedoms to too much government. And it isn't as easy as you would think to tell how much is the best by results. That is because good or bad results may take a very long time to show up. And meantime, the amount of government is always changing. So it is impossible to always match the cause (more, or less government oversight) to the effect (good or bad economy) in a constantly changing environment.

Well said Kathy..

I feel better getting things under my own power, rather than feeling like I am just a Government Number.. I don't want to live 1984..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[TandJ]

Luckily Obama has averted this. He fought very hard to extend the digital T.V. conversion deadline so that everyone without cable would have time to get a discount coupon for a convertor box. We couldn't have anyone in this country going without television -- God forbid.

Did anyone else find this amusing?

How could I find this amusing? *LOL* Its absolutely a necessary tool for this society.. Or at least that is very apparent to me..

Hey Brent.. You have an extra room on Rancho Dakota? I am having a hard time with our Pop Culture ..

Regards.. Tim of T and J


tag 3700

 

[Drizzt80]

Hey Brent.. You have an extra room on Rancho Dakota? I am having a hard time with our Pop Culture ..

If not, I'd do my best to try and make room for a friend in need. I'm gonna warn you though, we have a lotta Wankster's (Wanna-be Gangstas) around here and it's irritating in it's own right as they wouldn't survive a day in downtown Beverly Hills let alone Detroit or Chicago!

D80

 

[TandJ]

Why do I envision the charactors from "Malibu's Most Wanted"..? *snickers* Everyone wants to be a tough guy, but I imagine Beverly Hills might not be to thug friendly.. Unless it is the WannabeG's trying to buy some bling and their card gets declined.. Oh the shame..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[Snyderman]

Socialism is like a cafeteria. Free market is like a fine restaurant. The focus of the cafeteria is making sure there is enough food to feed everyone. The focus of the fine restaurant is on the quality and presentation of the food. Which one would you rather eat at?

If you are living in poverty, then you will gladly accept the daily special. For those of us who once were middle class, our quality of life may diminish. Of course, it is the destroying of the middle class that has lead to a socialist America( Have you seen the new News Week?). My dad retired from Ford after 40 years of work with a true pension that included medical benefits. There are no companies that offer true pensions any more. Portable pensions are a joke. How long can an average retiree afford to pay $800.00 a month for health insurance. National health care is coming.

Back to GUNS. Firearms represent FREEDOM and self reliance. When the constitution was written, the american long rifle was a cutting edge weapon. It was important that the citizenry be armed to protect themselves, their neighbors, and their country. We would be a lot safer if our neighbors were still armed and trained. The rifle and later the Colt provided for self reliance in the defense of your person and family. Today we rely on "professionals" for protection. I trust my neighbors more. If you had a rifle, you could hunt. Game has always bean bountiful in this country. Nova C, you probably know this already since your location is squirrel country, but people still hunt and eat squirrel to this very day. Self sufficient from hunger.

It is about the audacity of TRUST. How many nations trust their populace to be armed? Very few do. With much choice and much freedom comes much risk. You can make bad choices and really screw up your life. Today, people prefer not to have pay the price for bad choices and want the government to help them recover from their bad choices. The government doesn't trust us to make good choices, so they continue to add regulations dictating how we must live our lives. No smoking. No saturated fat. Wear your seat belt. All good things -- But God forgive me if I wouldn't rather have liberty. I would rather have the freedom to choose every aspect of my life, even if it meant suffering from the occasional bad choice. Guns are a weapon. Can I trust you with a gun. Can you trust me with a gun. It's probably safer to trust the government to protect us and provide for us.

 

[Nova_C]

I agree with almost all of that post, except that Guns represent freedom.

To me, guns are a tool and don't represent anything. They simply are. I might be moving across country and I'll be leaving all my guns behind if I do - will I be less free if I forsake my rifles? If so, why?

Socialism is like a cafeteria. Free market is like a fine restaurant.

That's a good analogy, actually. Especially with all the fine restaurants that overcharge, pay their workers less than minimum wage and are just as likely to accidentally (or negligently) poison their customers as any other restaurant.

I used to work for a company that had an amazing cafeteria. Very high class. You still bought the food, but it was at cost and the company covered the labor costs. Some of the best lunches I've ever had.

Why on earth would a company in a truly capitalistic society offer pensions? Capitalism gives labor value and a worker traders that labor for a wage from an employer. Once the labor is no longer provided, why would a company continue to pay the worker?

Of course, the pension could be part of the traded value, which is fine, but not offering them has nothing to do with a government becoming more socialist.

I would rather have the freedom to choose every aspect of my life, even if it meant suffering from the occasional bad choice.

I actually agree with this too, with the caveat that sometimes when we suffer for our own bad choices, we make others suffer with us. I believe people should have the freedom to choose their own destiny, but unfortunately, many will pursue their destiny by victimizing others.

The danger is one I see in the gun control debate: Gun laws do little to reduce violent crime, but people who fear guns see them as the tools used to commit violent crime. The government responds to the democratic will of the people and moves to restrict or ban guns. You can't have it both ways. Either a government is responsible to its people or it is not. A pure democracy will violate the rights of the minority eventually. The government must prevent that abuse of majority power.

When it comes down to it, we can't have FREEDOM as an ideal. Only bits and pieces of it. We must choose our freedoms and sacrifice other freedoms or we have no freedom at all.

 

[Snyderman]

I thought I better add a quick note to say that I am not trying to offend you Nova C or call you squirrelly. I was just making a joke regarding your odd location.

Nova_C
I was the moon once.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Everyone look at what Squirrel is doing!
Age: 29
Posts: 534

 

[Nova_C]

I know, Snyder. No offense taken.

It's a reference to my favorite comic, Gunnerkrigg Court. I'm also an active member on another forum, the one for the webcomic Penny Arcade. On that forum, many, if not most of the forumers use the location field as an extension of the title field. So both my title and location are quotes from the Coyote character (My avatar) in the comic Gunnerkrigg Court.

 

[KJUN]

That's a good analogy, actually. Especially with all the fine restaurants that overcharge, pay their workers less than minimum wage and are just as likely to accidentally (or negligently) poison their customers as any other restaurant.

LOL. Try again, but this time make your statements match the facts. I'll pay for food when the owners know I won't come back if it tastes bad LONG before I eat somewhere on the .gov DOLE where the person can't be fired pretty much no matter WHAT they do. Why don't you eat all your meals at a "soup kitchen." Let socialists get their way, and all you WILL have are soup kitchens......and vodka that makes people go blind.
KJ

 

[El Jefe]

Luckily Obama has averted this. He fought very hard to extend the digital T.V. conversion deadline so that everyone without cable would have time to get a discount coupon for a convertor box. We couldn't have anyone in this country going without television -- God forbid.

Did anyone else find this amusing?

Me, me, me.....

 

[KJUN]

Me, me, me.....

...or had more thoughts about Big Brother, TV monitorring, mental programming, etc.....Shrug?

 

[JNugent]

When it comes down to it, we can't have FREEDOM as an ideal. Only bits and pieces of it. We must choose our freedoms and sacrifice other freedoms or we have no freedom at all.

Why must we choose? Correct me if my history is bad, but isn't the US a nation founded on the very ideal of "freedom" to escape the tyranny of the crown and England? I always thought so. Now I agree, there has to be some limits and keep things within reason, but to repeal the original ideals and articles of the constitution that made our nation what it is? Some amendments have been good, mostly dealing with human rights and equality. I have no issue with that. But I am not willing to give up my guns and inherent right to freedom. To me they are the same. I've lived in Germany in a country that has very strict gun laws where you must keep all your weapons at a "schutzenclub". But guess what? Guns are still out there.. just not in the homes of law abiding, contributing members of society. So the criminals have them, and use them to prey upon the populace. They have no choice but to give in to the criminals, cower in fear, call the polizei and hope for the best in a terrible situation where their family and freedom is threatened. Not this guy.. If I feel my family or personal sense of security is threatened, I'm not gonna settle for calling up the authorities and hoping nothing bad happens to us. I *guarantee* I'm not gonna get the short end of the stick on that deal, nor will anyone I'm responsible for protecting and providing for. Point blank. My point being, you can't change your mind 233 some odd years later about what freedom means now or pick and choose what you get or don't get. Who makes that call? If our system is so bad, why do we have so many people around the world working with all they have to get to the US to escape whatever socialist/monarchy/communist society or whatever they live in to get here?

 

[Drizzt80]

Steel slingshot balls? Are they still readily available?!

I'm making a list of what I need to stock up on.
D80

 

[mike17l]

Stock up while you can comrade.

 

[tyflier]

It's a well known fact that gun control policy does absolutely nothing to curb criminal gun ownership. Criminals do not use legal means to acquire their weaponsy, so gun control cannot stop them from acquiring anything they have the cash to purchase. And unfortunately, there are many very unscrupulous gun dealers in this country.

Anyone care to take a guess as to how many guns "go missing" every year in America? Anyone have any idea how many existing and registered serial numbers never reach the shops they were intended for?

As a shop keeper...you get a supply of handguns in the shop. Now...you can log and register every weapon as you count it into your stock, hold them on the shelves, pay your yearly floor tax on them, and eventually sell them.

OR...you can "lose a couple"...somewhere between shipping and recieving, a couple of the serial numbers come up missing...and you, as a shop keeper, sell them to someone unscrupulous for twice their market worth...no lines, no waiting.

Gun control DOES slow this process down. It also stops people with mental instabilities or criminal pasts from acquiring them legally. These are both GOOD controls to have in place. And if someone needs to wait 30 days(or whatever it is) to acquire a weapon legally...so be it. Your rights are not infringed upon by regulations, unless their something in your past that prevents you from owning weapons. If that is thecase...you no longer have a "Right to Bear Arms"...you're a criminal...you lose that right.

The p[roblem is that...law abiding gun owners hear "gun control", and they automatically assume that all new regulations will be dewsigned to prevent them from having weapons. It ain't gonna happen. This country is founded on a love of individual freedoms, and a pursuit of outdoor adventure. We love our guns.

Gun control doesn't prevent law abiding citizens from owning and sohoting legal weapons in legal locations under legal permissions. It prevents people from acquiring weapons that they should not have access to. Period. A mandatory waiting period is not forbidding ownership...