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RIP Clementine, my beautiful boa lassie. (Updated PM results)

I think thats so admirable and brave of you elle!

Your idea on educating the public on IBD in wonderful. Perhaps in the future you could take it a step further and make a whole Clementines awareness foundation or something. I do think something positive will come out of all of this, and perhaps help fuel more research on a possible cure.
 
That's all I can do. Why hide it? I am sure there are many hundreds of thousands of snakes in captivity infected. But of course with it being a nasty virus which can harbour for years who the heck knows where it will pop up next. Unfortunately some people refuse to acknowledge how rife it probably is and that it is a very real threat to captive bred collections. I just don't want this to happen to anyone else.... And it is something you think ack it's not going to happen to me. Thats what I always thought...

I am actually going to ask the vet for the slides which show the inclusions so I can scan them into my computer and show others aswell...
 
Does this disease spread through a population without mites? Assuming that somebody has sensible husbandry?
 
tom e said:
Does this disease spread through a population without mites? Assuming that somebody has sensible husbandry?
Click to expand...

"As this has been identified as a viral entity, it may spread like a virus, through contact between infectious organisms (such as housing an infected snake with a previously healthy one) or through airborne aerosolized secretions, or by the keeper passing secretions from one snake or enclosure to another during the course of handling or cleaning (when strict quarantine and cleaning procedures are not followed)."
 
Scary scary stuff. I suppose I would never know than if any of my snakes have brought it over.. I have no boas or pythons, no mites. But if the colubrids would never show it, many of us could be producing time bombs for those who keep boas.. I guess there's not much one can do. Maybe get a boa as a canary in the coal mine?
 
This is what I will be doing with 5 of my boas on Monday the 27th. Regardless of the cost... I have had one very kind herper offer me quite a bit towards vet bills which will enable me to get the organ biopsies done instead of just blood tests and smears as inclusions found in the blood don't always mean IBD and no inclusions found in the blood are not conclusive enough to say that snake does not have IBD.

"The blood smears were stained with May-Grünewald-Giemsa, and the tissue samples were after preparation stained with hematoxylin and eosin. They were then examined with light microscopy for intracytoplasmic eosinophilic inclusion bodies in hepatocytes or blood cells. Typical IBD-inclusions were found in liver biopsies from four of the snakes, but no inclusions were found in blood smears from the same animals. Sampling by ultrasoundguided needle biopsy resulted in representative samples. In conclusion, a blood smear is not a reliable diagnostic alternative to identify IBD-positive snakes compared to liver biopsies, as liver biopsy by celiotomy or needle biopsy is a more sensitive method. Ultrasound guided needle biopsy is a less invasive technique, but has less control of procedure complications."
 
tom e said:
Maybe get a boa as a canary in the coal mine?
Click to expand...

Ball pythons make better canaries. Seriously.
One of the BP & Boa breeders in Colorado lost her entire collection to IBD. She brought in one boa that had it but wasn't showing symptoms, and her BP's started dropping like flies.
In her experience (not saying this is general across the board), she said within the first month of a snake dying of IBD, your BP's will be dead. They don't "carry" the disease like most boas can do.
 
Robbie, this is because pythons are not really asymptomatic carriers therefore once they contract the disease tend not to harbor it. Instead they succumb to the virus very very quickly however their symptoms are slightly milder than in boas.

Clementine lasted 2 weeks. But in those few weeks she showed some of the more extreme symptoms such as star gazing, cork screwing her neck, lethargy, major dehydration and the inability to shed, dilated pupils (sometimes one being more dilated than the other), severly swollen kidneys, inability to right herself when fliped onto her back, refusal of food and strangest of all her teeth started falling out. I found at least 3 and one came out whilst I was giving her medication via a stomach tube. She obviously had serious calcium deficiency. I was at the vet 3 times with her and each time they told me to nurse her at home with common medications such as critical care, baytril and calcium suppliments. THEN I decided enough was enough and took her straight to one of the best herp vets in the country. One who has had plenty of experience diagnosing IBD and he knew straight away when I showed him to her that it was a very real possibility, just as I had suspected but never wanted to believe.

I have 3 pythons. 2 spotties and one green tree python. None of these three snakes ever had mites therefore I am confident that they could not have contracted the disease from her via mite hosts. And the spotted pythons are still in quarantine anyway along with Minerva who also did not contract mites. However she will be going to the vet on Monday along with Blythe, Bluemoon Wolfboy, Berlingo and Beaux for tests.
 
Elle,
First off- you did the right thing. So I congratulate you on doing what's right... something which is becoming all the more rare nowdays. Especially when money is involved.

I think however that you are a tad quick with abandoning all hope- I think you can still breed, and still build a new population of healthy snakes. Even if it means starting a new collection at a different place(different room, building, whichever).

You have a choice, and do not rob yourself of it. Do not allow yourself to become victim of circumstances... it will probably harm you to think in such a way.

I am really sorry... it's an ordeal I would rather than go through... and already I can tell you that I am reconsidering buying some snakes I thought of getting.

I hope your next experiences will be more positive.
 
Kokopelli (sorry I can't remember your real name), what I mean is I would not dare to breed ANY of my snakes that are currently in my collection. I can't take that risk of passing IBD onto anybody else. It may be the case not a single one of my other snakes are infected but I personally am not willing to take that risk. If and when all my current snakes are gone (either wiped out by the virus, euthanised, died of old age etc) then I will wait a while before I even think of building up any sort of collection again. Like I said I am not particuarly bothered about breeding. I would have loved to. I have some rather unusual and rare snakes, of which I have pairs and even breeding groups. But unlike breeders, I bought my snakes because I wanted them for what they were and not what they could produce. Sure, producing captive bred candoia would have been awesome. Such an achievement. But that will have to wait for another generation of snakes.

My boyfriend has suggested that If I saw any snakes I desperatley wanted I could keep them as his. But I don't want to rely on other people to keep my snakes (even though I stay at his more often than not). I don't want to take on new animals when I am unsure of the future of my current ones. I hold a great deal of loyalty to my pets.

My choice is one I have made to protect other people, not myself. I don't care if people don't want to know I exist because I have IBD in my collection. I can handle all the amount of slandering and abuse I will inevitably get when I reveal my predicament on a UK forum. It's something that needs to be done though. These kinds of infectious diseases cannot be hidden for people to pretend they don't exist.
 
Tula_Montage said:
I can handle all the amount of slandering and abuse I will inevitably get when I reveal my predicament on a UK forum. .
Click to expand...
Tell me when you are planning on doing it and I'll help give you cover.....
This isn't your fault...
How you handle it is though....:noevil:
Give me a nod if you want back up, though I expect sparkle and Ed will jump in to help you out as well...
 
Like I said Mike, I can handle this on my own. I don't need back up. I don't personally have IBD, one of my snakes conclusively had and all my others potentially do. I'm not the illness ;)

I am not looking for sympathy or help or backup, I just need people to be aware that IBD is a very real threat but it can be prevented if the correct precautions are taken such as the importance of post mortem and quarantine! And the importance of holding your hands up and saying yeah, I have a problem. These are the facts. If it makes people more aware and careful then that's all I can hope for.

The main point to remember though is that no amount of quarantine can prevent IBD. No boid keeper on this planet can safely say they DO NOT have IBD in their collection because of the amount of time it can harbor for. Some boas can live their entire life carrying the disease and never show symptoms.
 
I truly don't think that your name would be slandered by revealing this disease in your snakes. Personally I commend you for coming out and helping others learn more about this disease by giving first hand information. I would find it far easier to slander the name of someone who attempted to cover up the fact they had the disease in their collection and continued to put other people's animals at risk. Even though I am not on that side of the pond, I applaud you and your upstanding ethics. Perhaps more than one person can learn more about this horrible disease and maybe more research will be done in the future to find a cure.
 
Elle, I just got through reading the last 2/3 of this thread (some parts re-read), and I am virtually speechless. You know I'm new to keeping corn snake morphs, although I've been keeping snakes since the 1970's.
You are taking this better than I might,...I would hate to be tested like this.

From only as much as you've been kind enough to allow me to get to know you, and the deeper unseen INFP 'you', over the last 10 months, you are taking this hurdle in stride in a manner consistent with all that I would expect from you. With dignity, grace, a stiff upper lip, and a pro-active approach, such that this does not happen to others.
It brings tears to my eyes, the combination of knowing the depth of your calamity, and seeing the elegance, nobility, and propriety with which you have chosen to handle this unfortunate circumstance.
For this I love you, my dear. I do so wish the miles and sea did not separate us so,...I'd do anything I could to help.

This in no way brings you down in my eyes. On the contrary, it lifts you up.
 
Aww Elle I am soo sorry :( I was really hoping the results would be negative.. Its sad to see this happen to someone who loves their snakes as much as you do :( You are being extremely responsible about this and that is a great thing. So many people would just lie and go on.. But Elle you are a beautiful person and it kills me to see you going through this.. I hope whoever is the cause behind this gets found out. I am so sorry girl :(
((HUGS)) Even though I know they don't help much..
 
Are you worried this will be linked to your previous problems with Windsor on the UK forums? With no conclusive answer to the viral panel from the vet who PM'd Windsor it could be possible that IBD was a factor from then?
 
diamondlil said:
Are you worried this will be linked to your previous problems with Windsor on the UK forums? With no conclusive answer to the viral panel from the vet who PM'd Windsor it could be possible that IBD was a factor from then?
Click to expand...

Not worried at all Janine. This is cold hard facts... Clementine died of IBD.

And it was conclusive then that Windsor did not have IBD or Paramyxo as written in his vet reports and from the personal opinion reports I got the vet and the pathologist to write.

But as with that palava, I am sure there will be individuals who think I am crying wolf depiste having clear and conclusive evidence. People don't want to know about these diseases so close to home... ESPECIALLY not breeders.
 
Elle (((Hugs))) I am so sorry you are going through all of this. Your strength inspires me though. You will be in my thoughts dear friend.
 
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