MD Native Reptile permits.... grrr....

[Hypancistrus]

Okay... now y'all know very well that Tara and I are active supporters of the Reptile community and USARK and responsible reptile keeping. We have only bred our cresties at this point (one baby hatched TODAY! Woot!) but have plans to breed two pairs of corns this spring to test out some genetics/ hets. We went looking for state laws pertaining to reptiles, particularly corns. The county does not regulate reptiles, however, the state has what is called a "Native Reptile" permit.

We asked the DNR rep about it today at MARS. It's a form we fill out and mail in with $25 on the 1st of January ($25 per year... not TOO bad) that gives us permission to breed "A list" reptiles, which corns are a part of. We could KEEP as many non-native (i.e. anery, amel, snow, etc) corns as we want so long as we are not breeding them. But breeding requires the $25 permit.

I asked the guy if the state needed to inspect our facilities in order to issue the permit. He said no, but that holding the permit meant that, at any time, the Natural Resource Police could do an unannounced inspection on our facility (i.e. our HOME) in order to check to see that we had only the species we were permitted for (corns and other A-list reptiles, nothing from B or C list; non-natives do not count for permitting).

Tara took this in stride, but this information bothers me. Permit me to ramble for a moment....

I am all for permitting.... and I want to do the right thing in order to promote responsible reptile keeping. It does worry me, though, that having this permit means that a police officer (Maryland NRP's are full police officers) can enter our home without a warrant any time that they desire. Tara and I are not into illegal activities like drugs; our only vice is our snakes and other pets. I just don't like the idea of police having this right... it seems fundamentally wrong to me. It wouldn't even bother me if the inspections were announced... but they just show up and knock and we have to let them in, any time....

The second thing that bothers me is the fact that it is a natural resource POLICE OFFICER and not a wildlife biologist who is doing the inspection... what do they know about identifying different species? We just purchased a black rat snake today, which is an A list species, for our educational program. Would a police officer be knowlegeable enough to tell a black rat snake from an MBK or a Mex mex? Will they be able to tell the difference between our striped mud turtle (Florida native) and the native stinkpots?? I really am concerned about this....

If they think we have something we shouldn't, will they confiscate them? What will happen to them? Tara's mother told me a story this morning about a local Virginia breeder whose home was raided, and the authorities took several venomous and non-venomous snakes and a caiman away.... the venomous snakes were euthanized immediately because "the state doesn't have housing for such animals." What if that seizure was illegal, and the private owner was found to be in the right? They have no recourse for getting back their animals because they're dead... and this is in Virginia, a red state with much, much less strict laws than Maryland, and a significant inclination to protect personal freedoms. Maryland is not so inclined....

Even if they did not euthanize a snake or reptile that they took from us... the local places are not capable of caring for reptiles! So there is a good chance that the animals would die before we could ever resolve the issue. I find myself wondering which animal I would see sacrificed because of incompetence on the part of local authorities....

There is a lot about this permit process that quite frankly scares the piss out of me. I don't like it at all, and yet I know we have to do it if we want to breed. Tara and I have no plans to move OUT of MD... PA is not an option because of our pet hedgehog, Annabelle, and Virginia is far too anti-gay for us to build a life there, especially if we ever decide to adopt human children. Since this is a MD state law, no matter where we go it applies... so waiting to breed won't help us.

I am just wondering what everyone else thinks about this... Tara says I am overreacting and that there is a better than good chance that they just SAY they could inspect us and due to a severe lack of personal and much more important issues, they probably never will. I can see that reasoning but I am still worried.

Thoughts??

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I really don't like the wording in that... that's just scary. Good luck with everything!

 

[Nanci]

You should read The Lizard King. (About reptile smuggling). That would make me nervous, too, although I believe they would never exercise that option. I can't remember how the Florida permit is worded.

 

[starsevol]

This really does sound scary....
seems to me there are 3 ways you can handle this...

First way is to ignore the law, and risk getting caught, and I know you won't do that. You are good people.

Second way is to pay for the permit, and hope for the best.....

Third way is to get the permit, and ask alot of questions, make yourself accessible. Find out who handles cases like that in your state and get to know them. Keep reciepts from breeders on everything you have and be very upfront with the authorites. Give them all they want to know, and then some. Let them know beyond any doubt that you are not trying to get away with anything. Educate THEM, be pleasent and glad to see them, go to them before they go to you. If they do go to you, make them coffee. Teach them the difference between a black rat, a black king and an mbk. Use scientific names so you have to look of authority. You will either make new friends, or bore them so much that they leave you alone!!

 

[danielle]

I didn't see you guys and I looked I have asked about the permit myself though I have no breeding plans for sure. I figure they can come unannounced, but they can't come in without a warrant or your permission If you aren't keeping anything illegal and providing proper care I figure who cares and even though they retain the right to come in how often do you think they actually do? If there were complaints maybe, but otherwise I doubt they would.

 

[Nanci]

This is the Florida law. You need a permit to sell or transfer any reptile. Once you have the permit, you agree to this:

(4) Permits issued pursuant to this section and (4) Permits issued pursuant to this section and places where wildlife is kept or held in captivity shall be subject to inspection by officers of the commission at all times. The commission shall have the power to release or confiscate any specimens of any wildlife, specifically birds, mammals, amphibians, or reptiles, whether indigenous to the state or not, when it is found that conditions under which they are being confined are unsanitary, or unsafe to the public in any manner, or that the species of wildlife are being maltreated, mistreated, or neglected or kept in any manner contrary to the provisions of chapter 828, any such permit to the contrary notwithstanding. Before any such wildlife is confiscated or released under the authority of this section, the owner thereof shall have been advised in writing of the existence of such unsatisfactory conditions; the owner shall have been given 30 days in which to correct such conditions; the owner shall have failed to correct such conditions; the owner shall have had an opportunity for a proceeding pursuant to chapter 120; and the commission shall have ordered such confiscation or release after careful consideration of all evidence in the particular case in question. The final order of the commission shall constitute final agency action.

(5) In instances where wildlife is seized or taken into custody by the commission, said owner or possessor of such wildlife shall be responsible for payment of all expenses relative to the capture, transport, boarding, veterinary care, or other costs associated with or incurred due to seizure or custody of wildlife. Such expenses shall be paid by said owner or possessor upon any conviction or finding of guilt of a criminal or noncriminal violation, regardless of adjudication or plea entered, of any provision of chapter 828 or this chapter, or rule of the commission or if such violation is disposed of under s. 921.187. Failure to pay such expense may be grounds for revocation or denial of permits to such individual to possess wildlife.

************************

So, they clearly list the caging requirements. Then, although they can inspect at any time, they can't do anything until 30 days after they have notified you in writing of what you need to correct.

Maybe if you dig into your state's regulations more, you can find out at least what the process is after they inspect your facility and find something.

This little gem "places where wildlife is kept or held in captivity shall be subject to inspection by officers of the commission at all times" makes me wonder if they might not be able to inspect one's facility regardless of whether one is a permit holder or not!

Interesting.

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

I had to get an Individual Hobby permit to keep my turtles, snakes, geckos and bearded dragon for $10 and it states the DEP can come and inspect my home at anytime which they most likely won't unless I do something wrong and they find out.

It also says on my permit that the public may not come into contact with them, but I do a few educational events every year and take my animals if they find out what are they going to do? Are the going to take my permit, fine me, take my animals or all three? To get a breeding or educational permit it is $100 which is okay but then they will really have to come and inspect and I don't want them in my house. I HATE our Fish and Game because of past events, they know nothing about reptiles or fish and the last thing I want is a person who knows nothing in my house judging me on my animals. I'm not against it because my animals are being care for wrong, I'm against it because I'm being judged by someone who knows nothing about them and I fear for their lives. What will happen to them if they decide to take them for some reason, that would break my heart.

I don't think your overreacting, if you have someone inspecting your animals that doesn't know anything about them you have every right to worry.

 

[starsevol]

I had to get an Individual Hobby permit to keep my turtles, snakes, geckos and bearded dragon for $10 and it states the DEP can come and inspect my home at anytime which they most likely won't unless I do something wrong and they find out.

It also says on my permit that the public may not come into contact with them, but I do a few educational events every year and take my animals if they find out what are they going to do? Are the going to take my permit, fine me, take my animals or all three? To get a breeding or educational permit it is $100 which is okay but then they will really have to come and inspect and I don't want them in my house. I HATE our Fish and Game because of past events, they know nothing about reptiles or fish and the last thing I want is a person who knows nothing in my house judging me on my animals. I'm not against it because my animals are being care for wrong, I'm against it because I'm being judged by someone who knows nothing about them and I fear for their lives. What will happen to them if they decide to take them for some reason, that would break my heart.

I don't think your overreacting, if you have someone inspecting your animals that doesn't know anything about them you have every right to worry.

See my view is this...someone inspecting my animals without knowing anything about them would scare the hell out of me too...But if you call some of the shots, invite them over or even bring one or 2 animals to them before they come unannounced, and use that opportunity to educate THEM, before they have a reason to suspect you of doing anything wrong, it may go easier.

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

See my view is this...someone inspecting my animals without knowing anything about them would scare the hell out of me too...But if you call some of the shots, invite them over or even bring one or 2 animals to them before they come unannounced, and use that opportunity to educate THEM, before they have a reason to suspect you of doing anything wrong, it may go easier.

That is true, I don't think they'll be inspecting me until I start breeding but that is still a few years away by then I might have my Biology degree and maybe I'll be working there and I can teach them.

 

[Hypancistrus]

Well at least I know I'm not completely cracked up...

I really have no issue with an inspection, so long as it is done by a neutral wildlife biologist without a chip on their shoulder regarding pet reptiles. I was in the Fish & Wildlife program at VT... 7/10 of the wildlife majors were moderate-heavily embroiled in animal rights, on the PETA level. We fisheries majors used to get into fights with them all the time... so even wildlife "professionals" can cause problems.

*sigh*

 

[starsevol]

That is true, I don't think they'll be inspecting me until I start breeding but that is still a few years away by then I might have my Biology degree and maybe I'll be working there and I can teach them.

I think in a situation like this, being proactive might help you alot. Let them see that you have no intention of breaking the law, and being so friendly and informative and teaching them things that they don't know...they may find it harder to go against you.

 

[cornspot]

I've been "inspected" twice. It's not too big a deal, & they didn't really do much of an inspection as far as looking at the animals. I got warnings both times regarding record keeping (once for not having receipts for all my animals & once for not keeping records of who I sold to). I suspect I got inspected b/c I wholesaled to a local pet store, but maybe they would have stopped by anyway.

I have sales records on my computer & one guy thought that was OK but the other didn't . So...I bought a sales book from Office Depot & have the folks fill that out with name & address & give them a copy making sure it says captive bred corn ( I don't put the scientific name on but it was suggested that I do as was listing the captive bred thing) and also put on the snake's id number & its sex & genotype.

 

[whippet]

I've been "inspected" twice. It's not too big a deal, & they didn't really do much of an inspection as far as looking at the animals. I got warnings both times regarding record keeping (once for not having receipts for all my animals & once for not keeping records of who I sold to). I suspect I got inspected b/c I wholesaled to a local pet store, but maybe they would have stopped by anyway.

I have sales records on my computer & one guy thought that was OK but the other didn't . So...I bought a sales book from Office Depot & have the folks fill that out with name & address & give them a copy making sure it says captive bred corn ( I don't put the scientific name on but it was suggested that I do as was listing the captive bred thing) and also put on the snake's id number & its sex & genotype.

Hey. THanks so much for responding. If I may ask, how many corns do you own and breed?

 

[cornspot]

I always have to count when I get asked this, but I have around 40 adults/subadults plus 3 black rats & 4 cali kings.

I started in 2005 when one of the adults I purchased to breed in 06 turned out to be gravid (& not conditioned to double clutch, so I lost her)

I had five clutches this year (in late aug-early sept) totaling about 60 hatchlings, but they aren't all feeding yet. I mostly have low-end stuff with mid-range stuff coming in 2010 & 2011.

If you are at the show tomorrow, maybe I will see you there! I'll probably have some sort of Dalmatian shirt on & arrive 11 ish

 

[Nanci]

I just read this sentence in a gun magazine article talking about ATF asking people "May we see your guns?" Maybe it pertains to you. "Most importantly, there are only a few relatively rare exceptions to the general Fourth Ammendment requirement that law enforcement officials need a warrant to enter a home without the resident's consent."