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Kyle's KINGS

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ForkedTung said:
So when I breed her with the male "TEXAS" I got from Bill Gillingham,www.snakemuseum.com, I could still label the offspring as generic Greybands.
ps) I don't have a provenence for her, she was a CL buy and seller lost orig. owners info.
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That depends on you.

Personally, I wouldn't call any offspring from her "alterna", because you can't be certain, either way. Without that breeder's verification, I would have to agree that she looks odd enough to be questionable. Since you don't know...you can't say. But that's just me.

I would never be so bold as to say that she is absolutely a hybrid beacuse frankly, there is no way to know that visually. It's a guess, at best, and an opinion. An informed opinion it may well be...but still just a guess. I would also never be so bold as to say "there is no way she's a hybrid", because she is an odd-looking snake.

Your best bet is to simply label offspring as "alterna hybrids". This leaves no implications of purity for the buyer, and protects your integrity...
 
mike17l said:
Personally I would get rid of her, there is no way that she is a pure alterna. But If I did breed her, I would sell the babies as hybrids. With what? not sure, but I would not sell the babies as pure alterna.
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Really? You know the breeder? Know the parents? You know the lineage well enough to claim with certainty that this snake absolutely cannot be pure?

That's impossible to tell from a photograph...especially a blurry photo. It's an opinion you're welcome to, but the reality is...there IS a way, it IS possible, and stranger things HAVE happened.

That's a lot like people screaming "hybrid" every time a new recessive trait is discovered. It's not only incredibly unfair...it's incredibly insulting...

I agree that the babies should NOT be sold as "pure". But claiming that it is impossible for her to be pure is just arrogant and ludicrous...and simply wrong.
 
Your best bet is to simply label offspring as "alterna hybrids". This leaves no implications of purity for the buyer, and protects your integrity...
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good idea! That's what I'll do.

for me hybrid isn't a dirty word.
 
ForkedTung said:
good idea! That's what I'll do.

for me hybrid isn't a dirty word.
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Me either. I think some of the hybrids being produced these days aer simply incredible animals. Gorgeous, to be honest.

Whatever your girl is, she sure is purty. Good Luck with her!
 
tyflier said:
Me either. I think some of the hybrids being produced these days aer simply incredible animals. Gorgeous, to be honest.

Whatever your girl is, she sure is purty. Good Luck with her!
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Some hybrids look really cool, some pollute pure populations, this one would be the latter, especially if in the hands of someone who does not know that it is a hybrid.
 
mike17l said:
Some hybrids look really cool, some pollute pure populations, this one would be the latter, especially if in the hands of someone who does not know that it is a hybrid.
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Regardless if someone knows it is a hyrbid or not though - they could still turn around and say the offspring were pure. You know I have a male alterna x ruthveni. All the offspring from that male that I have sold - I have advised the buyers that he is not pure alterna. What they choose to do with the information is up to them - I have no control over that what-so-ever.

Yes, I have continued to breed him because the ruthveni was albino and I would love to see what those offspring would look like. I do my part by advising anyone I sell to, but not everyone out there is as scrupulous as you or I.

However, I did find your comment to Kyle that you would "get rid of her" just because she may not be pure alterna extremely rude and condescending. Who cares if she isn't pure alterna? If Kyle at least knows that now and can make his decisions and judgments accordingly - if he still likes her and wants to breed her - then that is his choice. Not everyone has to be a "purist".
 
mike17l said:
Some hybrids look really cool, some pollute pure populations, this one would be the latter, especially if in the hands of someone who does not know that it is a hybrid.
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Ooops, sorry, Mike. I forgot you made the rules by which we all must live. Didn't mean to step on your toes. I only meant to offer reasonable and accurate advice, not to shove my personal opinions down everyone else's throat in an effort to somehow sound smarter or more intelligent than everyone else.

My bad...
 
ArpeggioAngel said:
However, I did find your comment to Kyle that you would "get rid of her" just because she may not be pure alterna extremely rude and condescending. Who cares if she isn't pure alterna? If Kyle at least knows that now and can make his decisions and judgments accordingly - if he still likes her and wants to breed her - then that is his choice. Not everyone has to be a "purist".
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mike17l said:
Personally I would get rid of her, there is no way that she is a pure alterna. But If I did breed her, I would sell the babies as hybrids. With what? not sure, but I would not sell the babies as pure alterna.
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I said "I would get rid of her". I did not tell him to. I also said that "if I did breed her, I would sell the babies as hybrids." How is that rude or condescending in any way?
 
mike17l said:
I said "I would get rid of her". I did not tell him to. I also said that "if I did breed her, I would sell the babies as hybrids." How is that rude or condescending in any way?
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Well, for starters, by insisting that your opinion is the only accurate one, and thereby the only one he should listen to. Other than demanding that everyone accept your assessment that it is, without any doubt, a hybrid...nothing at all...

Of course...there IS doubt, and your opinion is nothing more than that...an opinion, not a fact...but we'll ignore that...or at least you will...:bang:
 
tyflier said:
Ooops, sorry, Mike. I forgot you made the rules by which we all must live. Didn't mean to step on your toes. I only meant to offer reasonable and accurate advice, not to shove my personal opinions down everyone else's throat in an effort to somehow sound smarter or more intelligent than everyone else.

My bad...
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Nah I dont make the rules, I just know that Arizona is a hybrid alterna thats all. And again, like I already said, if they are accurately represented then great.
 
tyflier said:
Well, for starters, by insisting that your opinion is the only accurate one, and thereby the only one he should listen to. Other than demanding that everyone accept your assessment that it is, without any doubt, a hybrid...nothing at all...

Of course...there IS doubt, and your opinion is nothing more than that...an opinion, not a fact...but we'll ignore that...or at least you will...:bang:
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Just so there is no mistake, the boldface isn't a threat or an insult...it's sarcasm...
 
mike17l said:
Nah I dont make the rules, I just know that Arizona is a hybrid alterna thats all. And again, like I already said, if they are accurately represented then great.
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OK...again...HOW do you "know"?

You CAN'T know, unless YOU bred, or you KNOW who bred her. That is the ONLY way you can "know" that she is a hybrid.

Visual indicators are just that...indicators. They are NOT genetic test results. They are NOT 100% infallible. They are NOT facts. They are visual cues that make one think, "Hmm...something seems off." They help one to form an opinion, not establish a fact.

I think I'm beginning to see a trend...
 
mike17l said:
I said "I would get rid of her". I did not tell him to. I also said that "if I did breed her, I would sell the babies as hybrids." How is that rude or condescending in any way?
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Because it insinuates that you know better than anyone else and if you would get rid of her, then anyone else with a hybrid should too. And as Chris pointed out, unless you know the breeder of that snake and the lineage of the parents - there is no feasible way that you can know for 100% certainty that she is indeed a hybrid. May be smarter to label her that way for CYA, but it is still possible, even if not plausible, that she is actually pure alterna. I have seen reputable breeders with alterna very similiar to that so I don't know how you can possibly say that there is NO way she could be pure alterna.
 
ArpeggioAngel said:
Because it insinuates that you know better than anyone else and if you would get rid of her, then anyone else with a hybrid should too. And as Chris pointed out, unless you know the breeder of that snake and the lineage of the parents - there is no feasible way that you can know for 100% certainty that she is indeed a hybrid. May be smarter to label her that way for CYA, but it is still possible, even if not plausible, that she is actually pure alterna. I have seen reputable breeders with alterna very similiar to that so I don't know how you can possibly say that there is NO way she could be pure alterna.
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Hehe...I HAVE pure alterna similar to that. And so does a very good friend of mine that regularly breeds several hundred locality alterna every year. His waiting list for locality alterna is backlogged for 2 years at a minimum. And he has several offspring and w/c adults that look very similar, and some that are even MORE oddball...

"Certainty" and "impossible" are very specific words, and neither one of them apply in this case...
 
tyflier said:
Hehe...I HAVE pure alterna similar to that. And so does a very good friend of mine that regularly breeds several hundred locality alterna every year. His waiting list for locality alterna is backlogged for 2 years at a minimum. And he has several offspring and w/c adults that look very similar, and some that are even MORE oddball...

"Certainty" and "impossible" are very specific words, and neither one of them apply in this case...
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You show that snake to Shannon and see what he says about it.
 
tyflier said:
Hehe...I HAVE pure alterna similar to that. And so does a very good friend of mine that regularly breeds several hundred locality alterna every year. His waiting list for locality alterna is backlogged for 2 years at a minimum. And he has several offspring and w/c adults that look very similar, and some that are even MORE oddball...

"Certainty" and "impossible" are very specific words, and neither one of them apply in this case...
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That is what bothers me. With so many species of snakes, their "normal" look can be vastly different from snake to snake. Even if it is standard that it should look oneway, there is always a possibility of there being oddballs that will stand out. I understand the point if you knowingly have a hybrid and label it as pure - but in a case like this where there is no definitive way to know for sure one way or the other....then there is no room for words like "certainty" or "impossible". ANYTHING is possible - even if it is not probable.
 
mike17l said:
You show that snake to Shannon and see what he says about it.
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Does it matter?

The point is not to say that it ISN'T a hybrid. The point is that you cannot be 100% sure. Even if Shannon, or the person I was actually referring to in my post, had the same opinion as you do...it wouldn't change the fact that it is still just an opinion.

You're missing the point, Mike. Nobody is saying it ISN'T a hybrid. We are just pointing out the simple fact that your assessment is nothing more than an opinion.

And just to be clear...you don't know me or who I know. You shouldn't ASSume anything about me. You have no idea who I was talking about in my post. But I imagine you will claim it as a "fact", somehow, that you "know" who I was talking about and I don't, right?:nope:
 
mike17l said:
Better yet, post a pic of it on an alterna forum and see what is said about it.
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IT DOESN'T MATTER. They would ALL be opinions, not facts, unless the breeder or someone that KNOWS the breeder comes in here and says with certainty based on KNOWING the lineage...IT IS ALL CONJECTURE AND OPINION.

It doesn't matter how many people share the opinion...it's still just an opinion. What part of that can't you understand?
 
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