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Don Soderberg's Palmetto

I never thought the Palmetto was a rat snake . . .

yeah I was similar on that...

I havent accused anyone of anything, just merely expressed an opinion, and since reading what Don wrong himself, he isnt even certain that the palmetto is a pure corn himself. so lets not carry on with this.

For the record, Cornmorphs, I ALWAYS thought it was a corn. It bred to a corn in just a few minutes, when first introduced. Often, it can take hours or days for a corn to breed a rat snake, if you don't play the usual sniff and swap games to get them aroused. As closely related as Corns and Black Rat Snakes are, it's amazingly difficult to get them to marry sometimes. The usual pre-conjugal tactic is to put a male and female rat snake together at the same time you put a male and female corn together. Once the romance reaches a point of mutual consent, you swap males. They are so aroused, some would breed a long lizard. When Daryl put the male Palmetto with a corn, they locked up very quickly, with no hesitations. If that was not a good sign, babies only weighing only 4 grams certainly is compelling. And so on, and so on. I really can't think of one single contentious test result that pointed to him being a rat snake. I never once doubted his species, but in so much as several Europeans (and Americans) were challenging me, I was obligated to do as many key comparisons as possible. If I'm 99% certain (and that would be a fair percentage of my belief), the last 1% will be cinched by the final test I have in store for them this year. AND I'm only doing that to lay to rest all the speculations of non-legitimacy. I had to really reach and dream to come up with this last test, and I seriously doubt who there is a single other snake breeder in the world that would have thought of it. The test I will perform this breeding season is one that scientists of yesteryear would never have done, since most of their taxonomy was based on evaluations of preserved specimens. Certainly that was the case in the 1700s when it was not easy (if possible at all) to keep snakes alive on the boat trip from North America to European museums.

Suffice to say, most evaluators would be completely satisfied by the findings already described, but for that last one percent, I'm piling on one more fact/comparison. If that is not enough for the nay-sayers (and there are ALWAYS some people who challenge every large or small evidence), they'll just have to be in that group of snake keepers who will never own a Palmetto.

I'm not saying that you are in that minute percentage, but I wanted to let you know that I have NO reservations about the taxonomy of the Palmetto. It appears that people who cannot see it in person - and/or believe that it looks too bazaar to be a corn - may not ever agree with our findings. That is their prerogative, but if they base their judgement on the absence of recognizable markings and colors, they had better be prepared for some of the genetic mutations yet to be demonstrated. There seems to be no end to the varieties of mutations, as evidenced by the almost surreal appearance of the Palmetto. Even if this were a rat snake (and I seriously doubt anyone would challenge the Palmetto, were that to be the reality), it is like no other serpent I've ever seen, and therefore non-assignable to ANY other serpent species, on the basis of color and pattern (or lack of pattern). The closest reptile mutation I've seen to this one is that of a Crested Gecko that looks shockingly like the Palmetto (in the realm of color and pattern). Meet me here in 1,000 years so we can both be amused by the shocking quantity, degrees, and variations of serpent mutations. That is, if this planet is still habitable in 1,000 years??
 
cornmprhs (Adam, right?), I was talking about two dutch guys, I have noticed it seems to be a bit of a dutch attitude. Some German people reacted on my FB post, they seem to be more open and not biased, just a bit careful and waiting to see more coming about the Palmetto.
 
babies only weighing only 4 grams

Hey Don,
Do the babies take regular redhots or do you have a special colony of miniature mice to produce extra small pinkies?

Is the dorsal color glossy, semi-glossy, or matte finish?

May I pester you for a photo of the belly please?

Does Palmetto have a somewhat slower growth rate to reach maturity?

How long is the oldest (presumably original) specimen?

Thanks for any considerations, & for sharing everything.

I have noticed it seems to be a bit of a dutch attitude.

Perhaps it merely seems to be 'attitude'. I would imagine when I learn a 3rd or 4th language, I might inadvertently say something which comes off to the viewing audience as 'attitude', though it is an attempt to learn something from another culture's knowledge base which I can apply to my personal development & enrichment.

dp
 
Cornmorphs,
I was referring to someone else, not you...
Unless you too think that Don has a secret hybrid-making lab and is lying to us.

I thought that your opinions were honest speculation.
 
Don,

This sort of speculation seems to occur whenever a really interesting and new morph arises in any popular line, and I'm sorry you have to deal with it. Even by looking at the wild-caught male, there is very little that says rat snake. Furthermore, and the total clincher, was that all the F1 looked PURE corn (no hybrid markers anywhere!). But, if you really want to put this to rest, I'm sure with enough research you could find a group of academics that might want to include a genetic sample into a revised phylogenetic tree they're working on. The results from that study would permanently put an end to this back-and-forth. It might take a little while to find current research that's already planning on doing a genetic study, but I'm sure it's doable. Well, I hope all is well, and take care.

Mitch
 
Can't wait to get mine.
I'll be breeding them to garter snakes and black rats to make
tessera chocolate chips.

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
 
Hey Don,
Do the babies take regular redhots or do you have a special colony of miniature mice to produce extra small pinkies?

Is the dorsal color glossy, semi-glossy, or matte finish?

May I pester you for a photo of the belly please?

Does Palmetto have a somewhat slower growth rate to reach maturity?

How long is the oldest (presumably original) specimen?

Thanks for any considerations, & for sharing everything.



Perhaps it merely seems to be 'attitude'. I would imagine when I learn a 3rd or 4th language, I might inadvertently say something which comes off to the viewing audience as 'attitude', though it is an attempt to learn something from another culture's knowledge base which I can apply to my personal development & enrichment.

dp

I speak Dutch with them, no misunderstanding what they mean :)

Just to be clear, I did not intend at all to revive or start a discussion about the palmetto's origin, since I totally believe Don's sincerity. I only wanted to try to find out what happened to the chocolate chip ratsnake to see if I could explain to the Dutch guy what happened to it and why it disappeared as a morph, so it would be clear that it is not the source for the palmetto gene. I hope nobody, including Don, felt bothered by my posts.

Don, you wanted to hear what the corn people in my Facebook group think about the palmetto, well, only one Dutch guy bothered to react and he is suspicious about palmetto, Tessera and (co) dominant genes in corns in general because they are discovered by large American breeders, with which he in general has had bad experiences and events are just too good to be true. He does claim though that he also knows Dutch breeders who lie about stuff to sell their corns, so the market in general is a mess. And new genes are ridiculously expensive, nobody should buy them to make their sellers lower the price. Two German people are just curious what palmetto will bring us as a morph and what evidence might show up either way when breeding more of them. I guess I am the only Dutch corn keeper who sees no reason to suspect your palmetto (or you to be more precise), so I think I deserve a nice swap deal for one :p
 
A Little long "rant" but not too long

Just a couple of observations and comments. Most “questions” and statements are rhetorical and really require no other responses or comments; you can ignore me if you like or we can get in the mud and wrestle. Also, Barbara, I think everyone understands you were just a fairer of the Dutch guy’s message, no one is angry at you.

  • I mean no disrespect to any of our European friends unless you fall in the same category as Barbara’s Dutch “Friend” and you share his same wide brush stroke view of all Americans. Since when did American’s lock down the lying game? I am pretty sure lying is common (not acceptable, but common) in nearly every country in the world. Perhaps that is just my pig headiness American way though. I am part Scottish too so it just makes it worse eh? The propensity to lie is a universal trait and depending on your beliefs, it was passed down either from Eve or Java Man (whatever earliest man is called).

  • I find it amusing that corns are the species most quickly accused of being hybridized. Pituophis may be a close second, but corns are definitely number one. Rich asked a great question to which no one has answered. As far as I know, there has been no proven “Hey I admit it, 10 years ago me and Bubba Charlie Tim Bob (one guy) crossed a weird looking western fox snake with a corn snake so that in 14 years later we could make a fortune on it’s crazy looking babies because they would look like a corn and no one would know it wasn’t a pure corn, well no one but me and Bubba Charlie Tim Bob”. I am just not sure where all these corn snake hybrid factories are. In today’s age of social media, it is nearly impossible to keep something new a secret. Could it be done, sure, I just don’t think it is very likely. With Pituophis, there have been known and proven hybridizations, especially with Ruthveni so there the accusations are somewhat understandable in nature, but with corns, there just hasn’t been enough proof.

If all these corn morphs of late have been created with other species or subspecies, then these new traits would have to have been wild caughts or we would have seen them pop up with other breeders but in different species/subspecies right?

  • Barbara posted that some of our European counterparts suspect some of the newer morphs because they were produced by the large breeders. If those breeders have a respectable reputation, wouldn’t that be a good indication that it is factual? Maybe not, but I would think if a Rich, Don, KJUN (where did he land when he fell of the snake planet) and a few others produce a new trait, then I would tend to believe it more than if the new trait came from the afore mentioned Bubba Charlie Tim Bob. So far as I know, I have no reason to question the moral fiber of Don, Rich, KJ and several other big name breeders.

That said, doesn’t it also make more sense that these new traits pop up in the large breeders colonies? They work with larger numbers and have a much large percentage chance of “identifying” new traits or anomalies right? To me it would be more suspicious and convenient for a new trait to pop out from a “breeder” who had only two corns and had no clue as to their heritage because they were bought at a Pet’s Mart or show where he forgot what table they came from. Does this make sense or are you looking at me like I have bananas growing out my ears? Please do not confuse found morphs in the wild with what this discussion is about. I am addressing the “Dr. Frankenberg created the Palmetto in his lab.

I have nothing to gain from posting this. True, I owned the Palmetto for a little while and then sold it to Don, but I have to buy hatchling this year just the same as everyone else and had to get on the list just like everyone else. I held the snake and was the first to breed it (to a female provided by Don and at Jim Godfrey’s suggestion). BTW, Jim is French/Swiss, if that matters. I saw no reason to question the Palmettos purity. When he was side by side with a “known corn”, he looked normal, not odd at all.

  • Regarding the Chocolate Chip black rat being utilized to create the Palmetto, is it possible, sure, is it likely? In my opinion, no it isn’t. I held the Chocolate Chip at Doug Moody’s place. He asked what I thought it was and I said some sort of rat snake and he said he thought it was a black rat. The best my memory serves, two young boys brought it to him from his neighborhood in the NE corner of South Carolina. The snake died in a heater accident in 1997 or 1998 I think. Doug then got out of most of his snakes. When he showed me the snake I was buying some Albino Nelsoni from his original line and he said his plan was to create more of them but he wasn’t even sure if it was reproducible or not. Does that sound like some one trying to use his black rat morph for evil? Admittedly, the snake looks very similar to the Palmetto

Ok, there were supposedly some “hets” produced and sold. Not all were sold to the same person so if the Chocolate Chip was used to create the Palmetto, what happened to all the other chocolate chips that would have been produced from the hets by several people? I can’t imagine some sort of conspiracy was hatched 12-14 years ago between several breeders to create a new corn morph in late 2000 sometime. Possible I guess, just not very probable. Assuming they did do that, I know what I paid for the original Palmetto and if that was split between say 4-5 people, it would hardly seem worth the effort. I assure you it was a large sum of
money, but not enough for a 12-14 year project split several ways.

  • My last thought on the “hybrid” accusations that tend to fly is very basic…many times I think it stems from pure jealousy. “I can’t afford it or own it” “ I hate that danged big breeder so and so” or insert whatever other reason you want, but it is jealousy many times in my opinion. Maybe I am wrong, but akin to lying, jealousy is also a uniquely human trait that is not just isolated to American’s. I do not mean to offend anyone who can not afford the Palmetto, that is not my intention, heck, I can barely afford to buy one. My point is, many times a person that can’t, tends to hate and accuse. Unfortunately many of the jealous type like to stir up and keep controversy going. Why? I don’t know but some people are just wired that way. Sometimes when you are wrestling with the pig in the mud, you realize the pig likes the mud so he wins no matter what.
dc



 
LOL @ 'pig saying': new for me but true and so funny!

You precisely use the same logic as I do, with the large breeding stock and chances of discovering a mutation and so on. But I learned that if people have a basic belief system different then yours, it is hardly possible to agree on the subject involved. So, if someone thinks it is more probable that tesseras come from a secret hybridisation lab then that they just popped up in a very large breeding colony, there is no use trying to convince them with your own, opposite belief.
 
LOL @ 'pig saying': new for me but true and so funny!

You precisely use the same logic as I do, with the large breeding stock and chances of discovering a mutation and so on. But I learned that if people have a basic belief system different then yours, it is hardly possible to agree on the subject involved. So, if someone thinks it is more probable that tesseras come from a secret hybridisation lab then that they just popped up in a very large breeding colony, there is no use trying to convince them with your own, opposite belief.


I agree with you especially with the Palmetto and Tessera genes. I don't think there is any middle ground, either they think it is pure or it is a hybrid. I don't think there are many out there that are on the fence about those two.

dc
 
LOL @ 'pig saying': new for me but true and so funny!

You precisely use the same logic as I do, with the large breeding stock and chances of discovering a mutation and so on. But I learned that if people have a basic belief system different then yours, it is hardly possible to agree on the subject involved. So, if someone thinks it is more probable that tesseras come from a secret hybridisation lab then that they just popped up in a very large breeding colony, there is no use trying to convince them with your own, opposite belief.

All that was said is very true, but regarding the Tessera and Palmetto specifically, if one can fully understand just how insanely NORMAL looking the corns are that BOTH of these morphs actually PRODUCE, that is really all that is needed to know they are genuine cornsnakes. It is really just as simple as that. I think far too many people are focusing solely on how bizarre they look, than they are their reasoning with what the NORMALS look like.. :cool:



~Doug
 
I have known many in this hobby, as I have been in the hobby for quite some time, almost all my life.

There is no one I know like Don. Don's word is as good as gold. Actually, it IS gold.

Not only am I blessed to have him as a good friend, but have been blessed with his selfless service to our hobby, in promoting the hobby for what it is: A priveledge and an intense way to be amazed by serpents.

My 2 cents.
I appreciate that, and I have always admired Don and many others for what they do. I was just giving an opinion on the limited info available to me, maybe what i wrote came across wrong, it wasnt ment to be offensive or anything.

For the record, Cornmorphs, I ALWAYS thought it was a corn. It bred to a corn in just a few minutes, when first introduced. Often, it can take hours or days for a corn to breed a rat snake, if you don't play the usual sniff and swap games to get them aroused. As closely related as Corns and Black Rat Snakes are, it's amazingly difficult to get them to marry sometimes. The usual pre-conjugal tactic is to put a male and female rat snake together at the same time you put a male and female corn together. Once the romance reaches a point of mutual consent, you swap males. They are so aroused, some would breed a long lizard. When Daryl put the male Palmetto with a corn, they locked up very quickly, with no hesitations. If that was not a good sign, babies only weighing only 4 grams certainly is compelling. And so on, and so on. I really can't think of one single contentious test result that pointed to him being a rat snake. I never once doubted his species, but in so much as several Europeans (and Americans) were challenging me, I was obligated to do as many key comparisons as possible. If I'm 99% certain (and that would be a fair percentage of my belief), the last 1% will be cinched by the final test I have in store for them this year. AND I'm only doing that to lay to rest all the speculations of non-legitimacy. I had to really reach and dream to come up with this last test, and I seriously doubt who there is a single other snake breeder in the world that would have thought of it. The test I will perform this breeding season is one that scientists of yesteryear would never have done, since most of their taxonomy was based on evaluations of preserved specimens. Certainly that was the case in the 1700s when it was not easy (if possible at all) to keep snakes alive on the boat trip from North America to European museums.

Suffice to say, most evaluators would be completely satisfied by the findings already described, but for that last one percent, I'm piling on one more fact/comparison. If that is not enough for the nay-sayers (and there are ALWAYS some people who challenge every large or small evidence), they'll just have to be in that group of snake keepers who will never own a Palmetto.

I'm not saying that you are in that minute percentage, but I wanted to let you know that I have NO reservations about the taxonomy of the Palmetto. It appears that people who cannot see it in person - and/or believe that it looks too bazaar to be a corn - may not ever agree with our findings. That is their prerogative, but if they base their judgement on the absence of recognizable markings and colors, they had better be prepared for some of the genetic mutations yet to be demonstrated. There seems to be no end to the varieties of mutations, as evidenced by the almost surreal appearance of the Palmetto. Even if this were a rat snake (and I seriously doubt anyone would challenge the Palmetto, were that to be the reality), it is like no other serpent I've ever seen, and therefore non-assignable to ANY other serpent species, on the basis of color and pattern (or lack of pattern). The closest reptile mutation I've seen to this one is that of a Crested Gecko that looks shockingly like the Palmetto (in the realm of color and pattern). Meet me here in 1,000 years so we can both be amused by the shocking quantity, degrees, and variations of serpent mutations. That is, if this planet is still habitable in 1,000 years??
]
Hi Don, thats fair enough dude. It was really just an opinion from limited information that I made, mainly on looks. The comment I made about you saying that you werent sure was maybe mis written, I ment that you said you werent or couldnt be certain that it was pure corn, even though you believed the palmetto to be so.. I 100% hope it is.
I didnt mean the post to sound critical, more just a doubt of the situation personally. I am happy to be proved wrong at any point in time about any subject, and always apologise at the right time when this is done.
I did admit before my 1st post I hadnt done a lot of reading on the snake, but my view was mainly done from how the snake looks.
I'm still not convinced of course, I simply cant backtrack just like that to please the majority.. one thing though, I think its best for people to come out and be honest rather than sit there and just say 'its Don so it must be correct' for instance. I'd rather talk about it and be proved wrong than sit on another forum and shout out stuff without directly having the person involved seeing it.
I do know a lot of your work, having martin over here as one of my good friends, he speaks to highly of you its unreal,and have therefor also seen many of your snakes... not sure I own any?, no doubt will do though without knowing.
Thanks for taking the time to do the post, much appreciated.
hope that all makes sense.

cornmprhs (Adam, right?), I was talking about two dutch guys, I have noticed it seems to be a bit of a dutch attitude. Some German people reacted on my FB post, they seem to be more open and not biased, just a bit careful and waiting to see more coming about the Palmetto.
hi, no its Nigel, I know who you mean when you say Adam though..
That situation is similar to how I ment it all to come across I guess, I am obviously cautious too, and to pay however many thousands of $$$ for the snake or hets, I would want to be very convinced.. saying that, how many of us own corns that are not pure anyway?, with creamsicle or ultra unknowingly being in there??, plus what else?? a lot I suspect.

Cornmorphs,
I was referring to someone else, not you...
Unless you too think that Don has a secret hybrid-making lab and is lying to


us.

I thought that your opinions were honest speculation.
Hi, Maybe it wasnt me, but yes I did have similar views I think. Not on the hybrid-making lab thing of course, and I dont doubt for one minute that Don has tried to mislead us all, as said above I have a personal friend who has a lot of contact with Don, and not many do I understand, and he speaks very highly.. Its likely I would put Don right at the top of any list of potential places to buy from in the states. Ironically, I havent ever brought directly from his as yet, but have done from most of the major US breeders, of which most I would not buy from again. Obviously I dont mention names or talk much about it, I prefer not to get sued lol.
If Don had something I wanted enough, and of course if he was willing to sell to me, I would happily buy from him, so I;m certainly not trying to put any off of doing so at all. I suspect by the time I eventually see one in the flesh, I would likely want one anyway lol... I do of course need to read up a lot more of the research that Don has done as I havent done a great deal of that to this point, mainly what is on this thread and on posts elsewhere.


anyway, please keep us all updated Don, love seeing new pictures of anything new that happens.
 
I have to stop looking at these!! LOL I need that money in my savings...
Anyone know when they will be around for the collectors? I'm sure it will take a few years for them to make their way up North. They are defintally something worth waiting for.
 
Anyone know when they will be around for the collectors? I'm sure it will take a few years for them to make their way up North. They are defintally something worth waiting for.

Don took reservations &/or deposits, in 2011, for 2012 Female Palmettos.
As it stands, right now, males will not be available for a few years.
So, the first Palmettos, to go out to customers/breeders/collectors/etc., will be this year.
 
So..... WHEN is everyone getting their palmettos?!? I saw three (3) of you guys were! So when will they arrive??! It's far into 2012!
 
So..... WHEN is everyone getting their palmettos?!? I saw three (3) of you guys were! So when will they arrive??! It's far into 2012!

I might pick mine up this weekend. However, I might not! I told Don to bring it, then wrote him back the next day saying just ship it! :laugh: I just got to thinking I don't need a $4000 snake in my motel room and I can't carry her around all weekend. But I'm not sure he got the 2nd email! :eek:
 
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