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Don Soderberg's Palmetto

For what should be OBVIOUS reasons, I am moving this thread to the Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues forum.

And if I may make a comment or three here, I actually think it is very rare these days for ANY new mutation to show up in the corn snake without someone yelping that it must be a hybrid. Seriously, WHO exactly ARE the people to make these kinds of snap decisions with no more direct hands-on experience with the animals than the man in the moon? Personally, I would be very curious to see how many of such proclamations wind up pointing to the same small group of persons whose apparent goal is to just spread doubt and engage in malicious mischief for their own personal or professional reasons.

Actually, I've never understood the logic that they use to come to the conclusion that apparently the ONLY way to come up with a new mutation is via outcrossing the corn snake with a completely different species. If that theory were true, why weren't we completely bombarded by a plethora of new mutations when years ago it was all the rage to breed so many of the various species of tri-colored Lampropeltis together? Remember all the hybrids generated using L. ruthveni, L. campbelli, L. alterna, etc., etc? And why are we not seeing such genetic aberrations in TODAY's purposeful breedings of corn snakes to not only different species, but completely different GENERA? Sorry, but REAL logic dictates that you just cannot have one situation without the other. And if I may be so bold to suggest, if hybridization is apparently the ONLY way to generate new color and pattern mutations in the corn snake, then what law of nature is it that dictates that it can ONLY happen when done in a nefarious manner employing subterfuge and deception? :rolleyes:

Seriously, how many people PURPOSELY hybridizing the corn snake have produced a bonafide new genetic trait by doing so? Anyone?
 
I'll probably get shot down in flames no doubt, but at the moment, my opinion is that for me, it simply doesnt look like a cornsnake. something about the eyes more than the shape, the shape looks fine.
I have read a lot of the thread, and i'd very much like to be wrong, its always good to have something new..
so, this is just an opinion based on pictures really, without doing massive amounts of research (not that much is possible I guess)..
so please dont all go mental at me, i'd be very happy to be wrong on this.
I apprciate the people here who say its corn have many many years experience, and i'm not far behind some of them, so i'd like my view to not be dealt with as some inexperienced newbie who hasnt got a clue, as this very much is not the case.
 
All I can add is that my husband (Bill Love) saw and photographed the original wild caught Palmetto when it was still owned by Parish Coker, long before Don ever saw it in person. I believe I posted one of Bill's photos on this forum, probably before Don purchased the animal. I also talked to Parish on the phone a few times and discussed breeding corns (I think I gave him one of my books, too) in case he decided to keep it. He was not a snake breeder, and I don't believe he would have had the knowledge at that time to have produced any snake progeny unless by accident, and so I don't believe he carried on any secret hybrid projects.

Bill has been collecting and / or breeding corns and other herps since he was 15 years old (that was a LONG time ago, lol!), and has a very good eye for details. So that was enough to convince me that when Bill said the original animal seemed "corn" in every way except color and pattern, it was as close to a definitive answer as possible, short of some sort of DNA confirmation. I don't believe that any corn "expert" , no matter how experienced, could give as valid of an opinion, if he or she has only looked at photos rather than seeing and touching the actual animal. Photos are great, but not quite the same thing. Add Don's breeding results to Bill's examination of the wild caught original, and I have no doubt that it is "just" a corn. IMHO, of course!

I should mention that Bill and I do not own, and never have owned, any Palmettos. So we have no financial stake in the matter and no reason to give anything other than our honest opinions.
 
Having now read the whole thread here, and looking at the pictures, I am certainly quite a lot more leaning towards corn snake now, than at any point previous.
I hadnt seen these pictures before, nor read most of the information..
Based on all that, I think long term the palmetto may be something I would invest in.
 
kathylove said:
All I can add is that my husband (Bill Love) saw and photographed the original wild caught Palmetto when it was still owned by Parish Coker, long before Don ever saw it in person. I believe I posted one of Bill's photos on this forum, probably before Don purchased the animal. I also talked to Parish on the phone a few times and discussed breeding corns (I think I gave him one of my books, too) in case he decided to keep it. He was not a snake breeder, and I don't believe he would have had the knowledge at that time to have produced any snake progeny unless by accident, and so I don't believe he carried on any secret hybrid projects.

Bill has been collecting and / or breeding corns and other herps since he was 15 years old (that was a LONG time ago, lol!), and has a very good eye for details. So that was enough to convince me that when Bill said the original animal seemed "corn" in every way except color and pattern, it was as close to a definitive answer as possible, short of some sort of DNA confirmation. I don't believe that any corn "expert" , no matter how experienced, could give as valid of an opinion, if he or she has only looked at photos rather than seeing and touching the actual animal. Photos are great, but not quite the same thing. Add Don's breeding results to Bill's examination of the wild caught original, and I have no doubt that it is "just" a corn. IMHO, of course!

I should mention that Bill and I do not own, and never have owned, any Palmettos. So we have no financial stake in the matter and no reason to give anything other than our honest opinions.
Click to expand...

Yes, and along with seeing the normal F-1 hets in the link below that were first produced, as well as the F-2 clutches is all I need to see to have absolutely zero doubt..

the pics below are indeed the ultimate clincher!.. :cool:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113565&highlight=palmetto&page=6
 
my opinion is that for me, it simply doesnt look like a cornsnake. something about the eyes more than the shape
Click to expand...

I admit the first thing that made me go "whut?" were the eyes. Then I started comparing the eyes of the palmettos to other leucistics (I know I know, wait for it...), such as the texas and black rats, ball pythons and burmese pythons. Their eyes are pretty much the same in appearance, a weird, silvery blue. As I think it was mentioned the "palmetto" seems to be a form of leucism, maybe being an "incomplete leucistic". It made sense then (to me, and purely speculative) why the eyes appeared as they did. Maybe (again speculative) leucism affects eye color as well...
 
Some random guy wants to challenge Bill Love and Don Soderburg?

I don't see this going anywhere.

Especially since the accusations are of having some secret hybrid breeding facility and then lying to the public.
 
I do no think the guy is challenging them per se but he is voicing his opinion in a place he feels safe from anyone with enough knowledge and common sense to speak up against him, than I joined the thread. He did not reply anymore so far, I guess he knows when the game is over, so to speak.
 
SnakeAround said:
he is voicing his opinion in a place he feels safe from anyone with enough knowledge and common sense to speak up against him
Click to expand...


That sounds like a couple people I know of on the KS forum, but they don't have the common sense to know when the "game is over" and quit with the BS...:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


~Doug
 
Same happened on a cornsnake group on Facebook, one person admitted he is biased against American large breeders (because of bad experiences with them) , when asked to just look at the info without his bias, he did not reply again.
 
SnakeAround said:
Same happened on a cornsnake group on Facebook, one person admitted he is biased against American large breeders (because of bad experiences with them) , when asked to just look at the info without his bias, he did not reply again.
Click to expand...

Yes, you will run into people like that in virtually any business or large hobby.

The old addage "it takes all kinds" certainly adds true in herpetoculture too.. :duck:

It can be very annoying at times, but it is what it is I guess.


~Doug
 
SnakeAround said:
I hope to have good experiences in the near future with some of you :)
Click to expand...

I think the rest of this forum feels the very same way with having a good friendly future relationship with you as well. I mean, ...everyone will have disagreements from time to time, and that is always expected and quite normal, but it is important to show respect and common courtesy at the same time... :)



cheers, ~Doug
 
chris68 said:
I admit the first thing that made me go "whut?" were the eyes. Then I started comparing the eyes of the palmettos to other leucistics (I know I know, wait for it...), such as the texas and black rats, ball pythons and burmese pythons. Their eyes are pretty much the same in appearance, a weird, silvery blue. As I think it was mentioned the "palmetto" seems to be a form of leucism, maybe being an "incomplete leucistic". It made sense then (to me, and purely speculative) why the eyes appeared as they did. Maybe (again speculative) leucism affects eye color as well...
Click to expand...
yeah I was similar on that...
Naagas said:
Some random guy wants to challenge Bill Love and Don Soderburg?

I don't see this going anywhere.

Especially since the accusations are of having some secret hybrid breeding facility and then lying to the public.
Click to expand...
If you are refering to me as the random guy, I was just displaying an opinion that the greater majority dont have the balls to. as for being random, (and I dont like to say things like this, because it just seems wrong and rude), but to back myself up, I am one of the biggest and longest time breeders of corns in europe and have been very close to quite a few world 1sts myself, and with some of what I am doing right now, its only a matter of time before I get a few. so it seems, you like me probably didnt do much research before commenting. we all do it at times. I havent accused anyone of anything, just merely expressed an opinion, and since reading what Don wrong himself, he isnt even certain that the palmetto is a pure corn himself. so lets not carry on with this.
If you want to talk about the specifics of it all, I am of course happy to read and learn more, and had said in my next post that I did read more and was certainly more convinced it was corn than I previously had been.
If your comments were not aimed at me, then I apologise for the rant.

DMong said:
That sounds like a couple people I know of on the KS forum, but they don't have the common sense to know when the "game is over" and quit with the BS...:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


~Doug
Click to expand...
If your comments are at me too, then the above is also aimed at you, if not then I apologise to you too.

SnakeAround said:
Same happened on a cornsnake group on Facebook, one person admitted he is biased against American large breeders (because of bad experiences with them) , when asked to just look at the info without his bias, he did not reply again.
Click to expand...

I dont think this one was me, but I did make similar comments. Not about being biased, I have no issues with anyone over there, hell all of my corns will have come from the US at one point anyway, so couldnt have had my collection without those guys.
I did however have several bad experiences when importing, losing many many snakes, and losing none of my own during the same period.
The thing is, when importing, the general rule from the seller is once the snakes arrive at the broker, its not their problem if anything goes wrong, and to an extent I agree.. but you just dont expect to have such bad luck, I accept losing the odd snake is going to happen though.
Having brought from most of the biggest breeders in the US I can safely say on the whole I have been happy with how things went, but due to all the problems on the other imports I probably wont do a large scale import again.
Also, 2 or 3 of the guys I brought from said I spent the most money anyone had ever spent from europe, so we';re not talking small numbers.. I guess in the region of £50,000 over a few years, so maybe $80000-85000 I imagine.
I since decided I would try and produce all my own new morphs, and have been successful doing it, and as mentioned there are loads of projects I have on the go that have a chance of me producing world 1sts, and that from my own efforts, not snakes that I have brought in that are het for many rare morphs,all my won hard work. I am now happy to do it this way..
anyway, hope these few posts help to clear up that I am not a small time breeder with 2 or 3 snakes that has no clue, as it seems this is the opinion of a few. I should produce 60-65 morphs this year, and have around 100 in all... so not too shabby.. chin up guys, we gotta stick together.


and well done to the Giants, great game that was.
 
cornmorphs, I think that they were talking about the fellow on the Dutch forums. I could be wrong though.
 
No, ......my comment was not about you whatsoever. My comment was very general and was in reference to some jerks I know of on a different forum just as I stated.


cheers, ~Doug
 
Don, congratulations on this project! Babies look amazing! I hope one day to be able to own one as well :) Probley will be a LONG time before they make their way up north. Best of luck :)
Can you all imagine them with different color flecks? Like hypo, anery, caramel, diffused... The possiblilites are endless!!
 
I have known many in this hobby, as I have been in the hobby for quite some time, almost all my life.

There is no one I know like Don. Don's word is as good as gold. Actually, it IS gold.

Not only am I blessed to have him as a good friend, but have been blessed with his selfless service to our hobby, in promoting the hobby for what it is: A priveledge and an intense way to be amazed by serpents.

My 2 cents.
 
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