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Don Soderberg's Palmetto

One day I'll be able to read Don's post in it's entirety but for right now, I really don't need to as I've been around long enough to trust Don's word that he is satisfied the Palmetto is a pure corn. I've also been around long enough to have seen many new corn morphs come into being and just about every one of them has had that small group say the gene came from another species. IMO, it's most likely just jealously speaking because they either didn't discover it themselves, they had the chance to get in early but didn't, just hate the breeder for discovering yet another new mutation, are just plain mad at the world or a combination of any of these and more. All I did was post the only references I was able to find to a "chocolate chip rat snake" and was not impressed with what I found. I see nothing there for this Dutch forum to base any sort of claim of hybridization in the Palmetto. I would love to own one some day, but I will have to wait the many years for the price to drop to the range I can afford.
 
One day I'll be able to read Don's post in it's entirety but for right now, I really don't need to as I've been around long enough to trust Don's word that he is satisfied the Palmetto is a pure corn. I've also been around long enough to have seen many new corn morphs come into being and just about every one of them has had that small group say the gene came from another species. IMO, it's most likely just jealously speaking because they either didn't discover it themselves, they had the chance to get in early but didn't, just hate the breeder for discovering yet another new mutation, are just plain mad at the world or a combination of any of these and more. All I did was post the only references I was able to find to a "chocolate chip rat snake" and was not impressed with what I found. I see nothing there for this Dutch forum to base any sort of claim of hybridization in the Palmetto. I would love to own one some day, but I will have to wait the many years for the price to drop to the range I can afford.

Just to be clear about it; it is not the forum as a whole, there is just a member in a discussion suggesting stuff. No other members take part in the discussion, except to say they think the Palmetto looks like a ratsnake.
 
Awesome you took the time to reply so extensively, your logic about mutations is exactly what I'm trying to make the guy understand, but he just thinks the conspiracy theory is way more probable than a palmetto like gene appearing twice.

So maybe it's time to quit reasoning with him and just say STfrickU. Who cares what he thinks, anyway?

Thanks for the excellent post, Don.
 
Just to be clear about it; it is not the forum as a whole, there is just a member in a discussion suggesting stuff. No other members take part in the discussion, except to say they think the Palmetto looks like a ratsnake.

One also has to also keep in mind that there is one HUUUGE factor in all this that dictates it most definitely IS a genuine cornsnake, and that is that the normal hets Don produced right off the bat are simply 100% CORNSNAKES!. There is nothing even romotely suggesting in the phenotype/morphology that there is even a tiny hint of obsoletus complex involved. They wouldn't look anything close to this so soon if there was any deception involved. It just won't happen.. :)


~Doug
 
Don, You are still planning on bringing one of these beauties to the NARBC show in Arlington next weekend? Maybe the one that started it all!!!! Any other suprises going to be there?

Todd:dancer:
 
On a non "drama/informational" note, I can't wait to own one on those lil beauties!! Not for breeding but as a pet!
 
Just to be clear about it; it is not the forum as a whole, there is just a member in a discussion suggesting stuff. No other members take part in the discussion, except to say they think the Palmetto looks like a ratsnake.

Me Bad! I thought I had typed "the person on this Dutch forum". I know it is not the forum's opinion and I did not mean to give that impression. My thoughts sometimes go faster than my fingers can type and I didn't proofread well this time. I apologize.
 
That's ok Susan, I just wanted to state that, was not offended. I hope to see a Palmetto real life someday!
 
It means shut the f@#* up; "frick" is country for the f-bomb ;)

Thanks Don for an excellent post from an American corn snake breeder. We in the States sometimes forget there are projects going on in other countries we may not know about and may possibly cast a disparaging eye towards just as J9's fellow Dutch member has towards the Palmetto's. Who knew there was a 10 yr scaleless corn project going on in France unconnected to the scaleless TX rat project here in the States?

I get the purity stance, too. But I think it's naive anymore to pretend ANY corn snake morph is going to be any more "corn" than the next one. You HAVE to go on the word of someone you trust. You HAVE to believe that breeder is going to be as honest and as forthright about their background, whether it's a high-end corn or an amel or a snow. THAT'S your best defense against adding something to your collection you don't want. But the truth is here in 2012 you better know your "p's and q's" and really do your homework...My line of corn's are from a dreaded Ultramel, and the founding mom was an oddball looker on top of it...I can suspect all I want, but theres no proof, and I just pass along what I know...


Alright off my "backyard breeders" soapbox ;)
 
More supporting data . . .

First, thanks to those who support me. Even though this subject is not a contest for support or popularity, I appreciate you. I meant what I said about respecting criticism, but it should be based on facts, instead of prejudices.

Since no-one I know was around when the Tesseras or the Palmetto were created/discovered/captured, I think such snakes that defy convention (what species am I?) should initially be treated as "none of the above", pending investigation. This way, we go back to square ONE, as if it were just captured, and the only way to figure out what it is requires keying it out. At this point, it shouldn't matter what someone is swearing it is or is not. We should weigh the physical features of the usual suspect species against others, and after eliminating all species it CANNOT be, we're hopefully left with ONE that it MUST be. This is the very reason for Taxonomy. Describing relationship between organisms, based on the degree of their similarities. This cannot be properly done via photographs on the Internet.

One also has to also keep in mind that there is one HUUUGE factor in all this that dictates it most definitely IS a genuine cornsnake, and that is that the normal hets Don produced right off the bat are simply 100% CORNSNAKES!. There is nothing even romotely suggesting in the phenotype/morphology that there is even a tiny hint of obsoletus complex involved. They wouldn't look anything close to this so soon if there was any deception involved. It just won't happen.. :)


~Doug

Doug, your post reminded me of a very important characteristic I did not address; hatchling size. The average size of the Palmetto homozygotes (and their non-mutant siblings) has been a mere 4 grams. Since 1973, when I hatched my first rat snake and my first corn snake, I have never hatched a rat snake that weighed only 4 grams (unless there was something wrong with it). In fact, that's even small for a corn.

Since I bred the Palmetto to a corn snake to get the F1 heterozygotes in 2009, if the Palmetto were a different species, the babies should have displayed Hybrid Vigor, in the form of robust babies. Not that all Hybrid pairings result in the exhibition of Hybrid Vigor, but in my 39 years of breeding snakes, I've personally never seen F1 heterozygotes from two separate species that were anything but bigger than the average babies of either species. The only exception (albeit rare) is seen in some creamsicles, but only after more than four or five consecutive generations of in-breeding or back-crossing toward corns. F1 through F4+ predominantly yield large and robust babies. Not until many generations of diluting the Emory's Rat Snake genes (via promotion of corn genes) do we see a reversal in neonatal hatch size, closer to the average size of corns - and that is still uncommon. Hence, it's compelling evidence that the Palmetto is not a species other than P.guttatus. I once again stress that I am not campaigning to persuade people to believe that it's a corn snake, as much as I am expecting rational people to acknowledge physical features, instead of photographs and opinions based on political bias (i.e. All Americans are liars, so it cannot be a corn snake). In the final analysis, without DNA to assist us, science may satisfactorily determine the species via anatomical, morphological, and perhaps physiological attributes. If size, behavior, and scalation are not enough, I have just one more card up my sleeve. I cannot tip my hand until the release of my book, but I believe I know how to reveal the last piece of the puzzle, toward proving the species. A final test this breeding season should solve the mystery (until DNA gets to weigh in). I'm not implying this is a borderline case. I have no reservations calling this a corn snake, but in the interest of satisfying those who believe (just from seeing pictures) that it's not a corn, I'll perform all the usual tests, AND I have one that no-one published. I'm not trying to bait anyone into buying the book when it is published, just to find out. I will reveal the results of this tests before the end of the summer, even if the book is not in print. And by saying that, it means I will reveal the results, regardless of the slant they put on this investigation.

Regarding those who say there is not yet enough evidence, consider this. I don't know a scientist in the world who would dare judge the taxonomy of a new species, by only seeing pictures of it. Camera angles can distort the rendering of features; as can lighting. If this snake had feet or feathers, I'd be the first to say it's not a corn, but in so much as P.guttatus and P.obsoletus are so similar - in the absence of color and pattern - photographs are not a reliable vehicle for comparison.

The original male is showing signs of an impending shed, so he may not make it to the upcoming NARBC Expo, but I will have several of his Palmetto grandkids on display at the NARBC in Arlington, Texas, next week, February 11th and 12th.

Don
 
But the truth is here in 2012 you better know your "p's and q's" and really do your homework


Yes, that's really the bottom line Chris..

It definitely pays to know as much as possible for yourself, and not always depend solely on others for what is necessarily on a deli cup label or ad title. If I had only a nickel for every mislabeled or misrepresented snake that I have ever seen over the years, I could be driving around in a new Lamgorghini every year instead of an older truck that needs the waterpump replaced.. :duck: :laugh:


~Doug
 
Yes, all very good additional points there Don!........I would very much agree with all that you mentioned there as well.


cheers, ~Doug
 
I wonder ? ?

Awesome you took the time to reply so extensively, your logic about mutations is exactly what I'm trying to make the guy understand, but he just thinks the conspiracy theory is way more probable than a palmetto like gene appearing twice. I do wonder why I have not seen anyone bashing my micro scales saying they are hybrids. It does seem to me like being a small scale hobbyist breeder is less suspicious. So, maybe envy of the success of large breeders does play a role after all.

If folks on that European forum are saying it looks like a rat snake, I wonder if they subconsciously correlate the the white body with a Leucistic Rat Snake? If that is the case, they may think that any white snake is a rat snake, since the most famous white snake in our hobby is the Leucistic Rat?? I think if a really good PhotoShopper were to change an image of a regular corn snake to a pure white snake, they would think it was a rat snake? I say this because while there is variety in the head shape of different specimens in most species, the only similarity I see between the Palmettos and the Leucistic Rats is the white body. Perhaps because the predominantly white body is like the Leucistic Rat, they are trusting their judgement of color over body conformation? Maybe their initial mental evaluation reasons, "Where have I seen that look before? Oh yeah. Leucistic Black Rats." Therefore, they deduce that since it is white, it MUST be a rat snake? :shrugs:
 
That is what I am thinking, but it would be very short sighted, don't you think? But it does appear like they are not thinking past the body color... I'm a bit ashamed I have not had anyone else at the forum 'taking my side', like it is a Dutch thing to think no further... Let me see what the Dutch breeders in my Facebook network think, they are not on that forum, they reside on ian's a lot instead, maybe I know why now.
 
Species Debate . . .

That is what I am thinking, but it would be very short sighted, don't you think? But it does appear like they are not thinking past the body color... I'm a bit ashamed I have not had anyone else at the forum 'taking my side', like it is a Dutch thing to think no further... Let me see what the Dutch breeders in my Facebook network think, they are not on that forum, they reside on ian's a lot instead, maybe I know why now.

I wish I had more time to frequent Ian's forums. I really like Ian, and his site is amazing. I will be referencing his site in my new book.

Let me know what your FB corn addicts think, regarding the species vote.
Don
 
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