Salmon Ghost

Camby said:

Not sure what people would want to lable them, but I see a snow and a ghost and in my OPINION, I see no strawberry influence. But I hate "playing" the guess the morph game.

In Jim/JMG line corals and salmons, the pink SEEMS to be more uniformed from head to toe (or tail as it were). At least that is what I see in mine and the ones I have seen in person from JMG.

dc

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Daryl, you mean more like this??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Dang Walter, that's an incredible snow in this post. Looks like a strawberry snow. Some of the critters I've had/have here start out looking like not much, then develop incredibly amazing colors between 6 months and 2 years, and then they fade out and lose some of their color at puberty. Definitely a holdback either way.

The reason I asked about the possibility of 'visually Hypo A' is because of what Don mentions in his post; 'Strawberry is dominant to wild type'. Coupled with Hypo A being recessive to wild type.

Very nice Coral Snow in your last pic, a male I assume? The boys usually have awesome color. Did you produce him? Maybe one day we can swap seedlings.

dave partington said:

Dang Walter, that's an incredible snow in this post. Looks like a strawberry snow. Some of the critters I've had/have here start out looking like not much, then develop incredibly amazing colors between 6 months and 2 years, and then they fade out and lose some of their color at puberty. Definitely a holdback either way.

The reason I asked about the possibility of 'visually Hypo A' is because of what Don mentions in his post; 'Strawberry is dominant to wild type'. Coupled with Hypo A being recessive to wild type.

Very nice Coral Snow in your last pic, a male I assume? The boys usually have awesome color. Did you produce him? Maybe one day we can swap seedlings.

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Thanks Dave, but no Strawberry there, it's (Hypo A based)

Those two (the Ghost & Snow) are descendants from the Coral Snow of Don's that I had here on loan (the one I found to be HOMO Hypo)

The two pics. of the Snow above is my Salmon Snow (Strawberry based) that I got directly off of Jim's table in Daytona.

I did produce the Coral Snow and Coral Ghost (both males). The Ghost was produced one year earlier than the Snow and they are 66% het Bloodred, coming from the Granite I bred Don's Coral Snow to.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Walter Smith said:

Thanks Dave, but no Strawberry there, it's (Hypo A based)

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Well Paint Me Yellow & Call Me Anorexic!!!

Walter Smith said:

Those two (the Ghost & Snow) are descendants from the Coral Snow of Don's that I had here on loan (the one I found to be HOMO Hypo)

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Here's something I saw a few years ago. . It's about a 4-letter word) Sure glad Don't Ask, Don't Tell has been repealed.

Walter Smith said:

The two pics. of the Snow above is my Salmon Snow (Strawberry based) that I got directly off of Jim's table in Daytona.

I did produce the Coral Snow and Coral Ghost (both males). The Ghost was produced one year earlier than the Snow and they are 66% het Bloodred, coming from the Granite I bred Don's Coral Snow to.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

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I think I'll go with the kingpin of the cornsnake mafia, The Don, when I quote:

SODERBERGD said:

I have theories (like we all do) about why corns are pink or coral-colored, but my "guesses" are usually wrong, so I'll refrain from saying why I think some are super-colored and some are not. Other than offering my theory that uber-pink or coral ones are Homos and less-intensely colored ones are visual Hets.

Don

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dave

Thanks for the post Don. Like most of your posts, I find it usually takes me one sentence at a time over a course of weeks to grasp the contents of a Don Bomb.

Dave here are two pics. for you.

Pic. 1) Don's Coral Snow breeding my Granite ~ to show what Don's Coral looks like

Pic. 2) The F1 Anerys that I hald back from that breeding. As you can see the male has developed quite a bit of pink coloration. Also these are the parents of the Coral Snow & Coral Ghost. I also get Hypos in their clutches............and of course Anerys, with some being of the Bloodred pattern.

Unfortunatly, I have not gotten a Coral Ghost Bloodred OR Coral Snow Bloodred (or Coral Avalanche if you perfer) just yet. Fingers crossed for this year.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

Walter, I would say that they DO have strawberry. Most likely hypo A/Strawberry. I have hypos, strawberries and hypo/strawberries and it is extremely difficult to discern between the hypo As and the hypo/strawberry. Being allelic, you really don't know.

Tara80 said:

Walter, I would say that they DO have strawberry. Most likely hypo A/Strawberry. I have hypos, strawberries and hypo/strawberries and it is extremely difficult to discern between the hypo As and the hypo/strawberry. Being allelic, you really don't know.

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Hi Tara,
ya know I have thought about that, BUT I would think if Don's Coral was Strawberry or Hypo A/Strawberry based, I believe it would have a much more intense pink coloration.

I have never seen a light colored Salmon Snow (as Don's is).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing that Hypo A & Strawberry are allelic, you can't have one of them visual (homo) and the other in het form at the same time.
If both traits are the together, they are expressed together.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

So Tom, you think it should stay:

Coral Snow = Amel + Anery + Hypo A
Coral Ghost = Anery + Hypo A

Salmon Snow = Amel + Anery + Strawberry
Salmon Ghost = Anery + Strawberry

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jmho I like this idea, but first breeders need to definitively identify which lines are hypo A based vs Strawberry based vs hypo/strawberry based, because visually they can sure look alot like each other...

SODERBERGD said:

Today, we understand that the Strawberry Mutation is dominant to wild-type. The only two pairings I've done to support that heritability reality was pairing a known Salmon Snow to Anery Mutants Het Amel. Those two pairings resulted in 50% classic Aneries and 50% Aneries with a pink over-wash.

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dave partington said:

The reason I asked about the possibility of 'visually Hypo A' is because of what Don mentions in his post; 'Strawberry is dominant to wild type'. Coupled with Hypo A being recessive to wild type.

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Strawberry is not dominant to wild type (Normal), it is recessive just like Hypo A. Strawberries are produced from Normals het Strawberry all the time. If Strawberry was dominant to Normal, there would not be any Normals het Strawberry.

In Don’s example above he is breeding a Strawberry Amel Anery x Anery het Amel. The entire clutch would be het Strawberry, so IF it was dominant when Anery is expressed, ALL of the offspring would have a pink over wash, because they would all be het Strawberry. Perhaps the Anerys het Amel were also het Hypo A or het Strawberry. In this case, 50% of the Anerys would be homo Strawberry or Strawberry/Hypo which could cause 50% of the Anerys to have a pink over wash.

There have been Anerys with pink for many years, that are not homo or het for Hypo OR Strawberry, so there is obviously a separate cause of pink coloration on Anerys and Snow, other than Strawberry. Red Factor and RedCoat cause pink on Snows and are much more likely to be dominant to wild type and the cause of the pink Anerys in Don’s example above.

Walter Smith said:

Hi Tara,
ya know I have thought about that, BUT I would think if Don's Coral was Strawberry or Hypo A/Strawberry based, I believe it would have a much more intense pink coloration.

I have never seen a light colored Salmon Snow (as Don's is).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing that Hypo A & Strawberry are allelic, you can't have one of them visual (homo) and the other in het form at the same time.
If both traits are the together, they are expressed together.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

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Hypo A and Strawberry are alleles just like Amel and Ultra are and like Striped and Motley are. With Amel and Ultra, they are co-dominant, half way between Amel and Ultra. With Striped and Motley alleles, Motley is dominant, and het Striped and Motleys are visible Motleys het Striped. Remember they all only have one copy of each gene. They are actually, Het Amel Ultra, Het Striped Motley and Het Straw Hypo.

I am not sure about Hypo A and Strawberry, but they seem to be co-dominant like Amel and Ultra, with the phenotype of a Hypo A/ Strawberry being half way in-between the two morphs. Hypos are orange and Strawberries are red. Hypo/Strawberries are orange/red. Now when we apply this to Snows, I agree with Don, that Hypo does not cause pink coloraton. A Hypo Snow would not be pink due to being homo Hypo, where a Strawberry Snow is VERY pink, like Salmon Snows. A Hypo/Straw Snow would be somewhere in between.

It is obvious that Coral Snows (Hypo Snow) and Salmon Snows (Straw Snow) have been mixed together in the beginning. This would produced Hypo/Straw Snows. When a Hypo/Straw Snow is bred to any other Corn, 50% will be het for Straw and 50% het for Hypo. In Don’s example of Straw being dominant to wild type above, I guess it is possible for Straw to be dominant when Anery is expressed, but I doubt it. The Snow in that case would have to be a Hypo/Straw Snow. It is much more likely that a dominant gene such as Red Factor or Red Coat are the cause of 50% pink Anerys.

If Red Factor or Red Coat are dominant, a Het Red Factor bred to any Corn would produced 50% Het Red Factor (Red or Pink) and 50% Normal, just like when we are breeding Het Tesseras which are dominant. Just about all Tesseras are Het Tessera, not homo Tessera.

ecreipeoj said:

I am not sure about Hypo A and Strawberry, but they seem to be co-dominant like Amel and Ultra, with the phenotype of a Hypo A/ Strawberry being half way in-between the two morphs. Hypos are orange and Strawberries are red. Hypo/Strawberries are orange/red. Now when we apply this to Snows, I agree with Don, that Hypo does not cause pink coloraton. A Hypo Snow would not be pink due to being homo Hypo, where a Strawberry Snow is VERY pink, like Salmon Snows. A Hypo/Straw Snow would be somewhere in between.

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First off, thanks so much for your imput Joe. What I have quoted here makes alot of sense.

So by what you are saying here and if you were to look at the pic. of Don's Coral that I posted above, you would say that Don's Coral is Hypo/Straw due to having pink coloration, BUT not intense pink??

And it's more possible that Salmon Snows could also carry the RedCoat trait, which is giving them the intense pinks colors??

Am I following correctly?

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

I'm with Joe on this one, I think. There is more than just hypo and/or strawberry involved in some of these high pink ghosts and snows. Many of the strawberry anerys I've seen photos of have alot of pinky peach in the saddles, but not nearly as much in the ground color as seen in some of the JMG coral ghosts. The same with some strawberry snows. The color is more in the saddles, more a peachy pink and not that lovely overall pink-pink seen the JMG salmon snows. And I'm using the strawberry examples posted by Connie and Chuck in the morph section of that other forum. And I figure they would be about the best ones to be able to identify a strawberry from a hypo from a het hypo het strawberry via microscopic identification. I don't that good of a microscope handy at home, nor enough hands to keep a snake still long enough under the microscope to use it to look. I'm just dying to see the results of breeding one of those pink ghost things with a pink and yellow TS snow!

Great observations, Joe

ecreipeoj said:

Strawberry is not dominant to wild type (Normal), it is recessive just like Hypo A. Strawberries are produced from Normals het Strawberry all the time. If Strawberry was dominant to Normal, there would not be any Normals het Strawberry.

In Don’s example above he is breeding a Strawberry Amel Anery x Anery het Amel. The entire clutch would be het Strawberry, so IF it was dominant when Anery is expressed, ALL of the offspring would have a pink over wash, because they would all be het Strawberry. Perhaps the Anerys het Amel were also het Hypo A or het Strawberry. In this case, 50% of the Anerys would be homo Strawberry or Strawberry/Hypo which could cause 50% of the Anerys to have a pink over wash.

There have been Anerys with pink for many years, that are not homo or het for Hypo OR Strawberry, so there is obviously a separate cause of pink coloration on Anerys and Snow, other than Strawberry. Red Factor and RedCoat cause pink on Snows and are much more likely to be dominant to wild type and the cause of the pink Anerys in Don’s example above.

Hypo A and Strawberry are alleles just like Amel and Ultra are and like Striped and Motley are. With Amel and Ultra, they are co-dominant, half way between Amel and Ultra. With Striped and Motley alleles, Motley is dominant, and het Striped and Motleys are visible Motleys het Striped. Remember they all only have one copy of each gene. They are actually, Het Amel Ultra, Het Striped Motley and Het Straw Hypo.

I am not sure about Hypo A and Strawberry, but they seem to be co-dominant like Amel and Ultra, with the phenotype of a Hypo A/ Strawberry being half way in-between the two morphs. Hypos are orange and Strawberries are red. Hypo/Strawberries are orange/red. Now when we apply this to Snows, I agree with Don, that Hypo does not cause pink coloraton. A Hypo Snow would not be pink due to being homo Hypo, where a Strawberry Snow is VERY pink, like Salmon Snows. A Hypo/Straw Snow would be somewhere in between.

It is obvious that Coral Snows (Hypo Snow) and Salmon Snows (Straw Snow) have been mixed together in the beginning. This would produced Hypo/Straw Snows. When a Hypo/Straw Snow is bred to any other Corn, 50% will be het for Straw and 50% het for Hypo. In Don’s example of Straw being dominant to wild type above, I guess it is possible for Straw to be dominant when Anery is expressed, but I doubt it. The Snow in that case would have to be a Hypo/Straw Snow. It is much more likely that a dominant gene such as Red Factor or Red Coat are the cause of 50% pink Anerys.

If Red Factor or Red Coat are dominant, a Het Red Factor bred to any Corn would produced 50% Het Red Factor (Red or Pink) and 50% Normal, just like when we are breeding Het Tesseras which are dominant. Just about all Tesseras are Het Tessera, not homo Tessera.

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Thanks, Joe

The one thing I didn't know about either of the Anery corns I used to get the 50% pink Anery corns in each F1 brood, was what other mutations they had in tow (if any). My primary point was to let everyone know that I have bred ghosts for nearly 20 years and I never once saw that Hypo A caused pink/coral in the snow products of those pairings. I didn't want people to take because Walter identified that Hypo was in the Coral Snow I loaned him, it meant that Hypo A can cause snows to be pink/coral. Hence, I didn't want people to think the words CORAL SNOW mean HYPO A SNOW. That is not the case, and would be a bad reason to distinguish that line as CORALS (by name). As you say, some other mutation is in the mix. Likely, Red Mask/Coat??

There are so many twists and turns in these pink snakes, it makes me dizzy, but all of you who know me, understand that it doesn't take much to make my head spin - when talking about pink corns. If they helped keep the lights on and the mouse bills paid, I'd apply more resources to unravel the Coral mystery, but there're just too many other fish to fry. Ones that'll keep the lights on.

As I said before, another reason I haven't wanted to make more of the pink corns is cuz of the confusion (mostly on my part). When I don't know what makes a morph tick, I prefer not to produce it. Not until all the kinks are straightened out, that is.

My main damage control intent was to stop people from thinking that just because Walter determined that my Coral Snow was a Hypo A homozygote, didn't mean the Hypo A mutation caused the uncharacteristic pink coloration (relative to typical Snows). We all know how these rumors can catch fire and burn out of control. Some keep burning, long after their origins are proven incorrect. I don't want people to be disappointed after three or more years of adding Hypo A to their Snow projects, and not getting pink Snows. Walter and I were around when this whole mess started. Back when we actually thought Hypo A caused snows to be pink. Perhaps it's like taking two medicines to get well. When you get well, you don't know which cured you. Since so many other mutations are hiding in our corns these days, it's not always easy to sort out what causes unexpected or atypical results.

It's a shame Marsha (Poppy) can't help us right now. She said she isolated all the gene mutations that caused shades of pink/coral (in the three popular pink/coral snow lines). She even identified the distinctive base colors that identified each; Neon, Champagne, and Salmon. Wish she could chime in, but she's SO busy.

Don

Anery Variations from the "Coral Line"

All of these Anery types derived from subsequent generations of the first "Coral Snows" I got from Jim Stelpflug back in the 1990s. Is it any wonder I don't want to dedicate all the space necessary to figure out what gives each of them their pink tones? I think this may be one of those situations where more than one mutation may be hiding in some of these? Remember, Jim made most of his Anery, Ghost, and Snow corns with Strawberries.

SODERBERGD said:

Thanks, Joe

The one thing I didn't know about either of the Anery corns I used to get the 50% pink Anery corns in each F1 brood, was what other mutations they had in tow (if any). My primary point was to let everyone know that I have bred ghosts for nearly 20 years and I never once saw that Hypo A caused pink/coral in the snow products of those pairings. I didn't want people to take because Walter identified that Hypo was in the Coral Snow I loaned him, it meant that Hypo A can cause snows to be pink/coral. Hence, I didn't want people to think the words CORAL SNOW mean HYPO A SNOW. That is not the case, and would be a bad reason to distinguish that line as CORALS (by name). As you say, some other mutation is in the mix. Likely, Red Mask/Coat??

There are so many twists and turns in these pink snakes, it makes me dizzy, but all of you who know me, understand that it doesn't take much to make my head spin - when talking about pink corns. If they helped keep the lights on and the mouse bills paid, I'd apply more resources to unravel the Coral mystery, but there're just too many other fish to fry. Ones that'll keep the lights on.

As I said before, another reason I haven't wanted to make more of the pink corns is cuz of the confusion (mostly on my part). When I don't know what makes a morph tick, I prefer not to produce it. Not until all the kinks are straightened out, that is.

My main damage control intent was to stop people from thinking that just because Walter determined that my Coral Snow was a Hypo A homozygote, didn't mean the Hypo A mutation caused the uncharacteristic pink coloration (relative to typical Snows). We all know how these rumors can catch fire and burn out of control. Some keep burning, long after their origins are proven incorrect. I don't want people to be disappointed after three or more years of adding Hypo A to their Snow projects, and not getting pink Snows. Walter and I were around when this whole mess started. Back when we actually thought Hypo A caused snows to be pink. Perhaps it's like taking two medicines to get well. When you get well, you don't know which cured you. Since so many other mutations are hiding in our corns these days, it's not always easy to sort out what causes unexpected or atypical results.

It's a shame Marsha (Poppy) can't help us right now. She said she isolated all the gene mutations that caused shades of pink/coral (in the three popular pink/coral snow lines). She even identified the distinctive base colors that identified each; Neon, Champagne, and Salmon. Wish she could chime in, but she's SO busy.

Don

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Again, thanks for the post Don. I'm starting to get a headache with all of this now and trying to figure out the BEST and LESS confusing way to lable/market these pink snakes I have here.

Not only the ones that came from your "Pink" Snow, but now even the Salmons I got from Jim. It's seems now the terms CORAL & SALMON are now becoming more synonymous to ingredients rather than appearence as it did year ago :headbang:

Joe's input really made alot of sense to me as well.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

My turn.
I've decided to sit here on the naturalistic style poly-resin bench under the ficus tree on the side of the stage & observe how this one plays out.

SODERBERGD said:

All of these Anery types derived from subsequent generations of the first "Coral Snows" I got from Jim Stelpflug back in the 1990s. Is it any wonder I don't want to dedicate all the space necessary to figure out what gives each of them their pink tones? I think this may be one of those situations where more than one mutation may be hiding in some of these? Remember, Jim made most of his Anery, Ghost, and Snow corns with Strawberries.

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HOLY CRAP !!! That IS a huge variation to be derived from one line.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

ecreipeoj said:

I am not sure about Hypo A and Strawberry, but they seem to be co-dominant like Amel and Ultra, with the phenotype of a Hypo A/ Strawberry being half way in-between the two morphs. Hypos are orange and Strawberries are red. Hypo/Strawberries are orange/red. Now when we apply this to Snows, I agree with Don, that Hypo does not cause pink coloraton. A Hypo Snow would not be pink due to being homo Hypo, where a Strawberry Snow is VERY pink, like Salmon Snows. A Hypo/Straw Snow would be somewhere in between. .

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I agree & this is where I think the Coral snow fits in. A slightly subdued blended look.

Thanks Don & Joe for your posts.

Hopefully Marsha will post her findings when she has time.

Sorry for the two deleted post above, I was having trouble getting the quote to show up properly!

It's no JOKE . . .

Walter Smith said:

Again, thanks for the post Don. I'm starting to get a headache with all of this now and trying to figure out the BEST and LESS confusing way to lable/market these pink snakes I have here.

Not only the ones that came from your "Pink" Snow, but now even the Salmons I got from Jim. It's seems now the terms CORAL & SALMON are now becoming more synonymous to ingredients rather than appearence as it did year ago :headbang:

Joe's input really made alot of sense to me as well.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!

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I jokingly tell folks that I pity the next generation of corn snake breeders, but it's NOT a joke. It's about to get very very confusing. We're on the cusp of having dozens (if not hundreds) of parallel phenotypes for non-allelic genotypes.

I guess it could be worse. At least we don't have to wait 340 day (gestation period for most horses) for breeding trials, AND we get more than one foal from our trials. That, and look how much longer some animals take to reach sexual maturity? I guess there's a bright side to any potential tragedy?

Don

SODERBERGD said:

All of these Anery types derived from subsequent generations of the first "Coral Snows" I got from Jim Stelpflug back in the 1990s. Is it any wonder I don't want to dedicate all the space necessary to figure out what gives each of them their pink tones? I think this may be one of those situations where more than one mutation may be hiding in some of these? Remember, Jim made most of his Anery, Ghost, and Snow corns with Strawberries.

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I don't have anything useful to add, but I like the really dark one the best, and the really light one the second best!