Getting out of snakes...

Hey guys...
I'm kinda at a crossroads here and trying to figure out what to do. What'd be best for me and for my animals.

Basically I feel like breeding and selling snakes to the public is just too much. Too much stress, too much work, little reward. I still like snakes. I think breeding them and seeing what pops out and figuring out the genetics is hella fun. But starting them up, going to shows and selling so few for so little, taking all the photos for sales online, worrying about how they do once they get to their new homes... worrying if they don't do well if it's your fault or not and you don't want to take the chance...

Honestly the straw that broke the camel's back was I traded some baby corns and some cash for a male woma at a show a month ago. He seemed clean but now he's covered in mites. Just one more thing I have to deal with while school is more intense than ever. And I'm not sure what the point is. For a while I thought the point was to provide really nice, clean, quality pets, but so few people seem to care. You get a snake with mites and get told "this is common for snakes!".

So anyway, I don't think I want to do it anymore. But I'm attached to some of the animals I have. And I still find hatching out babies fun. At this point, I think, definitely no new snakes. But I'm having a hard time deciding to sell off all mine for sure. I don't know, the other thought is to maybe try breeding and just selling them all, out of the egg, to a wholesaler. Does anyone do that? Can one establish a relationship with someone who is sure to buy them all? At this point I almost don't care about price as long as it covers food and potential vet bills.

I'm venting a bit. I'm curious if anyone else is feeling burned out, and what they've done about it. And if you've ever decided to get out of snakes, how you did it, and how you felt about it after.

Get out of cornsnakes. At the show this weekend, I think I saw one corn snake out of the PILES of babies and dozens of adults/subadults leave the show with someone different from the one who brought it in. Milksnakes and kingsnakes, however, sold like hotcakes and so did leopard gecko/crested morphs and ball python morphs under $200.

Teddy Roosevelt said:

Get out of cornsnakes. At the show this weekend, I think I saw one corn snake out of the PILES of babies and dozens of adults/subadults leave the show with someone different from the one who brought it in. Milksnakes and kingsnakes, however, sold like hotcakes and so did leopard gecko/crested morphs and ball python morphs under $200.

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Thanks man... I don't really want to get into anything else though. But yeah it's depressing how many adult cornsnakes I see for sale at shows for under $50.
It's just hard to quit an addiction, eh? I have these babies I was growing up for projects and I'm not ready to part with them before I've tried it...
I guess there's a couple of adults I don't think I'd regret parting with but how hard do I want to try to get a fair price for them? Or should I just say @#@ it and walk away? ...of course I need to quarantine them all for a while anyway. Arg.

I think that a common mistake for some is that they buy allot of animals, and then pair too many pairs in a single year- and then they end up being overrun with babies.
Cornsnakes are relatively high maintenance snakes- they poop allot, and they feed more frequently than larger constrictors.
I doubt I would have had the patience to care for more than 10 corns.

It's better to start small and see how it goes.

Corns aren't high on the market, so I agree with getting out of breeding them and getting into something else. Baby kings of some sorts seem to easily go for 60 dollars. BP morphs (not including wild/normal) are no less than 100 dollars (pastel).

Heck, try geckos! Not just leos, but fat tails (similar to leos but fewer and more expensive morphs and harder to breed), tokays (misunderstood), house and panther geckos, ect! You could even try chams and small monitors if you have the room and availability to care for them.

Reptiles are a huge group. Toss us some of your unwanted corns for money or trade, and try something else.

I have to disagree a bit on the approach suggested here.
These are living breathing animals... I don't think a person should switch reptiles according to how the market looks like- unless there's an insane permanent shift, for instance, total banning of species.

How can long term projects continue if people simply switch every time the market seems low?
There will always be better, and worse times. Only those who stick through the hardships and continue develop their stock- will have a chance at being a prominent figure(recognized breeder for specific species) and eventually turn a decent buck.

If we're talking about making a profit... well, there -are- better, more reliable ways to make it. I don't think that a different species will really give you anything- bear in mind that by the time you breed your own animals, it'll be a whole different market out there

I've been doing this for a while - I did start small and go slow. Just seems like it ain't much fun anymore... can't put my finger on it exactly. Maybe I've just got less time and other priorities now

Kathey Love coined the term "burnout"- when you're in such a state that the hobby is no longer fun but a chore.
Indeed selling some snakes would be your best bet

I'm also getting a bit worried about the amount of baby's I have still left (probably 50 out of 75) and getting bored with replacing adds when they have dropped too far in the list. Even 3 adult females, of which 2 proven and young are not taken of my hands as fast as expected. My prices surely are very reasonable and they look way better/healthier on the pics then many I see in other people's ads. I just hope some whole saler appears at my stand or in my inbox to help me out for a large part. At the other hand, so far I have always (since 2005) been able to keep the snakes I needed for my favorite projects while dealing with left over baby's. It just might be the first year now I have to make very hard choices.... stop projects I really like or (temporarily) stop breeding.

Basically I feel like breeding and selling snakes to the public is just too much. Too much stress, too much work, little reward.

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I tend to think that asking the question is almost giving yourself the answer. In order to feel like that, you have to be approaching the burnout Oren referred to above. Best to deal with the problem now rather than wait until you get yourself (and possibly the snakes) in a major mess. If I'm honest, I feel much the same way.

If I were in your shoes, a planned, gradual sell-off (maybe just cutting down until you have the number that you feel comfortable with as "keepers" rather than "breeders") is what I'd go for.

Just seems like it ain't much fun anymore... can't put my finger on it exactly. Maybe I've just got less time and other priorities now

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TBH I breathed a sigh of relief this year when my local reptile shop said that the market was no good and they wouldn't be buying hatchlings from me this year. I hadn't realised what a chore hatchling season had become over the years and how much I was starting to dread it. I honestly can't see me breeding again in the next few years unless the market picks up and my finances urgently need the boost. I don't really think I'll miss it.

Can one establish a relationship with someone who is sure to buy them all?

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In my experience, no. Any organisation - even a wholesaler - is hostage to the market the same as the rest of us. My local reptile shop supplies other shops around the UK and has taken every hatchling I've produced for several years (and sometimes asked for more). However, this year they knew in advance that they just couldn't shift Corns and thankfully told me so before egg-laying started. All of this year's eggs went straight in the freezer then the bin.

Even the most reliable and conscientious purchaser can't take on stock they they know they won't sell. I still have four 09s that I can't even give my local shop for free - they'd just sit in their tanks eating food and costing money.

I've been in your shoes once already. I cut way back last year because I saw the writing on the wall in terms of the market dropping. I almost didn't breed at all this year, but there were a few things I wanted to produce. I haven't even tried to sell this year's babies yet. I've don't have many anyway. I've got very certain things I want to focus on, but I may not breed again for a couple years. The market is fickle. I don't enjoy my snake room duties nearly as much as in the past, but its a little getaway from the rest of the world so I make the most of it. I would recommend cutting back to what you want to keep, perhaps breed in a few years' time and call it good.

I reached burnout phase with cornsnakes. After having over 100 babies, and NONE selling...I gave them away, along with all the adults. I had clutches of lavendars, anerys, charcoals, amels, snows, ghosts, and all motley and/or stripe. Couldn't sell them.

I ended up giving them all away to the local shops and families looking for snakes. I'm down to 1 cornsnake, Sammy Snake, my daughter's snake, whome we adore.

In the end, a "fair price" is exactly what I got for my babies and breeders. I got peace of mind. I lost a TON of money, but I got my sanity, and I can now enjoy my kings and boas, without the workload of 100+ corns.

"Fair price" is a relative term. In my case, their worth vs. their cost, both financially and physically, was not enough to keep them around to try and get a good price for them. Giving the whole lot away was the easiest, fastes, and most sane decision for me. I hope you can find that "fair price" for your own snakes.

Good Luck!

Kokopelli said:

I have to disagree a bit on the approach suggested here.
These are living breathing animals... I don't think a person should switch reptiles according to how the market looks like- unless there's an insane permanent shift, for instance, total banning of species.

How can long term projects continue if people simply switch every time the market seems low?
There will always be better, and worse times. Only those who stick through the hardships and continue develop their stock- will have a chance at being a prominent figure(recognized breeder for specific species) and eventually turn a decent buck.

If we're talking about making a profit... well, there -are- better, more reliable ways to make it. I don't think that a different species will really give you anything- bear in mind that by the time you breed your own animals, it'll be a whole different market out there

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In this case, the corn market is simply oversaturated and if he likes breeding and selling for a little cash on the side, and wants to continue to do so without a huge migraine every hatchling season, switching the animals he breeds is his best option. Everyone and their brother has a cornsnake and most every booth at the show I went to had literally piles of hatchlings in tanks and tupperware, the most expensive one (including morphs) I saw was a $50 adult ghost. In a few years, what will likely happen is that, with the exception of dedicated breeders like Carol, Kathy, Don, etc... people with interests or priorities in other animals with just stop breeding corns, and then their value will start to go up again because they'll be less common.

Teddy Roosevelt said:

In this case, the corn market is simply oversaturated and if he likes breeding and selling for a little cash on the side, and wants to continue to do so without a huge migraine every hatchling season, switching the animals he breeds is his best option. Everyone and their brother has a cornsnake and most every booth at the show I went to had literally piles of hatchlings in tanks and tupperware, the most expensive one (including morphs) I saw was a $50 adult ghost. In a few years, what will likely happen is that, with the exception of dedicated breeders like Carol, Kathy, Don, etc... people with interests or priorities in other animals with just stop breeding corns, and then their value will start to go up again because they'll be less common.

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That's because corns are incredibly easy to breed. You don't even have to try. All you have to do is feed them, and make sure you have 1.1. Put them together and you WILL end up with hatchlings. This saturates the market, and exponentially decreases their market-value.

On the other hand...boas, kings, and BPs all require a certain amount of care to result in successful breeding, whether due to their tendency to eat their potential mates, their tendency to refuse to cooperate with feeding schedules, or just a generally difficult breeding habit. It's much more difficult to get these animals to accept their chosen mates, and MUCH more difficult to establish a productive breeding program. This keeps their market value much higher.

Unfortunately, I think corns have seen their "hey day" of breeding. Even new genes and combinations aren't getting their percieved worth. Sure, it has a little to do with the economy. But who wants to pay $1,000 for a homozygous animal when they can pay half that for a PAIR of het animals, and be fairly certain that they will have a successful breeding?

It's really simple supply and demand. The more easily bred animals are worth far less money. Super-saturated supply + even demand = low market value.

Hey Adie, I'm sorry about your mite problem. That can make anyone feel burnout! I know school is getting increasingly more intense for you and what little free time you have you probably just want to relax, not clean and feed snakes. This isn't necessarily an all of nothing kind of question. You can pare down to your favorite animals and continue. Decide what is manageable within you present life structure and go with it. I do a lot of shows and "yes" the market is terrible for just about everything; not just corn snakes. So switching to something else just isn't the answer.
I've always thought that people who try to make a living at breeding and selling animals were in for a rude shock. One would have to run a huge enterprise with many large wholesale contacts both here and overseas in order to make a living wage. The hobby breeder is at a distinct disadvantage especially in corn snakes which are so easy to produce and therefore have such a low sale price. At this point it would cease to be fun for me.
Take a deep breath. It is a great time of year to do thinking while the animals are in brumation. The sad fact that the economy is what it is makes getting out a long process. There just are just too few buyers for what you have to sell.
As for the mites, Sevin dust works exceptionally well at quickly eradicating the issue. I've used in when I worked at the pet store with no ill effects. You are welcome to contact me and talk any time. If you come up for the Wheaton show or Tinley be sure to stop by and chat.
Best of Luck,
Terri

Add me to the list of people who have gotten out. Twice, in fact. But the reptile bug always hits me again sooner or later. I've tinkered with chameleons lately (a LOT of work, but rewarding), and got into Tesseras just have something new. The problem is getting in too deep, for me anyway. I think you can have a full-time job and a collection of about 20 adults and not get overwhelmed, if you don't breed everything! I have kings, milks, corns, and others I didn't pair up the last two years. The market sure seems bad here, I'm not even selling many cheap snakes through my shop these days. I'm sure it will eventually rebound, but I don't expect prices to increase. If you aren't enjoying your hobby, you need to ponder what would make it enjoyable. Whether or not getting out is the best option, only you can decide. But I have had some heavy sellers remorse both times I practically eliminated my collection. Be sure that's what you want before you take that step.

I suppose in some ways I'm lucky that I've never HAD to give away snakes before O-o My main concern as far as pricing goes is I think it provides some "insurance" that they are going to someone who will place some value on them.

I too already cut way down on breeding this year, basically confining it to a few test projects. I could have had 100s of babies but that was the last thing I waned

One thing that's useful is that I'm pretty good at imagining myself a year from now, and saying "would I regret not having ___ snakes?" I'm pretty sure I could cut my adults in half and just feel relief, even if some of them are kind of unique and cool. But there's no real emotional attachment to them. I just gotta stay out of the trap of "oh hey it would be really cool to produce ____" because, again, why? XP

Thanks Terri, I was thinking I'd love to chat with you a bit. I don't know if I can make it to wheaton Saturday but I sure would like to (I want to give this woma back to the guy ASAP, even if he will only give me the cash back... he offered to give me the cash and babies back but honestly the last thing I want is 16 questionable babies)

As far as the mites go the guy was quarantined thankfully, and I've ordered provent-a-mite... I'll also be soaking all my snakes just in case. No signs of them on any other animals but I gotta sit on them a while to be sure anyway. It's just something I really didn't need to deal with right now and school will suffer a bit to make sure my animals don't.

tyflier said:

That's because corns are incredibly easy to breed. You don't even have to try. All you have to do is feed them, and make sure you have 1.1. Put them together and you WILL end up with hatchlings. This saturates the market, and exponentially decreases their market-value.

On the other hand...boas, kings, and BPs all require a certain amount of care to result in successful breeding, whether due to their tendency to eat their potential mates, their tendency to refuse to cooperate with feeding schedules, or just a generally difficult breeding habit. It's much more difficult to get these animals to accept their chosen mates, and MUCH more difficult to establish a productive breeding program. This keeps their market value much higher.

Unfortunately, I think corns have seen their "hey day" of breeding. Even new genes and combinations aren't getting their percieved worth. Sure, it has a little to do with the economy. But who wants to pay $1,000 for a homozygous animal when they can pay half that for a PAIR of het animals, and be fairly certain that they will have a successful breeding?

It's really simple supply and demand. The more easily bred animals are worth far less money. Super-saturated supply + even demand = low market value.

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100% in agreement with you there.

However, while I believe that everything you said is true, there's a bit more to it. I believe that like everything, it goes in cycles. At some point, you'll reach a level of saturation, which is bound to decline because less and less breeders will decide to breed corns, until high end morphs will become less common and again you will see a rise.

Also. Breeders like SMR and other "big" names will likely remain "on the charts" even though there's less demand, because their name precedes them. To reach that point, it took allot of effort, a some would say, luck. But had they quit every time things were rough... they wouldn't have lasted either.

When many people buy an animal, they also buy the "name" behind it, and the relationship with the breeder- some names are bound to pop in a discussion about corns, and so on.

How likely is everyone to reach the same point? I guess that not many. But that's how it is in most fields I guess. All we can do is try and catch up with our dreams... I was once told that aiming high towards the stars is always a good bet, because even if you do miss, you still can make it pretty high.

I had a decent sized collection here for a while and I had a life altering event take place and now I have 6 snakes. I think back and get really sad, when I think about this snake or that snake but I know they are in a much better place. Some of my snakes are waiting to be shipped and its hard to not always be there and for your animals. I get to see them 2 times a week. It is so hard to do, but it is the animal that will be in a better place. Certain snakes will be in a different place until I am on my own. It's hard bro, but hang in there.

Not only do surplus animals not sell well, but I have to wonder what happens to them, eventually. What about all the normal corns that no one wants to pay good money for? How many of them end up as food for kings? How many end up set loose into the "wild"--many of which probably don't survive? How many beautiful morphs are out there that on one wants to spend hundreds of dollars on? Lots, I'm thinkin'.

So if you're not really "into" it, for whatever reason, I see no shame in downsizing, not breeding, and perhaps keeping only pets. I certainly won't breed mine (except maybe a rainbow boa someday). I've seen too much of what happens to unwanted animals, and most of it ain't a pretty sight..... So if it's no longer satisfying, and has become a chore and a worry, simply don't breed! Think of all the future unwanted babies who won't be born to perhaps die unhappy deaths. If you really aren't all that into it, let the "big names" produce. There will always be corn snake morphs out there for people who want them. A few less in the marketplace can only do them good.