THE THINGS PEOPLE DO...I NEED TO VENT

Last summer two youngs boys and their parents came to PJC Reptiles to pick out 2 hatchlings. I asked them a few questions and found they wanted to cohab them in a 55 gallon fish tank. I was a bit upset but advised them NOT to so and if that was what they wanted to do, they need the snakes to be the same sex. Offer many hides and water bowls and it would best if they divided the tank from the start. I warned about escapes and such.

Three weeks later they called me. One the males got out. They were using the "thick medical books" to hold the cover on. I told them the snake just might appear in time and give it a few days. They wanted another snake right then and there. So they came back. Needless to say, they went home with a female. Much against my advise.

I got a call Tuesday afternoon...one of the snakes had laid eggs. In fact, 3 of them, in 3 different places in the tank. They asked me what to do. Glad they couldnt see my facial expression. I told them they had a few options and it was up to them. One, they could just let the eggs go and dispose of them if they had no intentions of incubating and raising the hatchlings. Two, get an incubator and do some reading and I would help the best I could. Three, I could come check the eggs and see if by chance that they were good eggs. I told them to take a few hours to discuss what he and his wife and boys wanted to do.

They called back and she has 5 eggs now. I asked if she looked like she might have anymore. I was told, yeah, maybe one, but that was ok. They asked if they could bring the eggs over and have me incubate them. I told them to bring the mother snake as well. Once she was here, I almost cried. She is not a very big girl for 15 months old. But no sickly either. BUT she did have 3 more very big eggs left in her. I showed them so and told them she should spend at least the night here so I could keep an eye on her. I didnt want to get into all the nasty things that could possibly go wrong in front of the two boys.

Wednesday afternoon he came by with the boys and wanted to take her home. I told them that the males will breed her to death if she goes back in with them. They said they were heading to the Kennel Shop to get a UTH and a few other things. I offered to give they what I had to help them out but they said no. I gave her a small meal and she ate. I told them to baby her and give a good week before they do any handling. Just offer her small meals a bit more often so she can gain her weight back. They have no idea what they want me to do with these eggs. I offered to hatch them out and they could sell/gift/giveaway the babies or I could sell them. I do know the parents of the mother and all we are looking at are normals and amels and possibly Okeetees and ROs.

I am just so...disgusted I guess would be the only word I could say here. I told them I would need to know by the time they hatch what I am doing because that puts 12 more babies in my care to feed and such. :sidestep:

Sorry, I just need to vent. Please do not cohab! This lil girl was not ready what this and I will be very surprised if she and the eggs make it. At this time, all looks ok. But my heart was broken. Just another example of ........I best stop now, I am getting upset over this.

If this can help just one person learn a valuable lesson, I guess my rant was worth it.

PJ

WOW I'm shocked you sold them the snakes in the first place knowing their intention to cohab especially a male and female. It's very nice of you to offer to help and hatch the eggs, but what if something goes wrong while the mother or hatchlings are in your care? Do they seem sue happy or the type that would slander you even though this situation was completely their fault? Your a whole lot nicer than me I wouldn't have sold them 2 snakes without 2 cages to begin with, but I guess now all you can do is help for the snakes sake. Do you think they really did get an extra cage now, or were just saying that so you's be quiet? People never cease to amaze me I had a woman want to buy a crested from me and house it with her iguana for a few weeks until she got paid- I refused the sale needless to say, but its funny how people want animals, but don't want to take care of them the way their care is meant to be. I hope all ends well for that little girl

I have 2 snakes that I previously cohabbed (I know, very stupid), one of which is pregnant now. I posted online with my dilemma and got very helpful advice. Needless to say I separated them immediately, and they will certainly stay that way. My female is much older than the 15mo girl you mentioned (roughly 3-1/2, 4yrs old), and has really good size to her (3, 3-1/2ft). So although cohabbing those 2 were foolish of me, I think all will turn out well, considering. I've read up on breeding since I've owned corn snakes, but have gotten even better advice here. I feel I'm as ready as I could be for my first time breeding, especially due to cohabbing. I feel bad for having done so, but accept responsiblity for cohabbing and I have really been working my butt off making sure my female is well taken care of through this process.
It's too bad that those people haven't listened to your advice, I really try to take in all of the information from professionals that I can. I think you did an incredibly generous thing by not only giving them advice, but offering to take the female in, and possibly hatch any fertile eggs for them. It's that type of compassion for the animal that I think is lost with some breeders. It's too bad they don't realize how hard it is to find someone so willing to help, because none of this benefits you. I can completely understand your frustration!!!

Unfortunately this is something we see all too often over here as well, my local rep guy has people come in the shop quite frequently during breeding season with very similar problems and all too often they just don't want to hear what you are telling them unless it's what they want to hear :headbang:

I think you've done everything you possibly could have with these people. I can truly understand you needing to vent, venting can be a sanity saver

First off...I did NOT sell them a 1.1 to begin with. One escaped and the boys really wanted another one. Not my fault they wanted a female. I did tell all the pros and cons fully. I even offered to "give" them what they needed. I even told them to DIVIDE the 55 from the start with the two males. Who am I do decide who is lying to me about housing a snake. The escapee did come back. So I do know that they ended up putting all 3 in a 55. I again told them to keep the female separate if that was all they could do. But what was I to do? Go repo my snakes they paid for? The mother has gone home and they know the risks! I even fed her. They dont seems to really care one way or the other about the eggs.

If they feel the need to "sue" me over 2 normals het amel and 1 amel, let them. I didnt do anything wrong. Just learning not to sell locally for this reason. I have a female adult I wont breed and she shouldnt be bred so I wont sell her because I just dont trust the buyer not to breed her.

Thank you for your concern. I dont think they are nasty people and they are well to do and easy going. What a lesson I am learning now. Thank you.

PJ

Gee i wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers. I know you can't repo the snakes or prevent an owner from taking poor care of them. Even those who present themselves in a knowledgeable manner can miscare for an animal whether intentional or not. My point was your nicer than me thats all. I hope all the animals I've sold are cared for appropriately- I'm not naive enough to say this is a fact though- I just hope. Its a shame you gave them all the best info in the world and they disregarded it. Some breeders wouldn't have said a thing about cohabbing when they mentioned it, or helped them with this situation- your behavior towards them is commendable to say the least. I would have blown my stack and freaked on them so if my post seemed judgemental it wan't meant to be

PJ, it's people like you that have made me fall in love with this community. You are obviously going above and beyond in this situation. I've never bred nor sold, so I have no basis to offer advice, but I DO commend you on your integrity. (((PJ)))

Thank you Danielle. I do understand where you were coming from. The whole situation just has me upset and I really needed to vent in my safe zone of CS.com. If I came off upset with you, I am truly sorry. Having the passion for animals that most of the us here do, high emotions can come over a bit wrong a times.

Again, I am sorry.

PJ

It's cool I would be needing to rant now too- like I said I've had my share of maddening cutomers and undertand when you take the time, effort, heart, and money to breed an animal you love as much as life and a customer screws up like this it hurts. You did all you could and then some unfortunately their choice was the wrong and they knew this ahead of time. I aked about suing because my neighbor took in a trouble leopard for a forum friend who had been feeding it vegetables, lol. By the time he got there he was too weak to catch food or even drink and even though she hand fed the leopard died within 48 hours. She contacted them right away and told them what happened which sparked their threats of a lawsuit and her being trashed on the forum she belonged too. People I guess are like any other animal and have their flaws it just sucks when their flaws potentially harm an animal. Good luck

Uh-oh i am cohabbing my females at this point cuz i do not have a tank on handy right now is this bad???????

See thats the kinda' stuff that really ticks me off..
I HATE IGNORANT people..
They dont know...
......dont try to learn .....
and do want to hear that they F**ked up when the SH!T hits the fan!
...and then on top of that..come to you wanting answers...and then dont even take the help when it is offered.

I have a friend like that..the only thing that scares me is..that she is dealing with a Human life......not that I value too many humans over animals at all..and especially Unborn humans at that...
But I do understand the stress to a degree, of what you are going through...
:blowup:
I just dont even know anymore PJ..people are getting worse as the years go by.......I feel fortunate enough to be so close with you...
......................(sigh)...sometimes I just dont know what I'd do......
................as I am always learning....
...BUT FOR HEVANS F***IN' SAKES TAKE THE ADVICE OF AN EXPERIENCED PERSON....(especially in this case)...IF YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!!!!....IDIOTS!!...I am sorry..but IDIOTS!!...unch:

( sorry to add to your rant.and sorry to come accross mean...(BUT SERIOUSLY GUYS...I mean.. come! on!).I think its all these backed up emotions for my own issues..)

~~LOve you PJ~
~~Amanda

Chrissie&Coral&Lilly said:

Uh-oh i am cohabbing my females at this point cuz i do not have a tank on handy right now is this bad???????

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Yes cohabbing is bad and eventually will result in one becomming food for the other no matter how well fed they are. Of course the one doing the eating may die as well from the size of the meal. Also never feed two snakes together. Snakes are just not social animals and for their safety need their own cages.

PJ, did I ever tell you that you are the best?? You are an amazing woman to do the lengths that you have gone with these people.

Now lucky it wasnt me. lol I am sure Jay said the same thing.

Personally, I would either hatch the eggs and say they went bad. or Toss them and say they went bad. But to me, I wouldnt give it them back to those people. Its up to you, but personally, after a year, your personal support is gone with these people, you can not warranty a pet after a year.

danielle said:

Yes cohabbing is bad and eventually will result in one becomming food for the other no matter how well fed they are. Of course the one doing the eating may die as well from the size of the meal. Also never feed two snakes together. Snakes are just not social animals and for their safety need their own cages.

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Right now they are way to small and i know the whole 'never feed two snakes together' i got that lesson right away, i did ATON of research and most of them said that corn snakes are realtily social snakes and are saftly kept year roung in trios of pairs I got that from 'Reptiles, Amphibians,and Invertebrates an Identification and care guide' I am wondering if they know what they are talking about now:eek1:

Wow PJ. It's a sad situation. Looks like you did every thing possible to fix the problems. They just don't care. Sounds like they care more about their spoiled brat kids showing off and looking "cool" to their friends than they do about the snakes. I don't think I will ever understand why people don't have their children learn at least a few things about a pet before they get it. You're right, we can't control what happens to the snakes once they leave our care. All we can do is give advice and hope for the best. It's people like you with your love, compassion and devotion that makes this hobby so great. You did your best sweety.

IMO, those eggs are starting to look bad. Don't you think? I just don't think they will make it. :dgrin:

I am sorry this really has nothing to do with snakes..but It came to mind while reading this thread and well..I am bored and wanted to share..hahaha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJQFf0qj9Nk&NR=1

"You gotta keep'm separated"

~~Amanda

so I added my own lyrics to make it kinda make sense I guess...I know I am a dweebe...and wtf am I doing still awake..off to bed.....:roflmao:

"You gotta keep'm separated

They're like the latest fashion
They're like a spreading disease
The kids are strappin' on their way to the classroom
Getting (corn snakies) with the greatest of ease
The gangs stake out (breeder) locale
And if they catch you slippin' then it's all over pal
If one guy's (snakes) and the other's don't mix
They're gonna (screw) it up
(screw) it up x3

Hey, man you talkin' back to me
Take him out

You gotta keep'em separated
Hey, man you disrespecting me
take him out

You gotta keep'em separated
Hey, they don't pay no mind
If you're under 18 you won't be doing any time
Hey, come out and play

By the time you hear the (phone ring)
It's already too late
One goes to the morgue and the other (pet store)
One guy's wasted and the other's a waste
It goes down the same as the thousand before
No one's getting smarter
No one's learning the score
Your never ending spree of death and violence and hate
Is gonna tie your own rope
Tie your own rope
Tie your own

Hey, man you disrespecting me
take him out

You gotta keeep'em separated
Hey, man you talkin' back to me
take him out

You gotta keep'em separated
Hey, don't pay no mind
If you're under 18 you won't be doing any time
Hey, come out and play

It goes down the same as the thousand before
No one's getting smarter
No one's learning the score
Your never ending spree of death and violence and hate
Is gonna tie your own rope
Tie your own rope
Tie your own

Hey, man you talkin' back to me
take him out

You gotta keep'em separated
Hey, man you disrespecting me
take him out

You gotta keeep'em separated
Hey, don't pay no mind
If your under 18 you won't be doing any time
Hey, come out and play"

The offspring "Come out and play"

Chrissie&Coral&Lilly said:

Right now they are way to small and i know the whole 'never feed two snakes together' i got that lesson right away, i did ATON of research and most of them said that corn snakes are realtily social snakes and are saftly kept year roung in trios of pairs I got that from 'Reptiles, Amphibians,and Invertebrates an Identification and care guide' I am wondering if they know what they are talking about now:eek1:

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Is that a website online? Or a book? Either way I doubt that information. I've never heard anyone with actual herping experience say that it's okay to house snakes together.

And when they're small is still risky... they can STILL eat one another. My best advice to you would be to seperate them immediately. It's better to be safe than sorry.

PJ, I'm really sorry about all the trouble with this. I hope the female does okay and pulls through. Please keep us updated! *HUGS*

LBoz said:

PJ, it's people like you that have made me fall in love with this community. You are obviously going above and beyond in this situation. I've never bred nor sold, so I have no basis to offer advice, but I DO commend you on your integrity. (((PJ)))

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Ditto on what Lori said so well.
More than once I've been visiting friends in PetCo for pinks or fuzzies, and been offered adult snakes that folks "never thought would get so big". LOL.
Once a young kid and his very sweet, very well-meaning grandma tried to give me one. Maybe I should have taken it, but I didn't. Gosh. I wish I could save the world, too.......you've gone way above and beyond, PJ.

Chrissie&Coral&Lilly said:

Right now they are way to small and i know the whole 'never feed two snakes together' i got that lesson right away, i did ATON of research and most of them said that corn snakes are realtily social snakes and are saftly kept year roung in trios of pairs I got that from 'Reptiles, Amphibians,and Invertebrates an Identification and care guide' I am wondering if they know what they are talking about now:eek1:

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That information is so wrong it's criminal. Snakes are not social animals at all. They don't travel in herds in the wild. They only come together to mate. Forcing solitary animals together in a confined space can lead to stress that they can never escape from.