2000 Trans Hypo male

[Rich Z]

Aw man! The Okeetee locality argument again?

My opinion: There is no such thing as a *pure* Okeetee. Not unless you have proof of one that is living in a stump hole right on the hunt club grounds that you go visit now and again to look at. Even assuming that some "other side of the tracks" Jasper County corn isn't somewhere in it's ancestry, having the audacity to not recognize that property line and go over there searching for a mate and did the hanky panky with *your* snake's great great grandmom.

An Okeetee corn would be a product of it's environment. It has been noted that coloration of an animal can vary based on the trace elements in the food it eats. So once you remove an animal from that locality and unless you go back there to catch the food it would eat naturally, you have changed it's makeup. Once you breed a pair of them and pick out any of the babies for ANY reason, then you have applied an unnatural influence on them. What is still natural and pure about them once they have been removed from their natural and pure environment? Anything? Anything not arbitrary, that is.

I wonder if bird breeders claim localities on their critters? I would love to hear that argument!

I've got to add more smilies to this site. I miss not having the laughing smiley here.......

 

[Serpwidgets]

The Bottomline:
I believed then and I believe now that choosing to sell those animals as "pure" is flat-out deceptive. Can you provide *any* type of documentation that they are in fact "pure"?

No, I believe in truth in advertising.

The only reason I posted on this thread in the first place is that I look at the pics and the descriptions of your "pure okeetees" and believe that there is absolutely no justification for you to call them "pure".

So to sum up:

CAV calls Joe "deceptive" (and many other adjectives either directly or implied.)

CAV makes clear what his problem is: the distinction between "Okeetee" and "pure Okeetee" and says that there is absolutely no justification for you to call them "pure".

And when asked what justification there would need to be:

What documents them as "pure"? Beats me. That is a different topic that I don't even want to touch at this point!

CAV, you accused someone of being dishonest and mislabeling stuff and false advertising, yadda yadda yadda.

When asked what basis you have for calling him those things, you don't want to talk about it.

You have no justification to accuse Joe of being "flat-out deceptive."

 

[Serpwidgets]

Elrojo and others...

Can someone provide quotes from Kauffeld, or any other factual information about the origins of the term "Okeetee" as applied to cornsnakes?

I always hear people who claim the ones captured on the "hunt club" are the only Okeetees, and they act like this came directly from Kauffeld. I'd like to see what they're talking about.

 

[Rich Z]

OK, from page 227 of the chapter called "The Saga of Sandy Hill" in Carl Kauffeld's Snakes and Snake Hunting:

On the Okeetee, Corn Snakes are among the most numerous snakes and they grow to greater size and greater beauty than any I have known from elsewhere. The range of variation in color intensity and pattern, over an area of at most ten square miles, is quite amazing. Some have a ground color of mouse gray with dark scarlet blotches, others -- the prettiest -- have a rich orange ground color with vermilion blotches. It is odd that the lighter-colored snakes usually have fewer body blotches, and there is no sexual correlation so far as I can tell. In my estimation the Corn Snake is not only the most beautiful nonpoisonous snake in the United States, but in the world as a whole.

Interesting how much has been read in between the lines from that one paragraph over the years, now isn't it? I don't see a thing about thick dark borders around the blotches, do you?

 

[Chip]

Aw, you guys...

Point #1: (To serp)

No one has been able to ever tell me who coined the "Okeetee" name for these snakes. I assume some breeder or collecter did long after Kaufield published his book.

Point #2:
Everyone that gets all bent out of shape when the loality issue is raised, only has their feathers in ruffles because it somehow makes their own so-named animals suddenly inferior, should the general public (I could only wish) accept the label as meaning locality, not look. Howbout "Carolina Corn" or "Wild-type"?

Point #3
Rich, you wrote me yourself in a PM that you had no idea where you turned loose hatchling corns, "from Jersey to Fla." is a quote and "pretty much near a local highway exit" is a close paraphrase. And when I asked how many, "who knows". Let's assume it was a hundred. Or even a thousand! Bottom line is, it's not enough to EVER influence the gene pool. There are a lot of cornsnakes down there. And a female lays all those clutches her whole life to have TWO live to breeding age (to maintain population) so one has to factor in predation; ESPECIALLY of any morph. I don't buy that any of you have turned loose so many that it's corrupted the club!

Point #3
Yep, I keep the prettiest ones for holdbacks. But I also freeze all poor feeders and weak specimens. I have lots of herper friends. I can back up that claim. The weak perish, no matter how nicely they are patterned, or how much red is in the hatchling. And I don't breed for large black borders, nor do the folks previously mentioned. I get new blood every year. Give me all the grief you want, I do all I can to maintain "Okeetee" corns in the truest sense.

Believe me, I could make a lot more money with cornsnakes working with butters and lavender motleys, but I don't like them as much! This is just my passion. I love the animals that come from that area. And I will continue to produce them for folks so inclined. Not once have I attacked other's projects. I didn't slight the blue ice or trans/hypos. I hope some out there appreciate what I'm doing and I don't have to go through this every time the locality debate comes up. I'm doing right by what I (and a few others) believe.

 

[Rich Z]

Chip, I am certain this argument will still be ongoing long after we are both dead and buried. To each their own, I guess.

Hey Serp, you are the math wizard.... Given an area of 10 square miles, assuming roughly square in shape, what is the MAXIMUM distance any true Okeetee corn snake will be from the edge of it's becoming an *untrue* Okeetee when it crosses that border?

 

[Serpwidgets]

Rich, the square root of 10 is ~3.16. That would be a square where you're always closer than 1.58 miles to the edges. Isn't that pretty close to the range of a lot of males?

Elrojo, I think it's cool what you're doing. I have a lot of respect for your animals and your projects because you go balls-to-the-wall to make sure you have exactly what will live up to your ideal. My only problems are when the nutcases among the locality fans:

A- try to get all "righteous" about what they are doing, as if everyone else's corns are inherently and universally "inferior"

2- act as if it's not possible to have two definitions of the same word, and as if their definition is "the" definition. They act as if there's some kind of intrinsic and exclusive meaning to the word, they are the keepers of such meaning, and nobody else should be allowed to use "their" word in any other way.

Both of the above were clearly demonstrated in the fauna thread you linked to. (Ya, I did read the whole thread, and found it disturbing... including the one guy who seemed only interested in how he could "cover his butt" and get away with selling his normals as Okeetees.) When Darrin posted a rational explanation of the whole thing, it was completely ignored and the arrogance and bile continued unabated. IOW, the linked thread was a perfect example of why I refer to that class of extremists as "nutjobs."

I understand the frustration that comes with the "look-eetee" usage of the word, but the reality is that the mass of the market is interested in the look, and that is what they are paying for when they buy "okeetee" corns.

Being in the minority, and wanting to deal with animals that meet certain narrow criteria, and where you can't prove or disprove such criteria except through trust, that's just something that needs to be dealt with. That's true whether or not there's "another" usage, and whether or not that other usage is applied to "inferior" specimens. If the "wacko" portion of the locality fan base could just accept that and get over it, and learn to respect the fact that other people don't all value the same exact thing they do, there wouldn't be any "problem."

And even if all the "I don't care about locality" people were to suddenly agree to stop using that name and use something else instead, there will always be dishonest people willing to sell anything with the right look under that label in order to make more money. Even if you guys "won" exclusive usage of the word for the definition you prefer, the locality fans would still have to ask the same exact number and type of questions to anyone selling them "Okeetee" corns, because simply looking at them isn't sufficient "proof."

The bottom line is that nothing is being lost by people selling "Look-eetees" and there is nothing to be gained by convincing the rest of the corn hobby to stop "misusing" the word.

 

[CAV]

Nice try......

CAV, you accused someone of being dishonest and mislabeling stuff and false advertising, yadda yadda yadda.

You have no justification to accuse Joe of being "flat-out deceptive."

Sorry but once I again I disagree with you Serp. By your own narrow definitions there is no such thing as "pure". You have pointed this out over and over to the "wackos" and "nutjobs".

You can't have it both ways: If there is not a standard for evaluation, then there can be no "pure". I stand by my statement that selling them as "pure" is deceptive.

 

[CAV]

Enough is enough

Serp,

Your insistence on fueling a non-existent fire is amazing! You seem to be a smart guy but instead of discussing this like an educated adult, you have consistently resorted to name calling in an attempt to validate your position.

This discussion was never about locality vs. non-locality. It was never about the validity of a road as a boundary. It SHOULD never have been a death match to see who could "one-up" the other guy. What could have been a useful and thoughtful discussion on the labeling of sale animals has been transformed into an adolescent playground fight!

You’re "my way or the highway" attitude has overpowered any remaining desire I may have had to continue this pointless discussion. I no longer see the need to post on this subject and I am walking away. Discuss amongst yourselves........

 

[ecreipeoj]

Do Okeetee Corn Snakes exist in the wild?

I wrote this last night. Considering all the new posts, it is out of date, but I will post it anyway. I think I am done debating the issue as well. As far as the false advertising issue, I guess that is up to each of us to decide how we want to advertise and considering all of the differant points of view on this subject, you could never satisfy everybody. I will continue to call them Okeetee Corn Snakes from wild caught stock, which I consider a pure line. Pure line from where, I do not know except from Jasper County near the Okeetee Hunt Club.

Do Okeetee Corn Snake exist in the wild? My immediate answer to that questions would be, “YES”, but then I begin to think about the difference of opinions about what an Okeetee Corn Snake is. They are actually Corn Snakes Elaphe guttata guttata, and any name we put on them beyond that is descriptive in one way or another.

Where do they exist? A better question would be: Where do wild snakes from Jasper County exist with the Okeetee “Look”? I would have to think about that one for a while because I do not have any personal first hand knowledge, but I can use other peoples accounts of wild caught snakes to come to some kind of conclusion. I know they exist on the Okeetee Hunt Club. I also know that they exist around the perimeter of the Hunt Club. They must, because people discuss which side of the road they are on when the come upon them. They are obviously crawling away from or toward the Hunt Club. Collectors say things like, I wont keep anything more than a mile away from the Club or 5 miles away from the Club, depending on who you are talking to, even if it is a drop dead corn snake with the Okeetee “Look“. I have read stories of wild corn snakes being caught at gas stations in Hardeeville, SC that are “The best snake I have ever seen”. Another drop dead gorgeous corn snake with the Okeetee “Look” quite a ways from the Hunt Club. I am not sure exactly where Hardeeville is, but I think it is around 10 miles or so from the Club. Corn Snakes obviously can travel, but how far, I don’t really know. Over the span of many years, the genes of corn snakes with the Okeetee “Look” my travel a considerable distance in the wild corn snakes of Jasper County.

Who really cares? I care and so do many others. I know locally collector care. Daddy buying a corn snake for his kid at a Snake Show doesn’t care and that aspect of corn snakes sold as Okeetee Corn Snakes, will never change. Corn Snakes are going to be labeled with the Okeetee name in many different circumstances. I don’t think anybody can change that. We are now attaching other descriptive names to Elaphe guttata guttata, from Jasper County and to the descriptive name of “Okeetee” Corn Snakes from Jasper County like wild caught, pure, and locality.

When I bought my first Okeetee Corn Snakes, I did not own any others that were called Okeettee, but had bred corn snake for many years. When a guy came to my table at a snake show and we began talking about all of the different morphs of corns that I had, it was very apparent that he was very knowledgeable about genetics, but not completely familiar with the current morph of corns being produce. When he told me that he was going to produce Okeetee Corn Snakes that were from corn snakes collected around the Okeetee Hunt Club in Jasper County, well that was something that I had been wanting to obtain for a while, so I got some from him. He seemed honest and his source was reliable, so I was pretty sure that they were from wild caught stock. I did not get the name of the collector or the location of capture. To me, at the time, getting Okeetees from wild caught snakes around the Hunt Club was a pretty good thing.

For some unknown reason, I happen to be lucky and produce a new type of hypo from these Okeetee Corn Snakes that originated from wild caught snakes from Jasper County near the Hunt Club. So obviously, my interest in the topic of Okeetee Corn Snake has increased. Many people would say that it is only because of the potential financial gains from the Trans Parent Hypo Okeetees sales. I admit that I sell snakes and make money on them, but my interest in them is far greater than the amount of money that I can sell them for. I have had an interest in reptiles of all types since I was in Grade School, living in the Mojave Desert. I am not so sure how great of a money maker any new type of hypo will be considering there are others that look similar and combinations of morphs with hypo in them also look similar. These type of new morphs historically do not bring big bucks. Once the price is very close to others that look similar they will most likely sell well, but I wont be buying a new house from them. Likewise, locality collectors are not making big bucks on the offspring from the Locality collected corns snakes from the Okeetee Hunt Club. Hatchling prices are only in the range of $35 - $45, which is what a lot of other types of morphs of corns might sell for. They are obviously, not just interested in financial gains, but I think they want to make damn sure that we know the distinction from a locality collected corn from the Hunt Club and the one that daddy bought at a snake show.

Back to my first question, Do Okeetee Corn Snakes exist in the wild? I say yes, but it would seem that locality collectors feel that if they are not collected on the Hunt Club Property they are not Okeetees. So to them, the only Okeetees that exist are in captivity or I could make an argument towards that end. I can see where they are coming from that the only locality corn that you can put the Okeetee name on is one collected on the “Okeetee” Hunt Club Property, but considering how many different ways the descriptive name of Okeetee is attached to corn snakes, it causes a great deal of confusion and debate. I am not sure what value that is to them, considering that the same claim can be made by saying something like, my Okeetee Corn snakes are wild caught and the locality of capture was on Haphazard Road or something to that effect. I feel like a wild caught snake collected 5 miles from the Club that is a knock down gorgeous Okeetee Corn Snake could be called a locality Okeetee Corn Snake and have great value to someone, like myself as being a wild caught Okeetee, with the locality of capture on “Something” Road, 5 miles from the Club. Is that not a wild caught snake with locality data? I have great respect for someone who wants to only have Okeetee Corns Snakes in their collection that are locality collected on the Hunt Club. Since they are available, I have obtained some and want more.

Please Chip, If you obtain or have the chance to obtain a drop dead gorgeous Okeetee Corn snake 5 miles from the Club, offer it to me as a wild caught Okeetee Corn (Or Jasper County Corn) with the locality of capture “Here” and I will maintain the information about the locality of capture when I sell the “Pure” Okeetee offspring. “Pure” equals wild caught in this usage. A wild caught Okeetee as this, would be great to out cross my Tran Okeetees to. I can not inbreed them forever.

I just obtained some “Pure” Okeetees hatchlings from Vin and his story is attached below. I don’t know anything about Skyler Smith or Tom Chiang. I know Vin from way back when I was into Boas big time. This is about all the “Documentation” anybody gets after several generations of buyers/breeders. The story is actually very similar to the story behind the Trans Okeetees, but the names and locations have been lost. I am still going to try to go back farther and see if any more info on the line can still be recovered.

Joe,
Heres the Okeetee story.
A guy named Skylar Smith caught about 8 or 10 animals on Haphazard road in the Okeetee Hunt Club about 12 years ago.
He produced offspring from them and Sold Tom Chiang a few pairs of hatchlings.
Tom sold me 1.3 babies from one of his pairs around 5 years ago.

Vin

Are these Pure Okeetee Corn Snake with locality data? I actually couldn’t say, because the story has no more meaning to me any more than the story Gordon W. Schuett, Ph.D. told me many years ago about the Okeetees the Trans hypos came from, except I have names and locations. 10 - 15 years from now, new locality collectors might say, well I have never heard of Skyler Smith or Tom Chaing, so I would not except them as Okeetee Corn Snakes, only the ones I personally collected or the people in my circle that I know I would trust to have Pure Okeetees that I would breed to my Okeetees. I have a feeling that this may never change. It is amazing how the same old debates are being debated about the same old topics( Not just locality Okeetees), just by different people.

 

[Clint Boyer]

I think....

I don't have locality info on my snakes, but I do have some nice looking "normals". My Okeetees are from Loves stock with one male inparticular with said 'parent' from Okeetee hunt club.

I call my snakes "Okeetee phase" if they fit the criteria of what nice Okeetees should look like.

Since there is no sanctioning body to set criteria for the Corn snake arena, it's pretty much up to us as individuals to make these judment calls as they come down the pike.

I choose to call them Okeetee phase or Okeetee locality. That's about as cut and dried as I can get.

My .02

 

[Chip]

Clint,

That is a very nice cornsnake. Most that I produce do not have that clean of a pattern. Infusing wild blood into the gene pool sees to that! No doubt, my F4s will be better looking (on average) than w/cs or F1s.

To answer Joe's question on why folks hunt the club instead of easier to hunt (and legal) spots is somewhat nutty, I agree. It's driven by the lore of Kaufield, sure.
Mainly though, if you catch a snake a mile from the club, the why NOT Hardeeville? And if Hardeeville is okay, why not Hilton Head? If that's okay, why not anywhere is SC? Or as long as it's in the Carolinas? I completely agree that the same siblings could be found miles from the club of a locality snake. But I find it only right if I am to sell what purist want, and what I want, to make the property stakes the boundry.

Oh Joe, to my knowledge Tom Chaing has locality snakes. I have heard differing opinions on them, some great, some not. I wouldn't personally buy his snakes because I am often asked if my snakes have Chaing blood. I think because some people already have his stock, and others feel his lines are highly inbred. I have no firsthand knowledge of an inbreeding problem with his animals. In fact, I've only seen his adults on the internet.

 

[Neumann]

It seems to me that the whole locality issue is a somewhat moot issue because all animals migrate with their food sources as their environments change. Kauffeld might have discovered what he called the Okeetee Corn but wasn't that in the 50's (perhaps 1957-58)? The environment of the Hunt Club area certainly must have changed since then forcing the animals that live there to adapt to those changes or move to other areas?

Just my 2 cents. Perhaps someone who has studied Natural Selection at depth can provide some feedback?

Cheers,
Jason

 

[Chip]

What, Me worry?

Alfred E:
I hope you followed this whole thread. I'm not claiming domain to the word. Serp (and others) and I (and others) have been through this on more than one forum. I am only explaining what I do and why. I will point you in the direction of many, many threads with even more opinions in every conceivable direction reagarding the word "Okeetee" that I have saved, if you are interested. Rich Z and I will likely be playing checkers in Purgatory while other generations are feverantly debating this issue. It's exciting initially when you have a stance and meet an opponent, but I honestly feel I've said everything I can and heard everything that can counter. I can tell you that the hunt club is pretty much pristine wilderness where rich rednecks go to hunt quail, and will likely stay that way even while Rich and I play checkers in the sky...

 

[ecreipeoj]

Fast ball, high and tight!

Just when I was beginning to think that the locality collectors on this thread where about board and sincerely just interested collecting wild caught corns on the Okeetee Hunt Club Property and breeding them, I see this slam on Tom Chaing’s Okeetees and therefore, the 2.4 which I just obtained in a trade deal. Serps point to CAV was extremely valid. An exerted effort is embarked upon by locality collectors to put down directly or indirectly everybody else’s Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes and to place their Okeetee Phase Corn Snake high on a pedestal and therefore, persuade potential customers to buy their Okeetees instead of someone else’s. This is very likely financially motivated and perhaps over zealous pride in what they think they are accomplishing. Even when someone else has “Pure Okeetee Corn Snakes in their opinion, they can not resist to put them down and therefore make theirs seem better.

Have you ever heard of dirty politics or negative advertising or campaigning. How about dirty tactics by defense lawyers in court. They say something that they know will be objected to, which it is, and the judge tells the jury to disregard their statements. They can not disregard the statements, they have already heard them. You can not say, “Highly inbred”, “I wouldn’t personally buy his snakes.” “differing opinions on them some great, some not“, and take it back by saying “Some people already have his stock” and “I have no firsthand knowledge of an inbreeding problem with his animals”. You have already said “inbreeding problem” and planted the negative seed to discrete his animals and now mine. If you are going to say something about someone else’s animals stand behind what you say and do not hide behind slanted negative statements. I believe I could quote you as saying “ My F4‘s”. I believe F4’s are inbred. It all depends on what you do within your breeding program. For the record, I know you produce high quality offspring by using wild caught and F1 stock.

I do not know anything about Tom Chaing, except that he bought several pairs from Skylar Smith. If Skylar had at least two wild caught females, Tom could have easily obtained F1’s which were unrelated. Vin could have purchased 1.3 Okeetees from Tom which were of different lines and when Vin bred his Okeetees together from different lines mine would only be distantly inbred. This doesn’t not take into account that Tom may have purchased other “Pure” Okeettee’s to outcross his original animals from Skylar to. I just don’t know. I am sure that Tom Chaing has kept back his best offspring and used them as breeders exactly as you have and does produce Pure Okeetees which are inbred as you do. I would have to assume that Tom Chaing is not a locality collector himself and is not in the “Purist” circle.

I could buy 8.24 “Pure Okeettee Corn Snakes from eight different wild caught snakes and in two years be producing at least 500 “Pure” Okeetee Corn Snakes that are not inbred in anyway and every bid as nice as any others produced in captivity. How would you indirectly put down my animals then? About the only difference between those hypothetical captive produced Okeetees and yours, would be that fact that I am not in the Locality Collectors Circle.

__________________________________________________
Quote:
Oh Joe, to my knowledge Tom Chaing has locality snakes. I have heard differing opinions on them, some great, some not. I wouldn't personally buy his snakes because I am often asked if my snakes have Chaing blood. I think because some people already have his stock, and others feel his lines are highly inbred. I have no firsthand knowledge of an inbreeding problem with his animals. In fact, I've only seen his adults on the internet.
Chip
__________________________________________________

Below is three quotes, one from Carl Kauffield and the other two from CAV and Chip, which is representative of the Purist Locality Collectors opinion of what a “Pure” Okeetee Corn Snake is. CAV’s description is not derived from Kaufield’s description and is nothing more than the Herptoculturist’s description of an “Okeettee Phase” Corn Snake. There is no doubt in my mind that Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes are collected in the wild on the Okeetee Hunt Club by Locality Collectors. There is also no doubt in my mind that if I could ask Carl Kauffield, if his description of the corn snakes on the Okeetee, would apply to the wild corn snakes around the area of the Hunt Club that he would not hesitate and say something to the effect of: “Of Course, they are not confined to the Hunt Club Property”

This “Lore of Kaufield” does exist, I have referred to it as the Okeetee Corn Snake of Legend. These Okeetee Corn Snakes of Legend have been created by Herptoculturist and the “Lore of Kaufield” has been magnified times ten, by “Purist Locality Collectors” to place themselves high on a pedestal, about all others who breed Okeetee Phase Corn Snake. It doesn’t matter if we are talking about Wild Okeetee’s from the Hunt Club, Wild Okeetees collected from another location, Okeetee Phase Corn Snake with wild blood in them or Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes with no known ancestry. Purist Locality Collectors want to be on a pedestal above all other breeders of Okeetee Corn Snakes no matter who they are or which Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes they are breeding.

__________________________________________________
Quote:
The range of variation in color intensity and pattern, over an area of at most ten square miles, is quite amazing. Some have a ground color of mouse gray with dark scarlet blotches, others -- the prettiest -- have a rich orange ground color with vermilion blotches. It is odd that the lighter-colored snakes usually have fewer body blotches, and there is no sexual correlation so far as I can tell.
Carl Kauffield

Quote:
1) caught on the Hunt Club grounds, or 2) it is brightly colored with broad, bold, black outlines.
CAV

Quote:
It's driven by the lore of Kaufield, sure.
Chip
__________________________________________________

I respect Locality Collectors of all snakes. They are dedicated to what they are doing and providing others with a valuable service. The chance to obtain new blood, to outcross inbred snakes to and the ability to obtain locality specific snakes. The merits of what they are doing can stand on there own without direct or indirect negative statements towards others with interest in the captive breeding of snakes. I have collected snakes in the wild and I can see how it could be extremely addictive.

One of my new pet peeves, is inbred snakes. I am sick and tired of buying a new morph for a high price and spending two years raising them up and then when I finally get my first offspring from them, I get a couple healthy snakes and the rest are balls of kinks. When we are creating these wonderful new morphs, we need to also be out crossing them to maintain their viability. This is something that I have dedicated myself to within my colony and will take time to accomplish. Every year, I am going to outcross my morphs in every way possible. Locality Collectors provide me with the opportunity to obtain wild blood. Out crossing can also be accomplished without wild blood, since so many corns snakes are bred in captivity, but wild blood is best. I have to inbred to produce morphs, but I can be more cognizant of how inbred they are in my colony.

There are some questions about the Okeetee Phase Corns Snakes in the wild that I have. Why is there so much variation in the color of wild snakes on the Hunt Club? Why do the Okeetee Phase wild corn snakes generally have fewer blotches than the others. Why do I only get Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes from my corn snakes from wild corn snakes and not the other colors and patterns which occur in the wild populations? Can you produce Okeetee Phase Corn snakes from these other wild corn snakes which have different colors and patterns. What color phases of corns snakes would you get from an “Ugly” Corn snake bred to an Okeetee Phase Corn Snake collected on the Club? Is the Okeetee Phase dominant or recessive in some way? Locality Collectors could answer all of these questions, I am sure.

 

[Rich Z]

Man, I hope I can keep this short. I have a lot to do yet tonight.

I think I have been on the front lines about the logical inconsistencies when arguing locality specific animals based on artificial and arbitrary boundaries. But now the question of inbreeding is thrown into the mix as well, which gives us yet another perspective to consider.

If there is such a thing as *pure* Okeetee corn snakes that are ONLY found within the 10 square miles of the Okeetee Hunt Club, and this is a stable population that does not wander from this area, nor have *unpure* animals entered into it, how can the wild population there NOT be inbred? Either there is a constant flux of corn snakes moving to and fro through and around this arbitrary location providing a mixture of "blood" from all populations around the Okeetee Hunt Club, and have been doing so for as long as there have been corn snakes, or they are all consistently breeding within that singular isolated local population on the hunt club, producing each subsequent generation of inbred animals.

And if someone has their own group of *pure* Okeetee corns in captivity and insist on ONLY getting animals directly from the Okeetee Hunt Club grounds for *new* blood, what is the point? Either you are STILL inbreeding those animals even with new animals from the same isolated locality, or you are using wandering specimens from outside of this arbitrary boundary that might have been captured on their trip through the hunt club grounds.

Either the animals are heavily inbred in an isolated island population, or they are a mixture of all populations within the roaming grounds of all corn snakes in the area. They are ALL either *purely* inbred, or they are ALL a mutt mixture of all corns in the area. Pick one.

So what is this argument about? I think I have lost the thrust of the entire point in this matter.

 

[Chip]

Hold on a minute, Joe!

I DID NOT bash Chaing's stock. In fact I said they are locality, to my knowledge. The Haphazard Rd. stock has been around for a while, and some have told me that the same animals have been involved in the breeding all these years. People you meet at shows and over the Internet say a lot of things.

I also have sold to folks who have Chaing's stock, and they wouldn't be interested in mine if I had Chaing blood. Therefore, I wouldn't buy his. That's all. I'm not getting righteous on you. I'm not putting down his stuff. Check the BOI and find out from people who have bought from him. He seems to be respected, overall. I answered your question with all the information I had, yes; some here-say. That's not "putting down" anyone.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Back to the issue, test breeding hypos.

I have been thinking one thing, and said or written, something that can be taken differently by other people. I do not want anything that I have said on this forum to damage anybody in any way. I want to apologize to anybody who feels I have said anything that hurt them personally and I do not want anybody to have a negative opinion about anybody, based on anything that I have written. I should be more careful before I say anything that is negative about anybody and so should everybody else.

I have been operating in a defensive mode ever since I got dragged into the forums over the Blue Ice Corn Snake adds I ran. I have decided to hold all of them back and see how they develop and wait until more is known about them. I feel like we are in a debate and stating our opinions and it should not go beyond that. Obviously, we are all very passionate about our snakes and we have a bond in that way and need to stick together, because we are in the minority.

I hope to purchase locality collected corn snake from some of the people who have participated in this thread and if I ever get the chance to go in search of Wild Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes, I would love to tag along with them.

The issue at hand is a new hypo gene that is not compatible with the other known hypo genes. This new hypo gene happen to come from wild caught snakes near the Okeetee Hunt Club which were of the Okeetee phase. I did not realize the enormous differences of opinions about what the name Okeetee meant. To me, it seems perfectly clear, but my opinion is not necessarily the right one, just my opinion. I have claimed this gene to be a new hypo gene based upon my test breedings. It would have been extremely foolish to claim something like this which can easily be disproved. Another issue at hand, is the great possibility that other hypos out there that have not been test bred to determine which type of hypo they are, may be compatible with the Trans hypo or other known hypos. There is no doubt that it will take a while to begin to figure out the hypo mess. I personally do not think it is an impossible task. I have three different hypo genes in my colony and I know which is which. The fact that there are more that one hypo gene out there which have become mixed together and called different things by different people is the cause of most of the confusion.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I'm just going to throw this into the mix and then leave it alone, hoping not to sound too wishy-washy in the process:

I find the term "okeetee phase" to be every much a non-sensical term as I find "anerythristic bloodred" to be. The first is a locality name applied to a "look" and the second is a color name applied to a pattern mutation. Neither of them make any sense at all, and in a perfect world, wherein I was king, I would change them both to something else.

However, there are simply too many people in this hobby/industry to effect a change at this point, even if the prominent people among us were in agreement as to what should be done, and they are not. The newbies do not even understand the issues at hand fully enough to join in the conversation, let alone comprehend why it should matter.

The term "okeetee" is gone as far as a locality purist perspective is concerned. We can argue ad infinitum as to whether this should be, but it is still gone. I strongly suggest that locality purists find another term by which to identify their animals, and have THE indentifying characteristic be that the animal was found, or descends from animals ONLY found, on the Okeetee Hunt Club. Call them "Hunt Club" corns, if you like, or pick something entirely different to identify the locality, but banging your heads against a wall that WILL NOT crumble seems to be a waste of talent, energy, and time at this point.

 

[ecreipeoj]

More info on the origins of the Trans Hypo gene.

I contacted Gordon Schuett again and ask if I could get his brothers contact information so I could try to track down more information about the origins of the Trans Hypo gene. Gordon gave me his brothers name (Kyle Schuett) and phone number in Florida and I spoke to him on the phone. Kyle is still into reptiles and is working with Albino Boas and Albino Snapping Turtles, so he remembered some information about the Okeetee Corn Snakes which he sent to Gordon. The founder animal from this line was a male which was collected by Scott Pfaff, who was Curator of Reptiles and the Ridgeland Zoo. Scott Pfaff apparently is a locality collector of the Okeetee Phase Corn Snakes from the wild and Hunted the Club most of the time, because he had permission to do so. The male was lighter and more beautiful than any other Okeetee Phase Corn Snake that Kyle has seen. They were of the impression that the animal was some type of hypo, but it was not like the Trans Hypo Okeetees, which I described to him. He related that Scott collected on the Hunt Club mostly, but did not know exactly where the founder male was captured or where the female he bred him to was captured. Kyle believes that Scott is still working at the Zoo and probably still has Corn Snakes from the Okeetee Phase Corn Snake which was the founder of the Trans Hypo Okeetee he collected. Kyle said that this male was the founder, meaning the male which Scott used to breed to most all of his females. It is also possible that the female that produced the Okeetees which were sent to Gordon was the source of the Trans Hypo Gene, because as far as Kyle knew no other Hypos were produced.

So far, I have been lucky and have traced down all of the people in the chain from the wild caught snake to the Trans Hypo Okeetee. I am sure that I will be able to contact Scott and he can provide the “Documentation” as to where the original “founder” male and female of the Transparent Hypo Okeetee were collected.