A parting of ways

[Jessicat]

Aww, Oren, I really enjoy your presance around here, and LOVE your photography.

I hope at some point you change your mind and come back.. I have "taken breaks" of this site before, not because of any personal dispute, but just because of life..
The site was ALWAYS there for me when I came back and... generally people who had been annoying me the last time I frequented were gone..

We've lost so many great members over the years, it just sucks to see another one go.. I guess I'll just have to put your website into my favorites section so I can look at your stuff sometimes!!

Good luck with wherever you go, and secretly I hope you decide to stay or come back. :smash:

It's been real.

 

[Kokopelli]

Thanks Jessie.

I would really rather not.

Sorry for editing- I just realized that really, there's honestly no point to repeat what was said.

Thank you,

And feel free to keep in touch

 

[Rich Z]

*sigh*

Look, I think my English is decent but I am -not- managing the get my point across.

1- I did not know it was against regulations- not knowing is not an excuse, but it's a reason.

2- Your attitude of "guilty unless proven otherwise" is problematic. Of course you will find all sorts of ways to justify your reasoning. You blame me for not seeing your point of view? You are very busy at finding reasons to reinforce your beliefs, which are the contrary to what I am telling you.

3- I thought it should have been given a second thought- you think otherwise. That's fine- and that's the answer I would have expected, rather than telling me I was extorting you or "wanting to be special"
Your manner of delivery is far from being kind. And I don't see how the message I originally sent you warranted your subsequent reply, and behavior from that point on.
I sent several messages to try and clarify things- you continued to ignore my explanations. So yes, after about 3-4 messages I grew quite tired of your attitude and called you arrogant.

That's my crime? calling you arrogant? or God forbid, asking the site's mod to reconsider something?(just once, not repeatedly, without demanding anything)

And when I tried to leave- and didn't want to spend around an hour+ recalling everyone I would like to say bye to, I posted a thread- and you decided to make it a staging ground of humiliation.

Rich, think what you will. I think that even if you look at it from a logical point of view- this is a cornsnake site, in the US- the likelihood of this ad to be very financially effective is not very high.

I took it to the levels I did because I was hurt- hurt that you'd blame me of extortion, hurt that you'd choose to reply in such a MANNER after I supported this forum- your decision would have been accepted, it's your tone that was uncalled for. I don't care that my ad was removed. I care that you chose to be aggressive and accusatory towards a person who never meant you any harm.
No reason on earth aside from personal hurt would have driven me to "take it to this level" as you mentioned.

You can accept this, and you can stubbornly continue to believe you know better than I do what I meant.
I tend to accept people's explanations of themselves- I don't see how your interpretation is so solid that you'd completely ignore my explanations.

Sorry, Oren, but it's not a matter of you failing to get your point across. The problem here is that you just cannot accept that YOUR point is not acceptable and has been rejected, both by the mod involved and myself. Since you are apparently trying to paint yourself blameless here, let's look at what was sent to you when your ad was removed, as well as your original PM to me....

The following quotes are from the mod who removed your classified ad:

I am terribly sorry Oren, but I had to remove your classified. Rich has given clear instructions that Contributing members are not allowed to broker animals owned by non-Contributing members as those Contributing members had to pay for the privilege to place classified ads.

Have you placed an ad over on FaunaClassifieds? Your ad for someone else's snakes is allowed there and you will find a much larger group of boa people that might be interested as well.

Then your reply to this mod after that second PM:

Since I have never placed an ad for myself, and since I live in the Middle East, I think that a bit more use of consideration should have been placed on this call rather than blindly clicking the erase button.

I think that the fact that I paid for a subscription and the fact that the owner simply doesn't have time to surf on the internet should have allowed me to post here- as it is, I am contributing my money and get absolutely nothing for it.

I apologize, but I intend to withhold from contributing again if such a trigger happy policy exists here- I do not think I have ever abused or even used my rights here- and not to allow me even this much when I am paying to fund a site from which I doubt I will see anything?
I contributed as an act of good will, and have found the sentiment not to be mutual.

I got the idea,

Thank you.

And then the PM you sent to me.

Greetings,

I have praised this site many times, but I have to admit that today one of your appointed administrators acted in a way which will assure that I won't be contributing to this site again.

I have become a contributing member as an act of good will- knowing that most likely, I will never enjoy the access people from the US have here- the inability to easily purchase or even participate in any contests because of the proximity.

I was lucky enough to be able to work with someone who can and is capable of shipping snakes to the US- so... I work with him, and basically aiding myself by helping him sell his animals.

My ad was deleted, and Susan told me I was brokering animals and that this was not allowed.

Now...
I believe that I should be entitled to -some- measure of benefit from being a contributor... but all possibilities are barred from me save from having the ability to edit my posts- the rest, I do not use.

I think that the ratio of my posts when compared to the two ads I ever placed on the sales board is indication enough that I am not here for commercial purposes.

It was a trigger happy move, and I was squeezed to fit some sort of frame of regulations without a second thought.

I donated money, and I never demanded anything for it. But I do believe that a better treatment in this case was warranted.

If this is how the administration of this site chooses to repay me for my contribution... than I understand, and will not repeat the mistake of donating again.

I fully understand that the site will live on, and I will by no means be a major loss. But that's just a horrible way to treat people.

My regards,
Oren.

Obviously you already had your mind made up at that time. And as you stated in your own reply here, I think we all have the message about what you want. I am sorry that we cannot comply with your wishes.

And yes, I guess I could have avoided using the term "extortion", but would you have responded with "taking your ball and bat and going home", any differently? To "extort" something can have many definitions. The context I used it in is using the definition as "to compel (something) of a person or thing". Which I believe is entirely accurate of the situation. You were trying to compel me to make an exception of the rule based on your statements that you were withholding further contributions to this site because of our policy. Perhaps you meant it differently, but it looked pretty black and white to me. Based on your perceived attitude in the above mentioned correspondence, I believe that your "manner of delivery" wasn't exactly made with "kindness" at heart.... And yet you take offense that I might respond in like kind, via your own perception?

Oren, go ahead and keep painting yourself into that corner. That is your choice to make. You started this by deciding that my mod's decision was not binding and that you might get your way by going over their head. Sorry, but it is extremely rare that I will ever overrule one of my mods, and if it were to happen, it would be in an extremely exceptional case. Which, I am afraid, does not apply to this one.

You are certainly welcome to stay at this site, but not at the cost of the management of this site making special exceptions and exemptions for you when YOU feel you are due them.

 

[Putty]

I donated money, and I never demanded anything for it. But I do believe that a better treatment in this case was warranted.

As far as a donation goes we get sone neat little perks for the little amount of money we GIVE. I also don't live in the US. I don't exactly lookthrough the classifieds either even if I technically could ship corns up here. My interest in a different species may play a part in that too but who cares. I donated knowing fully that I would get a shiny badge, a red name and HTML enabled signature space. That alone is probably worth the money if you think about plugging your website for everyone to see when you make a post - it's advertisement.

A donation is a donation.

 

[Nanci]

Oren, I believe your statements which I will highlight are what Rich has interpreted as "extortion."

"Greetings,

I have praised this site many times, but I have to admit that today one of your appointed administrators acted in a way which will assure that I won't be contributing to this site again.

I have become a contributing member as an act of good will- knowing that most likely, I will never enjoy the access people from the US have here- the inability to easily purchase or even participate in any contests because of the proximity.

I was lucky enough to be able to work with someone who can and is capable of shipping snakes to the US- so... I work with him, and basically aiding myself by helping him sell his animals.

My ad was deleted, and Susan told me I was brokering animals and that this was not allowed.

Now...
I believe that I should be entitled to -some- measure of benefit from being a contributor... but all possibilities are barred from me save from having the ability to edit my posts- the rest, I do not use.

I think that the ratio of my posts when compared to the two ads I ever placed on the sales board is indication enough that I am not here for commercial purposes.

It was a trigger happy move, and I was squeezed to fit some sort of frame of regulations without a second thought.

I donated money, and I never demanded anything for it. But I do believe that a better treatment in this case was warranted.

If this is how the administration of this site chooses to repay me for my contribution... than I understand, and will not repeat the mistake of donating again.

I fully understand that the site will live on, and I will by no means be a major loss. But that's just a horrible way to treat people.

My regards,
Oren."

Maybe "extortion" is a strong word, and as your friend, I sympathize with you and will hate to see you go, but it reads to me as if you have told Rich that you have paid your $25 for a contributing membership, and because Rich will not break the rule that says one must be a contributing member to advertise animals for sale, and that a member cannot advertise animals for sale for someone who is not a contributing member, then you "will not make the mistake of donating again."

 

[Nanci]

You started this by deciding that my mod's decision was not binding and that you might get your way by going over their head. Sorry, but it is extremely rare that I will ever overrule one of my mods, and if it were to happen, it would be in an extremely exceptional case. Which, I am afraid, does not apply to this one.

To be fair, Oren had contacted me, with absolutely no details, indicating he was distressed over something that had happened here, asking if I thought Rich would be open to communication by PM. I said I thought he would. I asked if there was anything I could do to help. By the time I heard from Oren again, all the communication had already taken place.

 

[diamondlil]

Oren, I too have virtually no chance of ever selling my snakes through this site, but that's not a consideration in why I contribute and I would never even think of selling a non-contributer's snakes for them through here.
I'm a contributer because I've got so much in the way of friendship and information from this site that it's a small way of 'paying it back'.I've had virtual shoulders to lean on, support, laughter, tears, disagreements, but most of all without this site I wouldn't have my precious Diamond Lil alive, well and thriving.
If I broke the rules of this site I'd expect exactly the same consideration every member gets, contributer or not.

 

[Kokopelli]

I can't argue with either Putty or diamondlil. I am not that acquainted with everyone.
I made the contribution almost a year ago, with no thought of selling anything. It was not consideration I made.

Nanci- Rich interpreted my words to be extortion.
I don't see how me saying that I will not contribute again is an extortion. I placed no "unless", nor "if".

Now, I would have understood that conclusion. But to completely ignore my subsequent messages that clarified and explained that is simply beyond me.

This is his last reply:

"Oren,

From this discussion, it is painfully obvious to me that had I replied to your original PM with simply "NO", instead of explaining why I can't would have gotten you just as upset. Believe me, I have been there as well with other people. It's a damned if I do, and damned if I don't situation nine times out of ten.

I know English is not your primary language, but the term "extort" does have more widely understood definitions than you are apparently aware of. You obviously are thinking "criminal" whereas I was not. It means to try to compel someone to do something in exchange for something else, which PERFECTLY fits this situation.

And whether you realize it or not, your INTENT you now claim has changed in your mind from your original PMs. You may want to read them over again when you can do so in an unbiased frame of mind. Your intent is clear that you most certainly DID want us to bend the rule in your favor.

Rich Z."

I highlighted two things.

1- his assumption that he saw it all and so I had to fit what he already knew. Even if I said otherwise

2- a rather ambitious declaration that he knows better than I do what went through my mind.

I did not argue or say that my original post couldn't have possibly be misunderstood- but to ignore my explanations so thoroughly because he believes he knows me better than I do?

And you know what? Let us for the sake of the argument say that I demanded those things, that I extorted Rich et cetera- that means I am not entitled to say a proper farewell?

The response is without proportion to the "alleged" crime. I was put to the stand and found wanting even before I uttered a single word, and it doesn't matter how long or how many times I will explain myself, Rich already had figured everything out and my explanations don't mean anything.

I don't want to do this anymore...
From here on out feel free to write whatever you feel like writing- that I demanded, extorted(even if in my first message I pretty much wrote I knew how meaningless a single contribution made so I don't really see how an extortion seemed logical), threatened at gun-point... whatever.

I unknowingly broke a rule. Well. I know plenty of people who knowingly swore- they were treated a deal better than this show of humiliation.

Thank you,

Long days and pleasant nights.

 

[Rich Z]

I can't argue with either Putty or diamondlil. I am not that acquainted with everyone.
I made the contribution almost a year ago, with no thought of selling anything. It was not consideration I made.

Nanci- Rich interpreted my words to be extortion.
I don't see how me saying that I will not contribute again is an extortion. I placed no "unless", nor "if".
Now, I would have understood that conclusion. But to completely ignore my subsequent messages that clarified and explained that is simply beyond me.

Ahem........

If this is how the administration of this site chooses to repay me for my contribution... than I understand, and will not repeat the mistake of donating again.

My regards,
Oren.

 

[SquamishSerpents]

shouldn't this really be taken to PM? I came to wish Koko well, but instead all I see is more site drama...

the initial disapproval of "melodramatic exits" like these, could also have been privately addressed.

 

[HeavenHell]

Extortion? Really? Come on guys a long standing member got a bit upset because he felt he was treated unfairly. I'm sure we have all felt that way at one time or another. Maybe you could all just do a group hug or kissssssssssssssssssss and makeup?

 

[mike17l]

Hey guys/gals, its prolly not a good idea to question the owner of this site, who has made his opinion well known (and consistent). Just a thought.

 

[ziggybond_007]

I don't understand why everyone keeps thinking Rich meant criminal exhortion after he said numerous times he meant something else.

If you say you're going to go, then go... Seems to me your pms are contradicting what you're saying here anyway.

 

[Fatman608]

Hey ziggybond_007,

You sound like a good Texas redneck and if you are not then I am. I believe the phrase you are looking for is

"Do not let the screen door hit you on your bottom on the way out"

Sorry I love that phrase

Love the Fatman

 

[ziggybond_007]

Hey ziggybond_007,

You sound like a good Texas redneck and if you are not then I am. I believe the phrase you are looking for is

"Do not let the screen door hit you on your bottom on the way out"

Sorry I love that phrase

Love the Fatman

Not quite redneck, but yes, I am from Texas... I'd probably be substituting a few words if I were to say it, lmfao.

 

[Fatman608]

This is a G rated site so I fixed a word. I do not want my daughter to read bad words so I have to fix the phrase so young people like my daughter can read it and not be offended.

Plus I think it makes this forum a better place.

If you did not notice I am the real Texas redneck and proud of it.

Sorry if I offended you by calling you a redneck.

Love the Fatman

 

[Rich Z]

Hey guys/gals, its prolly not a good idea to question the owner of this site, who has made his opinion well known (and consistent). Just a thought.

I have a Discussions About This Site forum here, which indicates that I don't mind being questioned about how I run things here. But here's a clue: If you ASK for something, be prepared to be denied if it involves special privileges that will run against the grain of what is established as par for the course. If you are going to get upset about being denied and try to strenuously convince me that I am in error and you are correct, assuming that I just must not understand you fully, then we'll likely have some difficulties between us. And bear in mind that the moderators here are doing an excellent job of enforcing the rules (both stated and implied) that I have laid out for them to follow. If you try to pit me against them, I will simply decline to participate.

Furthermore, I am perfectly willing to listen to someone telling me how to run this site better than I apparently can. But bear in mind that tt will be helpful if you can point to a similar forum that you are running that is doing better than this one is, so I can see that your recommendations are based on first hand knowledge and not just wild guesses like I am doing concerning how to do this stuff... When I started this site, it didn't come with an owners manual. So I have to just wing it and try to do the best I can.