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American Cornsnake Registry

nehpets1

Ruler of Heck
How many people register their cornsnakes? And is there good reason to do this?

I understand that one reason is to prevent massive inbreeding when breeders buy/sell to each other, but other than that, I'm looking for reasons to justify the extra expense.

Does anyone have any?:bang:
 
It's less about "preventing massive inbreeding" and more about tracking parentage. Also, if you actually visit the registry site and browse through it you would see that a lot of people register their snakes. It's a very handy tool to have. If, however, you have a single snake and won't ever breed, no big deal if you don't register it.

Though, honestly, I can't see that the few bucks it takes to register a snake is a large enough amount to consider it an "extra expense." :rolleyes:
 
Ah, but one of the goals of tracking parentage is to prevent inbreeding. Same princeple as the Kennel Clubs.

And I have been to ACR and I did see how many snakes in general are registered, I'm wondering how many people on Cornsnakes.com register their snakes.

And with 30 snakes to register, It's a $150 - $300 extra expense not counting any discounts.

That's at least one additional snake as far as I'm concerned, and I want to justify the Very real expense.
 
Inbreeding with snakes is a must to do test breedings, get morphs from single gene parents, and is the biggest way we get line bred animals. Unlike Dogs, cats, humans, and other mamals, inbreeding snakes doesn't produce the same kind of problems.

I am in the process of regersting all my current breeders. To people that are breeding and selling their hatchlings can pay with what they make and the ones that have a business registered with the government can write this off on taxes as a business expense, so they end up getting it back in one form or another.

The biggest reason for regersting your snakes is so that people know what you have, what genes are in your lines, and what you are able to produce. Say that you sell a snake to someone at a show, and they want to know what the parents look like, what genes there are, and what their snake could possibly be. At a show, you don't have a lot of time to just site and chit chat with a customer because you have at least 3 to 4 others at your table. nor do you normally have a bunch of pictures of all your breeders cataloged in the pairs that you used for breeding that year. Having the parents registered makes this all easy. Just put the parents registered names on the deli cups and then the new corn owner can go and get answers for themselves.
 
For us it is to allow people who purchase from us to be very clear about which offspring are 'pure' cornsnakes and which are creamsicles and the deriviatives. We can be confident that we have correctly represented our stock when the new owner is given the opportunity to register the offspring and see the parents documented in the registry. It is a reliable way to ensure that people are informed when they buy creamsicles or other emoryi/corns - especially as more of the colors and pattern mutations are incorporated into emoryi/corns and some are indistinguishable from 'pure' corns.

I also think there are advantages to the hobby from having a registry that begins to recognize corn snakes are becoming a domestic animal. In our area we have quite restrictive legislation that regards all pet snakes as captive wildlife. I think it is a beneficial move to give recognition that some species that have been captive bred for many generations are virtually domestic and a registry helps support that.

The cost is well worth it to us,


mary v.
mary v.
 
nehpets1 said:
Ah, but one of the goals of tracking parentage is to prevent inbreeding. Same princeple as the Kennel Clubs.

And I have been to ACR and I did see how many snakes in general are registered, I'm wondering how many people on Cornsnakes.com register their snakes.
Among the larger-scale breeders participating (who also post on this site) are Kathy Love, Joe Pierce, and Jeff Mohr. :)

And with 30 snakes to register, It's a $150 - $300 extra expense not counting any discounts.

That's at least one additional snake as far as I'm concerned, and I want to justify the Very real expense.
Just FYI the discounts would definitely apply if you are registering 30 snakes. So this would be $90-180, depending on how many of them have registered parents, but no more than $180.

If some of the ones you register are the offspring of other snakes you are registering in the same package, (that is, you register mom, dad, and a pair of their hatchlings) then the hatchlings are priced at the lower "from registered stock" price. :)

Once you know how many would be from registered parents and from non-registered parents, the Fee Calculator will show you just how much it would cost. :)

Assuming you plan to breed any of them and sell offspring, you can take advantage of the free pre-registration program. You get ID stickers to put on your deli cups and for record-keeping, and you earn credits toward free registrations for your future keepers every time someone (including yourself) registers a snake that was pre-registered by you. If you register this year you can still use the pre-registration program for your 2006 hatchlings even if they've already hatched.

As far as general advantages, Mary V mentioned a few good ones. For me one of the nice things is that I get to see pics of my hatchlings, possibly see updated pics as they grow up, and possibly see what they produce themselves.

And, I think it's pretty neat to be able to trace a pedigree back through 4 or 5 different owners (already at this point) and this will snowball and be that much more useful as time goes on.

It's also nice to be able to give someone an entire pedigree, genotypes, etc (not just within my own stock, but as far back as it goes through any number of owners/breeder) with just one or two ACR numbers. :) If you're selling one that is already registered or pre-registered, you just give them the certificate or pre-reg sticker, done.

Another advantage is that if a new gene seems to have popped up, the registry will help immensely in trying to figure out where it came from and what its mode of inheritance is. :D
 
nehpets1 said:
Ah, but one of the goals of tracking parentage is to prevent inbreeding. Same princeple as the Kennel Clubs.

Tracking parentage is so one can know what genes are behind an animal. Kennel clubs don't exist to prevent inbreeding; they are merely a body to register purebred animals. Inbreeding itself is not a dangerous thing if you know what you're doing, and when it comes to snakes, inbreeding isn't an unholy taboo. It's not uncommon for breeders to hold back several clutchmates that carry hets to breed together so they get the target morph in the second generation.

In the end, it's up to you. You can choose to buy another snake with the money it would take to register if another snake is that much more important and worthwhile. You can also register your snakes a handful at a time. Personally, I'm quite pleased that all the hatchlings I have purchased, barring the first one (the registry wasn't around then) all came from registered stock. It makes my job that much easier in the future when I breed them.
 
I love the ACR and all my breeders are registered. I'm considering registering my 11 year old amel boy that I have no breeding plans for.
I have a 10 year old female named Kate. I acquired her at my reptile club. She was a raffle item to help raise money for the club. She was a year old when I got her and was of good size. I had 2 amel males and decided to breed her, having been told that she was het for amel. I kept the first snake I ever hatched, a lovely girl I named Keeper. I bred her several more times and when Keeper was old enough I bred her too. I sold the babies to various pet shops in the area and sold a few privately. Years later I learned that the person who donated Kate to the club bred almost exclusively creamsicles. Kate was probably a byproduct. So all this time I was breeding creamsicles and rootbeers and had no idea!! Keeper has ALOT of red in her saddles and looks like a gorgeous classic, but is more than likely a rootbeer. I love my 2 girls but I don't think I will ever breed them again. I am so glad there is a registry now. I wouldn't consider buying an unregistered snake.
 
If you have 30 snakes to register at the same time, the bulk discount applies and it's $6 each for snakes from unregistered parents or $3 each for snakes with both registered parents. Just to clarify. :)

Quite honestly, when we started this up, we started it for us. We figured if no one else ever used it, it would still be well worth the time and effort to implement it for many reasons. We also thought that a lot of people could benefit from using the system and just think of the giant family trees we'll generate when the info stays with the snakes as they pass from breeder to breeder to breeder through the generations. No more lost records.

Some of my favorite things about the registry...

1) Easy online access from any computer to view our records, photos of the snakes and pedigrees (with and without photos). I can access info and show off my snakes from anywhere there's a computer with internet access.

2) The program automatically fills in progeny, siblings, and half siblings using the ACR numbers, so I've got a nice record showing me all the progeny (registered) that each snake has produced and their sexes at a glance. It also reminds me which snakes are related/half siblings and such, which can be overlooked when planning breedings when you're dealing with a large collection.

3) I can search my collection for all the snakes carrying gene x, y, and z if I choose, just to see if I've missed a potential pairing I may not have thought of for project XYZ.

4) Although I don't know if Chuck has this up yet on the ACR or not, the database has the ability to generate instant demo pedigrees you can make to show the family tree for a whole clutch of snakes and use it in advertising.

For example:

http://www.herpregistry.com/acr/demopedigree.php?sire=1125&dam=221

You can input different parents and it flags if you have entered a male as a dam or a female as a sire.

5) Easy to link to for advertising the snake for sale. The genetics, what it has produced, what it looks like, what lines it comes from...it's all there. Takes a lot of the work out of it for me.

6) I love the instant jump box at the top where you can just enter an ACR number and it jumps there. Chuck just added that and it's made my life loads easier.

Anyway, you get out of the registry what you put into it (esp. time and informationwise). We've priced it at bare minimum to cover costs of certificate creating and time inputting and creating the records. We also offer the preregistration program free to breeders to help encourage their buyers to keep the records going and to have easy ID stickers that list all the pertinant info for the new buyers to register their snakes. Another nice thing about the prereg system for breeders is that it earns you free registrations for your own stock, the more prereg's that end up getting registered, the more you earn back.

Just some thoughts on what I've found to be useful with the registry, but take it for what it's worth since I'm involved with its creation. :grin01:
 
To answer your original question, almost all of my snakes '05 and older are registered... and once I'm through with hatching season, the remaining '05s and all the keeper '06s will wind up registered as well.

-Kat
 
constraints in ACR

I think the Registry is a great idea - I hope the db is secure enough that no one with less than honorable intent breaks in and wreaks havoc with it. This is like going to Utah to check all the genealogical records for people w/o having to deal with guys in identical white shirts and ties. And the photos are great to have there.

One thing I note, however, is that every feature that is recorded about the snake, other than lineage, has to do with color features. From what I've seen on all of these posts, that is basically all that breeders talk about in terms of characteristics as well.

Now, maybe as a clueless newbie (I've been faithfully reading all of the posts where people complain about newbie questions, and then defend newbies posting, so hopefully I know what might set folks off :D ), I will learn one day that there is nothing worth recording about a corn snake except its color, pattern, and het possibilities, but currently I also am interested in personality, size, and longevity. There does not seem to be any space to record these things, or any suggestion that there will be at any point.

I saw on one of the threads about personalities - I think a male/female one - a theory that personality might be inherited. Now, I realize that there is a level of subjectivity to this that one does not face with morph categories, but this idea could be borne out and taken advantage of if it were actually tracked somewhere. I think size and lifespan data could also be beneficial to breeders. So, I wish it could fit in the database somewhere.

Regardless, I'm gonna (sorry for slang contraction, guys) pay my $5 and register my gem of an okeetee when I get him, even if I never breed him, and I hope the list grows beyond everyone's wildest dreams. It's a wonderful thing.

The end.
 
Lots of great benefits have been mentioned already.

Some of the most important benefits to me PERSONALLY are the fact that customers will be able to look up photos of the parents, and eventually grandparents and beyond, so that they won't have to ONLY use their imaginations to decide what their baby okeetee or other corn might look like. If the parents and grandparents look great, good chance the babies will too. And I don't have to try to manage all of that computer stuff myself.

And by next year when I have all my entries complete (some still have some typos and lack of photos), I will be able to use a clean, small sticker on each label instead of the parent's long IDs in my own atrocious handwriting! Much faster, less work, and more legible!

And for those customers who care about such things, my okeetees (or other corn morphs) with ancestry info and photos available, and a registry certificate too, may give them a reason to want to buy my more expensive snakes instead of the $10 okeetee that somebody else may be selling at the expo table next to me.

There are lots of great features, but those are the helpful ones that come to mind first.
 
I think that anybody who has 30 Corns and plans on breeding them, will keep some kind of records about their colony and offspring if they are going to be a responsible breeder. I have always kept records of all of my snakes, such as who the breeder was that produced them, their year of birth, sex, and eventually their offspring. I made up my system as I went along. The records where there, but they were not really of any use, because you could not really compare or trace much of anything.

I think there is some value in knowing who the parents of your Corns actually are, instead of only getting information on the morphs that produced them. Sometimes you can get some pretty good info on the female who produced the clutch and what morph the many potential fathers were, but what about info on the generation before that? An ACR registered Corn will have all of the info most people could possibly want, especially as each years breeding season is added year after year. Check out some of the Lava based morphs that are registered with the ACR. In time, as more information is added, the records that go back to the beginning of a morphs discovery will have more value than all of the registration fees combined.

When I first heard about the ACR, I thought that if I could get all of my Corns registered, then perhaps I could make some use out of all of this data that I had been collecting for many years. I had enough paper in boxes, in every conceivable nook and cranny imaginable, that I was able to go back to the beginning, and start registering my founding stock. As I continued registering each of my previous breeding season, I soon began to realize the value the ACR was going to have for me, and to anybody who decides to participate.

What good were the records that I was keeping really. It would have taken me days to really trace any new gene that I happen to discover, and they were of no real use to anybody else. Why do breeders keep records anyway. Is it for their own use, and nothing more. The only real disadvantage of the ACR that I could come up with is not being able to hide things, but I really did not want to be a secret basement breeder anyway. Since you do not have to register you Corns until they are breeding, there is a least a two year lag, and any super secrete projects that you happen to be working on, that nobody else could have possibly conceived of, will have a good two or three year head start.

Now that I have converted to the ACR system, I can tell you that my record keeping has improved dramatically, and it is actually much easier to keep track of everything than the way I was doing it before. It is pretty simple to write the males ACR # on the females cage when he breeds her, and when the female lays her eggs, it is extremely easy to record the parents of the clutch, 2008 X 2005, or what ever it happens to be. I still have to keep separate listings of the clutches, but now that I have the system in place, it will grow before my eyes, year after year.

Many people talk about the extra work or cost that the ACR causes. I have always recorded who the parents of each hatchling were anyway by a clutch number on the lid. Now, they get a sticker. What is the cost of not preserving the records of your Corns? What is the value of your records being preserved when you are gone, or decided that you no longer want to raise Corns? You may not care, but a lot of people do. The contribution you make to the Corn World, will forever be preserved, or you will be forgotten in time. Your name might get in a book, but it would be nice to know that you produced a particular Corn Snake in 2006, 10 years from now. Every year, I find out by chance that many of my Corns are carrying recessive genes. It would sure be nice to know what genes my Corns may be carrying, so I could plan my breedings better. If a Corn you buy is pre-registered with the ACR, you will have all of the info that is possible about any possible het genes it may be carrying. This is of great value to everybody in my opinion. Some people won’t even tell you a Corn is possibly het for this or that gene, unless you pay for the info. If a Corn is het for a gene it is worth more money, and sometimes if they are possibly het for a particular gene they may be as well, but why not pass on the info that a Corn is 50% possibly het for Amel or Anery and all other known genes. Actually, you won’t have to pass on anything except the parents ACR #’s. A buyer can look back in their ancestry and see that one of the Corns in their Corns family tree was het for Blood. This gene could have easily been passed on as het 50% of the time for many generations.

Corn Snake genetics is exploding. We are discovering new genes at a rate that none of us could have imagined a few years ago. We are going to start figuring out much more about our Corns than just the major genes they are carrying. In time, we are going to learn why Corals are pink, and how we can predict how to produce more of them. Are there several separate genes or lineages of Corns that produce pink Corns, but are not compatible when bred together. I think we already know this is the case, but without a system, like the ACR, to permanently keep track of the lineage of Corns, we would be trudging ahead rather blindly, and the information a breeder has taken a lifetime to discover, can be lost forever in an instant. I personally think the ACR and this forum is the best thing that ever happened to Corn Snakes.
 
So many good and informative responses have been given already. I agree whole-heartedly that regestering with the ACR is a worth while investment.

We have regestered many of our older snakes and just sent in the paperwork on a handful of pre-regestered hatchlings that we received earlier this year. We still have many snakes left to regester though, with our collection more then tripling these last 8 months and another good 10-12 hatchlings anticipated to arrive before the end of the year - it is daunting to think of the cost of regestering the entire collection. We will have well over 60 snakes before the end of the year, including a few we plan to sell off.

True, some of ours are already regestered but there is still a good 40 that are not. Our plan is to regester them in small groups of 10-15 so as to ease the burden of cost over several small payments instead of all at once.

I should also add that our one and only clutch of eggs from this year will soon be pre-regestered, as will all future clutches in the years to come.

Jenn
 
I was never sure if this registry was going to catch on, but it seems to be getting there. If you had upward of 50 keeper corns, the photos and data entry alone would be exhausting, let alone expense of registering animals. I've thought about registering only the animals that I caught wild myself, but that's a small sample of the collection. How are you folks who are registered (with larger collections) going about this?
 
I don't have a large collection- just 30 or 40 snakes, plus the babies. I just sucked it up and did it. I even got all the babies registered before selling them, but I only had 20. Once the parents are registered, then you can pre-register the clutches. You just send in the parents' reg info and the number of eggs, and you get back as many stickers as you have eggs. Then the new owners can register them. I did it myself, though, because I thought many people would not bother. And then if the snake changes hands, that pedigree is lost. So this way, even if one person doesn't change ownership, a future owner still can. Plus, I like looking at other offspring a snake has produced. My snake's siblings, or half siblings. So- that info is out there if anyone needs it, too.
 
Nanci-- Hmm, you register the hatchlings you produce? I might start doing that. What's the per hatchling cost on that, (it's been awhile since I registered anything.)
 
Dave, you pay for an annual membership, $60, and register as many as you want! And you can do it all on line now.
 
I think that anybody who has 30 Corns and plans on breeding them, will keep some kind of records about their colony and offspring if they are going to be a responsible breeder. I have always kept records of all of my snakes, such as who the breeder was that produced them, their year of birth, sex, and eventually their offspring. I made up my system as I went along. The records where there, but they were not really of any use, because you could not really compare or trace much of anything.

I think there is some value in knowing who the parents of your Corns actually are, instead of only getting information on the morphs that produced them. Sometimes you can get some pretty good info on the female who produced the clutch and what morph the many potential fathers were, but what about info on the generation before that? An ACR registered Corn will have all of the info most people could possibly want, especially as each years breeding season is added year after year. Check out some of the Lava based morphs that are registered with the ACR. In time, as more information is added, the records that go back to the beginning of a morphs discovery will have more value than all of the registration fees combined.

When I first heard about the ACR, I thought that if I could get all of my Corns registered, then perhaps I could make some use out of all of this data that I had been collecting for many years. I had enough paper in boxes, in every conceivable nook and cranny imaginable, that I was able to go back to the beginning, and start registering my founding stock. As I continued registering each of my previous breeding season, I soon began to realize the value the ACR was going to have for me, and to anybody who decides to participate.

What good were the records that I was keeping really. It would have taken me days to really trace any new gene that I happen to discover, and they were of no real use to anybody else. Why do breeders keep records anyway. Is it for their own use, and nothing more. The only real disadvantage of the ACR that I could come up with is not being able to hide things, but I really did not want to be a secret basement breeder anyway. Since you do not have to register you Corns until they are breeding, there is a least a two year lag, and any super secrete projects that you happen to be working on, that nobody else could have possibly conceived of, will have a good two or three year head start.

Now that I have converted to the ACR system, I can tell you that my record keeping has improved dramatically, and it is actually much easier to keep track of everything than the way I was doing it before. It is pretty simple to write the males ACR # on the females cage when he breeds her, and when the female lays her eggs, it is extremely easy to record the parents of the clutch, 2008 X 2005, or what ever it happens to be. I still have to keep separate listings of the clutches, but now that I have the system in place, it will grow before my eyes, year after year.

Many people talk about the extra work or cost that the ACR causes. I have always recorded who the parents of each hatchling were anyway by a clutch number on the lid. Now, they get a sticker. What is the cost of not preserving the records of your Corns? What is the value of your records being preserved when you are gone, or decided that you no longer want to raise Corns? You may not care, but a lot of people do. The contribution you make to the Corn World, will forever be preserved, or you will be forgotten in time. Your name might get in a book, but it would be nice to know that you produced a particular Corn Snake in 2006, 10 years from now. Every year, I find out by chance that many of my Corns are carrying recessive genes. It would sure be nice to know what genes my Corns may be carrying, so I could plan my breedings better. If a Corn you buy is pre-registered with the ACR, you will have all of the info that is possible about any possible het genes it may be carrying. This is of great value to everybody in my opinion. Some people won’t even tell you a Corn is possibly het for this or that gene, unless you pay for the info. If a Corn is het for a gene it is worth more money, and sometimes if they are possibly het for a particular gene they may be as well, but why not pass on the info that a Corn is 50% possibly het for Amel or Anery and all other known genes. Actually, you won’t have to pass on anything except the parents ACR #’s. A buyer can look back in their ancestry and see that one of the Corns in their Corns family tree was het for Blood. This gene could have easily been passed on as het 50% of the time for many generations.

Corn Snake genetics is exploding. We are discovering new genes at a rate that none of us could have imagined a few years ago. We are going to start figuring out much more about our Corns than just the major genes they are carrying. In time, we are going to learn why Corals are pink, and how we can predict how to produce more of them. Are there several separate genes or lineages of Corns that produce pink Corns, but are not compatible when bred together. I think we already know this is the case, but without a system, like the ACR, to permanently keep track of the lineage of Corns, we would be trudging ahead rather blindly, and the information a breeder has taken a lifetime to discover, can be lost forever in an instant. I personally think the ACR and this forum is the best thing that ever happened to Corn Snakes.
It is very odd reading something I wrote so long ago, but I would change very little of it. My ACR lineages are growing each year. I only register my breeders when they produce, and pass on ACR parentage to customers, it is very easy. What you see registered on the ACR is two-three years behind where I am at with my projects.

Once my original breeders were in the system, all I have to do, is add my new breeders each year as they produce and it all links up. Each of my breeders has the ACR number on its lid, or their parents ACR numbers. When I breed a female, I record the males ACR number on the lid. As the females lay, I record the parentage with the eggs. As they hatch, I create an annual clutch record. 2010: Clutch one, ACR 3700 x 2016 (Pied-Sided X Lava Lavender) Both trace back to the origins of my breeders as far as I knew when I bought them or produced them. My Corn Snakes Alive CSA# is the year, and the clutch number. When I combine my clutch records with the ACR, I can answer any question I may have or my customers may have as long as I am alive.


Dave, you pay for an annual membership, $60, and register as many as you want! And you can do it all on line now.
I have every Corn Snake with Sunkissed in their lineage registered and the ACR system keeps track for me. As Stargazers are found, it all links back to the original Kathy Love Sunkissed het Stargazer and all possible hets are located.

I have every Ultra Line Corn Registered and know which have Ultra in their line. I have some Corns with very good locality data, Landrace I like to call them, or as pure as I can possibly keep them. I have all of my morphs registered as well. There is good reason to record the lineage of all of our Corns in my opinion.

The ACR provides a starting point for everything, and what you record today can be analyzed by someone else years down the road. If your interest in Corn Snake is breeding, then the ACR is a good system, and it is public. What you write down today, will back you up tomorrow, or show how you screwed up. It also allows others to look at what you did, and perhaps with a new perspective find solutions to others questions.

$60 dollars a year is very little for this valuable service for a breeder. I only register my stuff, and don’t work Chuck to death, with my production. If customers want to register their new Corns they can easily with the parents ACR numbers provided, or choose not to participate.
 
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