Are we killing the future market?

[Roy Munson]

Why would you want a gay Tessera? If you meant homozygous (instead of visual), nobody is getting one of those if that's a super form.....lol..

Hah! And Wade calls ME pedantic... :grin01:

But if you sold me gay Tesseras, you wouldn't have to worry about my questionable corn breeder ethics.

 

[Vinman]

No Rich did not say that as Roy clearly stated. The link dont lie that Roy posted . people will make there own decision when they read the post. All you silver toung talking can't cover up what is writen in black & white.

Now I cant help that you are not intuitive inough to make a decision on who to sell to and how many high end animals you can sell before they become left overs. It is realy sad you come here and criticize some that has used guidelines that have worked . You have no ideas because you can't fantom the idea because your lack of exp. as a breeder/seller. Your post prove that. You have no conseption of what to do to help the situation at hand. So all you could do to make up for you incompetence if try to put down other people ideas to make yourself look smarter than you realy are:dancer::dancer::dancer:

 

[Roy Munson]

OK, enough people. We don't need finger pointing and recriminations. This is NOT the BOI. Anyone continuing to be combative and accusatory in this thread is going to get a vacation from here.

Please be careful how you discuss this topic. It's a good topic, and worthy of discussion, but it must be conducted according to Rich's directives.

 

[Vinman]

Hah! And Wade calls ME pedantic... :grin01:

But if you sold me gay Tesseras, you wouldn't have to worry about my questionable corn breeder ethics.

Buy maybe what you are going to do with it:sidestep:

 

[Roy Munson]

Buy maybe what you are going to do with it:sidestep:

Hah! My general ethics haven't degraded to the point where I practice bestiality... yet. :noevil:

 

[Vinman]

I completely understand this view IF you are viewing my words in the worst possible light. When I said that I would do what I like with my animals, I meant it. But then again, EVERYONE does what they want. I actually agree with you on many of your points, and I've operated in my VERY limited experiences as a snake seller in a way that you would find acceptable.

Personally, I've been very worried about the under-cutting issue and I've been disappointed in the past by crashing markets for morphs. But that's the way it is. There's no corn cartel, and there never will be. The market will always have negative aspects. I'm not going to tilt at that windmill.


I don't disagree with any of this. But part of the problem with corns is that they're so darned easy to produce. So you have thousands of hobbyist-breeders who just aren't going to conform to the market ideals promoted by a "food on the table" guy like you. And who's the biggest "food on the table" guy in cornsnakes? I'd have to say that it's Rich Z.. Rich will sell me the highest-priced, highest-end corn snake he has available this season, regardless of whether he thinks I'm a nasty undercutter. He'll sell that snake to whoever PayPals him the money first! Why? Because Rich probably has a realistic business model, and his "food on the table" business model probably takes into account the fact that the market is volatile and uncontrollable. I'd like to hear other "food on the table" breeders' opinions.

I might also question why the hobbyists are responsible for maintaining market conditions that are most favorable to "food on the table" guys? I think it would be nice, but are they obligated? Why?


I'm glad I posted the link too. I think the original comment is open to multiple interpretations. I never said that your interpretation was wrong, just that I didn't agree with it. However, I didn't think it was a dead issue at all, or I wouldn't have posted the link. If Rich thinks I made a poor decision by posting that link, he certainly knows how to contact me!

I know you are a stright up guy Dean and one of the people I like to talk to on the forum . I think you realize how one little post can leave a bad taste in someones mouth and come back to haunt you . I total agree with your statment below. I think we all made our point about that statment at hand .It is up to each individual to make their own conclusion.

I'm glad I posted the link too. I think the original comment is open to multiple interpretations. I never said that your interpretation was wrong, just that I didn't agree with it.

 

[Vinman]

Hah! My general ethics haven't degraded to the point where I practice bestiality... yet. :noevil:

Ha HA HA I WAS WATING FOR THAT REPLAY. You know I'm only joking . I could not hold back . It was just out there wating for someone to shout it out.

back to topic. I would like to see more of us work together . This is the perfict place to work together. this is the largest cornsnake site on the web. This site has been responceible for changing names of morphs and dismantling myths. This site after all these years is still the cutting edge cornsnake site. Standers have been set here many times before and will contune in the future. What better place for cornsnake breeders to converse about the future market and how to keep prices from dropping before their time

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Well, if all breeders had the same degree of respect for one another it might work. But when one breeder goes around accusing another of undercutting, or someone is posting on someone else's for sale thread to question the morph, then it's a lot to ask for everyone to suddenly band together and work together to agree on the prices. If you want other people to work with you, then you treat them right. If you go around pushing their buttons no telling what they might decide to do. And what about the breeders who will not frequent this site for one reason or another? How you gonna get them in the loop?
P.S. you do not want to know how little I paid for my het cinder male. I bought it on one of Rich's surplus breeders sale in late 06. I'm sure he had his reasons for selling at that price. You going to question it when it's another breeder selling kinda low, or just Carol?

 

[stephen]

WOW!

I wonder why this sounds so familiar :But when one breeder goes around accusing another of undercutting, or someone is posting on someone else's for sale thread to question the morph, then it's a lot to ask for everyone to suddenly band together and work together to agree on the prices.
This is a BIG reason why I dont post much or have many replys to others posts.
When I explained my neons, others knew more about the morph that I had been working with for years. They knew how it was produced, but never even had a cornsnake of its kind.
Then others asking for advice and it is given, only for that person to do what they wanted to do anyway and then cry that there corn has died!
:shrugs:

 

[Vinman]

There was nothing wrong with my posts . It just brings to light one of the many problems plaguing this topic.

If you use common sence that you will see why Rich had to pice the way he did . I like I said the tone was set for the down fall pricing of the morph. You can defend your friend all you want . All has been said already all you are doing is rehashing it instead of letting die. As the thread gets longer more people will be drawn to it. They always hit the first and last posts before reading the whole thread . Keep rehashing It realy smart on your part . Keep bringing it up because you are doing more damage not making anything any better. Sorry that is not how it works stick around awhile and see how the nittty gritty realy is. Like my mom always told me just because they do wrong does not mean it is alright for you to do it to. The more you educate breeders in business edict the better it is as a whole. You cant change everyone but they also can get blacklisted as I seen before. There is a lot more to the business side of this than you realize. Word spreads a lot more than you know about undercutting . I have herd many breeders that wont seel to other breeders for a number of reasons. Like over producing, undercutting, or questionable purity of the animals they would bred them too.

 

[Eli173]

I have a question in regards to the more common morphs. I have a cluch of butter motley and golddust motley hatchlings from late last year. I didn't even put them up for sale because I saw adds on KS that had super low prices and on top of that the ads just sat there (and were still sitting there last I checked). Not wanting to make things worse, I decided to hold on to them untill spring in hopes of getting a fair price then.
This brings me to my question. What amount of a deduction is reasonable for the "nobody factor"? If Rich is asking $100, would it be inappropriate for me (a complete nobody) to ask $85, $75? What is a reasible percentage/deduction? I don't expect to be able to fetch the same price as Rich Z (for now at least ) but I don't want to undercut prices either. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Vinman]

I wonder why this sounds so familiar :But when one breeder goes around accusing another of undercutting, or someone is posting on someone else's for sale thread to question the morph, then it's a lot to ask for everyone to suddenly band together and work together to agree on the prices.
This is a BIG reason why I dont post much or have many replys to others posts.
When I explained my neons, others knew more about the morph that I had been working with for years. They knew how it was produced, but never even had a cornsnake of its kind.
Then others asking for advice and it is given, only for that person to do what they wanted to do anyway and then cry that there corn has died!
:shrugs:

we got to start somewhere. There got to be some guidelines set.

that sucks about the neon. I don't even know what a neon is was this morph renamed?

 

[Vinman]

I have a question in regards to the more common morphs. I have a cluch of butter motley and golddust motley hatchlings from late last year. I didn't even put them up for sale because I saw adds on KS that had super low prices and on top of that the ads just sat there (and were still sitting there last I checked). Not wanting to make things worse, I decided to hold on to them untill spring in hopes of getting a fair price then.
This brings me to my question. What amount of a deduction is reasonable for the "nobody factor"? If Rich is asking $100, would it be inappropriate for me (a complete nobody) to ask $85, $75? What is a reasible percentage/deduction? I don't expect to be able to fetch the same price as Rich Z (for now at least ) but I don't want to undercut prices either. Any thoughts on this?

I dont think RZ or anybody here will say anything about a few bucks on a few animals of a morph that has been around a long time. Just price your animals compatible to everybody else. Being new I think that it take much respect to do what you did. Like I say newbe or old pro the price is the price . Start having the lowest prices on every animal for sale then it might raise a few eyebrows. Have fath in yourself you can get the same buck if your animals are good quilty. If the are not so nice colored or messed up pattren then I would price a little lower than normal. When morphs have been around as long as they have price depends on the grade of the animal for sale.

 

[Roy Munson]

This brings me to my question. What amount of a deduction is reasonable for the "nobody factor"? If Rich is asking $100, would it be inappropriate for me (a complete nobody) to ask $85, $75?

I don't know if anyone can answer this question. There are so many factors and variables to consider. It's not as black and white as some may have you believe. If your breeding stock all comes from Don Soderberg, why are Rich's prices entering your equation at all (unless you are selling HERE, which introduces another set of complex variables)? Don and Rich aren't completely consistent in their pricing. The market will determine your pricing. When you just can't justify keeping those hatchlings around any longer, you may find your own set of guidelines for pricing.

What is a reasible percentage/deduction? I don't expect to be able to fetch the same price as Rich Z (for now at least ) but I don't want to undercut prices either. Any thoughts on this?

Charge Rich Z. prices to begin with, and discount as market forces dictate.

 

[Vinman]

I don't know if anyone can answer this question. There are so many factors and variables to consider. It's not as black and white as some may have you believe. If your breeding stock all comes from Don Soderberg, why are Rich's prices entering your equation at all (unless you are selling HERE, which introduces another set of complex variables)? Don and Rich aren't completely consistent in their pricing. The market will determine your pricing. When you just can't justify keeping those hatchlings around any longer, you may find your own set of guidelines for pricing.


Charge Rich Z. prices to begin with, and discount as market forces dictate.

Well said Roy points given

 

[carol]

If you use common sence that you will see why Rich had to pice the way he did . I like I said the tone was set for the down fall pricing of the morph.

How is it my fault that Rich was offering these for $2,000 a pair for a limited time six months before I advertised one pair for $3,000? How did my post magically cause him to run a 50% off sale six months before I even posted it? I have produced a very SMALL amount of Cinders since that post. I only had the one pair for sale at the time of the post. In 2006, I had a temp spike in the snake room and probably only produced about 6 homo animals and I did keep some. Before 2007 he pretty much had the market all to himself minus about six LBR Cinders. I just won't swallow that the competition of my six animals or my one post had any effect on the market. How can there be a price war when I only sold about six animals over two years? You may have been to blind to see this and gotten scared off by my post (which I did express regret for) but that doesn't mean everyone else saw it your way. It doesn't seem like many are seeing it your way now. By the time I really had enough to be advertiseing in 2007, Rich had already dropped the price.
If you ask me if he ran a 50% off sale for a month and still had animals by November, it may be that he bred more than the market could bare at that price. My one little pair for sale was just a drop in the bucket.
I don't buy your "tone" arguement. You are the only one here admitting to not investing in Cinders because of it.
You've been around awhile, I'm sure you remember the "Lavender/Mocha" tone. That was one million times the bad "tone" as my one thoughtless remark. Yet, you either have Lavs or have had them in the past.
Joe P doesn't have a good "tone" right now, anyone not buying Lavas?
And again, who says the Cinder market is hurting? I'm sold out.

Keep rehashing It realy smart on your part . Keep bringing it up because you are doing more damage not making anything any better.

How should that scare us when we all know you'll bring it up in three years anyway?

You say "it goes to show what will haunt you" but it really shows how far you will go to haunt people.

 

[carol]

This brings me to my question. What amount of a deduction is reasonable for the "nobody factor"? If Rich is asking $100, would it be inappropriate for me (a complete nobody) to ask $85, $75? What is a reasible percentage/deduction? I don't expect to be able to fetch the same price as Rich Z (for now at least ) but I don't want to undercut prices either. Any thoughts on this?

It's the ultimate catch 22 isn't it?

 

[Vinman]

How is it my fault that Rich was offering these for $2,000 a pair for a limited time six months before I advertised one pair for $3,000? How did my post magically cause him to run a 50% off sale six months before I even posted it? I have produced a very SMALL amount of Cinders since that post. I only had the one pair for sale at the time of the post. In 2006, I had a temp spike in the snake room and probably only produced about 6 homo animals. Before 2007 he pretty much had the market all to himself minus about six LBR Cinders. I just won't swallow that the competition of my six animals or my one post had any effect on the market. How can there be a price war when I only sold about six animals over two years? You may have been to blind to see this and gotten scared off by my post (which I did express regret for) but that doesn't mean everyone else saw it your way. It doesn't seem like many are seeing it your way now. By the time I really had enough to be advertiseing in 2007, Rich had already dropped the price.
If you ask me if he ran a 50% off sale for a month and still had animals by November, it may be that he bred more than the market could bare at that price. My one little pair for sale was just a drop in the bucket.
I don't buy your "tone" arguement. You are the only one here admitting to not investing in Cinders because of it.
You've been around awhile, I'm sure you remember the "Lavender/Mocha" tone. That was one million times the bad "tone" as my one thoughtless remark. Yet, you either have Lavs or have had them in the past.
Joe P doesn't have a good "tone" right now, anyone not buying Lavas?



How should that scare us when we all know you'll bring it up in three years anyway?

You say "it goes to show what will haunt you" but it really shows how far you will go to haunt people.

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No. it was a passing mention that your buddy blew it up and you kept going on.
Thats right I speak the truth . Scare nothing if you dont think people talk about eachother bad dealings then you live in a glass bubble . It was just a mention it was no big deal, Like myself or anyone has not made a mistake or made a bad call in life. Like I said, you could made a smart move and just said it was a bad judgement call and moved on . No one would have thought anything bad . Again we all make mistakes. On the same post I also go on to say that you have good animals, thust worthy, stand behind you animals and would recomend customers to you. I did not put the words in your mouth to deny it. That was your call now take responsibility for your actions in stead of making excuesses. Sorry, that Flakey attitude may fly in CA but it dont fly in NYC .

You can ask Rich I tried to talk to the guy that was saying the mocha and the lavender was a different gene. I had long talks with the guy and RZ. He did not grasp the consept.

Now you bring up Joe P. Lavas are out there in many collections way before he got a bad name. I was stuned when Rich H told me he was going through Joe. I would never give JoeP. a dime of business. I lossed all respect for him. I wonder if he settled with RH yet?

 

[Roy Munson]

Sorry, that Flakey attitude may fly in CA but it dont fly in NYC .

Not acceptable here, Vin. You should know that. I don't want to see any more -er- stuff like this. I've spent enough time in NY to know that CA doesn't have exclusivity rights on flakes. No more regional generalizations.

 

[carol]

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No. it was a passing mention that your buddy blew it up and you kept going on.

Well you Vin, should know more than anyone the damage a passing mention could cause. It could ruin an entire market.