ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
Good job finding the quote, I tried several times. I don't know if that's the one either..with that little winking smiley at the end it kind of looked like a joke.
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Are we killing the future market?
- Thread starter mike17l
- Start date
Nanci
Alien Lover
Thanks for digging it up. Looks kind of like a pair discount, to me.
Vinman
Vinman
I have not tested enough animals to see any kind of "het" clues.
Rich has a $2,000 price tag on them. I have a pair I'd be willing to part with for $3,000.
that is a 500 dollor cut in price per animal and no animals sold yet. So already a 1000 off in price on a pair and none even up for sale yet. Now I would take that as a hit . the fact to mention rich is selling them for 4 grand a pair and she can give them for 3 is low balling rich right on his own site on a brand new gene morph. I'm sorry that is disrespect in my book. What a better way to ruin a project than to make people unsure how the market is going to be. It screams price war and unstable pricing to me and some other breeders I know. The right thing to do was to call up RZ and set a price whether they were on good terms or not . It would only have benifited them both. That was a undercut if I ever seen one. I hope we can all learn from this. Even though is is a dirty past in this fourm's history, it needed to be brought up in this thread. It is only one part of the reason why the market is unstable.
By the way I got the price right per animal. I said she under cut him by 500 bucks a snake The wording was pretty close . Let take this for what it is . It is plain for all of us to see if you put your self in RZ shoes. Rich took a very high road . I'm sorry Carol This was not a witch hunt on you but I know what I read. We all make mistakes I know I made my fair share in life. Other than this, Like I said you are a good breeder, have great animals and I herd you stand behind what you sell. I stand behind that statment.
The yellow rat X speckled king piar I got off you are doing great. I'm going to breed the male to a jungle corn. I dont want to fight with you I hope we can put this past us.
carol
Down with the sickness
Thanks Dean!
I can see how some people could take my post in the wrong way. Anyone who's dealt with me knows that sneaky and ruthless is something I'm not. I had no intentions of undercutting Rich in that post. Dean asked about pricing and only two people had some for sale at that time so I posted both options. Since I already had someone asking just me, I guess it would have been better to just say what I was asking for them and not to mention Rich at all. It's not like Dean did not know how to check Serpenco.com.
However, it was more of an attempt to let him know his choices. Who on earth thinks they can always fetch the same price as Rich Z? Doesn't one's reputation add value to their stock? Especially at that time I was not very well known and Rich was a giant.
It's funny how one action can be seen two completely different ways. I think it would take a lot of balls for a no name breeder to ask for the same price as a giant, but it seems a lot of others think it would take a lot of balls to ask for less. :shrugs:
I still don't see anything that would validate Vin's claims that I am a ruthless undercutter or that I was the first to drop prices. That post was made on November 5, 2005. Check out the sale Rich ran in May of 2005...
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21215&highlight=sale
At that point you could have landed a pair of Cinders from Rich for $2000 so why is my $3000 price the "beginning" of the drop in Cinder prices? He had already advertised animals for $1,000 less than my asking price six months prior, so how was I the undercutter?
Lesson learned, when someone asks about pricing... only quote your own prices.
I can see how some people could take my post in the wrong way. Anyone who's dealt with me knows that sneaky and ruthless is something I'm not. I had no intentions of undercutting Rich in that post. Dean asked about pricing and only two people had some for sale at that time so I posted both options. Since I already had someone asking just me, I guess it would have been better to just say what I was asking for them and not to mention Rich at all. It's not like Dean did not know how to check Serpenco.com.
However, it was more of an attempt to let him know his choices. Who on earth thinks they can always fetch the same price as Rich Z? Doesn't one's reputation add value to their stock? Especially at that time I was not very well known and Rich was a giant.
It's funny how one action can be seen two completely different ways. I think it would take a lot of balls for a no name breeder to ask for the same price as a giant, but it seems a lot of others think it would take a lot of balls to ask for less. :shrugs:
I still don't see anything that would validate Vin's claims that I am a ruthless undercutter or that I was the first to drop prices. That post was made on November 5, 2005. Check out the sale Rich ran in May of 2005...
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21215&highlight=sale
At that point you could have landed a pair of Cinders from Rich for $2000 so why is my $3000 price the "beginning" of the drop in Cinder prices? He had already advertised animals for $1,000 less than my asking price six months prior, so how was I the undercutter?
Lesson learned, when someone asks about pricing... only quote your own prices.
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ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
I have seen a few people complain about the price of the Cinders and oversaturated market for them here and there. Which I really don't understand. How many people are selling them? Here in the US three that I know of, Rich, Carol, and I believe Danny had a couple. What I don't get is how do you figure the market for them is ruined? We haven't even seen all the combos they can make.
If you compare their prices to some other new genes which are priced beyond the reach of a lot of us, what morph do you think a newer breeder with a little money to invest is going to be buying. Sorry but $2000 for a corn snake is a little too rich for my blood. If only a few breeders have something and want to keep it to themselves, more power to them. I am super excited to have Cinder in my collection even though only in het form for now. If other people think it's not worth working with because the price has fallen, then IMO they are breeding snakes for the wrong reason.
If you compare their prices to some other new genes which are priced beyond the reach of a lot of us, what morph do you think a newer breeder with a little money to invest is going to be buying. Sorry but $2000 for a corn snake is a little too rich for my blood. If only a few breeders have something and want to keep it to themselves, more power to them. I am super excited to have Cinder in my collection even though only in het form for now. If other people think it's not worth working with because the price has fallen, then IMO they are breeding snakes for the wrong reason.
Roy Munson
New member
You're welcome, Carol. I think Nanci's view falls in line with mine. You were posting your pair price. Yeah, it may have been better to leave Rich's single-snake price out of it, but as you stated, I was certainly capable of visiting Serpenco (and in fact, I already knew Rich's price).
I find some aspects of this discussion to be kind of silly. I'll sell a snake for whatever I bleepin' please, and I'm not going to call any of you, or anyone else for approval. The price I can get is the value of the snake. And this is a small industry, at least the corn corner of it. I'll sell snakes to friends at way-below-market prices. Most people do this. Is it bad for the market? Yeah, maybe. And selling your '98 Accord to your nephew for $1 hurts used-car sellers too. Oh well. I'll still sleep tonight...
I find some aspects of this discussion to be kind of silly. I'll sell a snake for whatever I bleepin' please, and I'm not going to call any of you, or anyone else for approval. The price I can get is the value of the snake. And this is a small industry, at least the corn corner of it. I'll sell snakes to friends at way-below-market prices. Most people do this. Is it bad for the market? Yeah, maybe. And selling your '98 Accord to your nephew for $1 hurts used-car sellers too. Oh well. I'll still sleep tonight...
carol
Down with the sickness
OK so I'm not done. I really want anyone who reads this thread to think about how they would feel if Vinman made the same acusations to you. I made one stupid post with no ill intent, it just wasn't given enough thought and was over 3 YEARS ago. Hardly enough for anyone to say I make a habit and point to undercut.
The facts show that at that time and now, I try to stay a little lower than Rich out of respect but his sale prices have often bested mine.
The facts show that at that time and now, I try to stay a little lower than Rich out of respect but his sale prices have often bested mine.
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KJUN
Well-known member
Now, you know better than that, Dean. You've been instructed not to blink without checking for approval from me first. Trust me - I know what is best for you.
Roy Munson
New member
Well, hurry up! My eyes are gettin' dry! :bang:
Roy Munson
New member
I'd feel terrible. I think that a lot was read into a short, simple reply that no one could remember clearly anyway. I certainly would NEVER level an accusation like that at anyone without citing the real source, and even then, I would make darned sure that I was presenting my conclusions accurately.
I like the Vinman, and he knows it, but I think that by publicizing his trumped-up and negative view of your business practices, he has done a worse thing than the worst interpretation of your motives in answering my pricing question in that ancient thread. Just my opinion, of course...
Vinman
Vinman
I dont think aanything I said was trumped . it is clear as day Roy . Dont be suprissed if you want a cutting edge morph and some breeder says no . The statment you made about you will charge any bleeping thing you want may hurt you chances of getting cutting edge morph.. That attitude is what is killing the market. The total disrespect for the person that put all that time into a project just to have som,eone lowball the price on them. It is all about respect. I have seen breeders refusse to sell other breeders snakes just for that reason. I'm bot just talking corns.
I like you to Roy But I stand by my statement, it was wrong plain and simple. I dont care how you dress it up . it was a under cut more so that names were used. If you were in rich's place you would not have liked it, none of us would like it, I said it set the tone for the project down fall in price.
KJ I know you are working on that new Tessera Cornsnake mutation . Would you sell me any of the animals from that project if you knew that I would sell them for anything I want when I had babies? Please answer
I like you to Roy But I stand by my statement, it was wrong plain and simple. I dont care how you dress it up . it was a under cut more so that names were used. If you were in rich's place you would not have liked it, none of us would like it, I said it set the tone for the project down fall in price.
KJ I know you are working on that new Tessera Cornsnake mutation . Would you sell me any of the animals from that project if you knew that I would sell them for anything I want when I had babies? Please answer
Roy Munson
New member
It's clear as day to you, I guess. To me, there were a few ways that Carol's reply could have been interpreted. Of course, I had the benefit of reading what she had actually posted before I attempted to interpret her words. You interpreted your recollection of her words/actions in the worst possible light and publicly presented it. I don't agree with your interpretation of her motives, actions, and business practices. Rich's opinion seems to be somewhere in between. That's ok. We don't need to agree. But I think that it would have been a good idea if her post had actually been cited before you attacked her. I took great effort to find her real words so that I could draw my own conclusions. I posted them so that others could draw their own conclusions.
I WILL be surprised. My money's never been turned away by anyone yet. But it's not much of an issue. I won't be purchasing much, if anything, from anyone anyway. My "collecting" phase is over. Heck, my breeding phase may be almost over...
I'll let you know if it happens. I'm not going to hold my breath.
I'm sure you're NOT just talking about corns. The corn market is different. But I've heard all of your complaints from the BP people too. To me, all the respect I owe to a breeder is to hand them the cash that I agreed to give them. The animal is mine after that, and I'll do with it what I please.
If I were Rich, I wouldn't have worried about it much. I got into cinders early knowing the price would plummet. That's the way it goes.
I'd like to ask KJ if he'll supply me with a homo Tessera if I ask for one, considering my comments in this thread...
Vinman
Vinman
I love you death but I would not . That is just me, I will keep a mental note of it just like I did for this instance. I will be the person that will tell the breeder these thing if I'm investing in that morph. Just like I did with Zee and his golden corn. Now maybe you are at the end of your breeding and keeping but this puts food on my table. I'm not a fly by nighter. I been doing this since 1985. You may not care, but I do because I plan on doing this till the day I cant, because I'm too febile to do it. So yes when you look at this from a my point of view or any of us that invest in high dollar animils There is some edict when pricing a new morph. Yes ruined . The price was set at 2000 abd they did not sell for that . I know they would have. I dont know if it hurt Rich's overseas market. I'm sure the price he got was not what he was going to get. This is just what I'm talking about, respect . I dont care if you hate someone or you love them. You have to keep price unified when a project is cutting edge. It only benifits your investments I ask rich what was he charging for the HLB before I set a price . Since even though I got the lavender by accendent Rich sold me so many multi hets subadults and adults. Out of respect for him I keept my prices in check only if a good friend wanted something I hook them up on a one time deal and not on the public forum for all to see.
I gald you posted the link . I'm sure a lot of people will see like I do but may only admit it outside the forum. If anything it was best to not post it because it was a dead issue and we went passed it but you post brought up from the grave when RZ wanted it to be put to sleep
KJUN
Well-known member
I'm curious to see how KJ really answers this when he gets time for a long post later, too. Ooooh, I can see me quiver with antici.........pation.
Why would you want a gay Tessera? If you meant homozygous (instead of visual), nobody is getting one of those if that's a super form.....lol..
Why would you want a gay Tessera? If you meant homozygous (instead of visual), nobody is getting one of those if that's a super form.....lol..
carol
Down with the sickness
Vinman said:
No doubt, you've taken the cake. Like Dean said, in this thread alone you've said many things that were much more harmful than my one 3 year old stupid post. One post does not equal one's business practices. In order for something to be a practice it has to be intentional and happen more than once.
Rich had these animals on sale for $2,000 a pair up until July 2005. How did my $3,000 per pair price in Novemeber 2005 on the ONE and ONLY pair of Cinders I had available keep Rich from getting his asking price?
As far as overseas, you would not believe the discounts overseas people ask me for because "Rich gives it to us". I for one have no idea if these people where telling the truth about these discounts, but I simply can not offer these discounts because it would increase my overseas sales to a point where I could not hold on to and care for all the animals for months waiting for Hamm because my business is a one room operation, not a "snake building" operation. Rich has worked hard for a nice set up. I don't think he has anything to worry about. I also don't believe Cinders have dropped faster than any other morph.
Nanci
Alien Lover
If you meant homozygous (instead of visual), nobody is getting one of those if that's a super form.....lol..
Yet ...
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
Deano, thanks for digging that up.
Carol, no needs to worry, the Vinster doesn't "get it" and there were plenty of pieces of proof that you're not an undercutter (something the rest of us already knew) during my personal search for that particular thread.
KJ, looking forward to your thoughts on the subject. :eek1:
The "mighty-mighty" vinster:
A. You STILL haven't directly and specifically answered my questions. If you want to point fingers in specifics, best start answering questions with specifics, and
B. Drop it already as Rich has stated quite clearly that Carol isn't guilty of undercutting him.
D80
Carol, no needs to worry, the Vinster doesn't "get it" and there were plenty of pieces of proof that you're not an undercutter (something the rest of us already knew) during my personal search for that particular thread.
KJ, looking forward to your thoughts on the subject. :eek1:
The "mighty-mighty" vinster:
A. You STILL haven't directly and specifically answered my questions. If you want to point fingers in specifics, best start answering questions with specifics, and
B. Drop it already as Rich has stated quite clearly that Carol isn't guilty of undercutting him.
D80
Vinman
Vinman
You need to wipe your face Drizz you still got some of that christmas fudge around your mouth.
Roy Munson
New member
I completely understand this view IF you are viewing my words in the worst possible light. When I said that I would do what I like with my animals, I meant it. But then again, EVERYONE does what they want. I actually agree with you on many of your points, and I've operated in my VERY limited experiences as a snake seller in a way that you would find acceptable.
Personally, I've been very worried about the under-cutting issue and I've been disappointed in the past by crashing markets for morphs. But that's the way it is. There's no corn cartel, and there never will be. The market will always have negative aspects. I'm not going to tilt at that windmill.
I don't disagree with any of this. But part of the problem with corns is that they're so darned easy to produce. So you have thousands of hobbyist-breeders who just aren't going to conform to the market ideals promoted by a "food on the table" guy like you. And who's the biggest "food on the table" guy in cornsnakes? I'd have to say that it's Rich Z.. Rich will sell me the highest-priced, highest-end corn snake he has available this season, regardless of whether he thinks I'm a nasty undercutter. He'll sell that snake to whoever PayPals him the money first! Why? Because Rich probably has a realistic business model, and his "food on the table" business model probably takes into account the fact that the market is volatile and uncontrollable. I'd like to hear other "food on the table" breeders' opinions.
I might also question why the hobbyists are responsible for maintaining market conditions that are most favorable to "food on the table" guys? I think it would be nice, but are they obligated? Why?
I'm glad I posted the link too. I think the original comment is open to multiple interpretations. I never said that your interpretation was wrong, just that I didn't agree with it. However, I didn't think it was a dead issue at all, or I wouldn't have posted the link. If Rich thinks I made a poor decision by posting that link, he certainly knows how to contact me!