Are we killing the future market?

[Chip]

What is a reasible percentage/deduction? I don't expect to be able to fetch the same price as Rich Z (for now at least ) but I don't want to undercut prices either. Any thoughts on this?

My two cents: If my animals are of the same quality as a "big breeder's," they are offered for the same price. I've only dealt with a handful of morphs, but I ask the going price and usually move everything (a few times via trade). I'll drop the price a little or throw in shipping if I am eager to get rid of them, but your animals aren't worth less because your last name isn't Z, Soderberg, or Love! Worst case, I grow them out for a few months. Really; if Rich is asking $100, I'd ask $100. By the time the spring shows come along, I'll have big fat snakes for the same prices that people are putting down deposits on for hatchlings. I've never had anyone tell me I should lower my price because I don't do this for a living.

 

[Vinman]

Well you Vin, should know more than anyone the damage a passing mention could cause. It could ruin an entire market.

A under cut in price yes. But what I said was so minor Anyone of us has fumbled in life. That along with the fact that I gave you a great complement in the post . Just so no one would think bad of you. Honest. The fact someone had to fight your battles for you instead of telling you and letting you handdle it like the big girl you are. They were very diligent about it. I had do defend my statment. They blew it up. I think you could have put a end to it by saying you said it instead of deny it. Like I have stated it was a low blow but not the worst thing one can do. I'm sure we all have had a little bad things pop back up .

 

[Vinman]

Carol this is the post that I first mention your name

Like I said pick and chose your customers. I'll give you ag gosd EXP. Carol at low belly reptiles . A very nice person, Has great animals has been know to do the right thing wnen someone has a problem , is a big breeder. Would I sell her a new gene morph. NO, why if she if so reputable. One reason and one reason only She is a under cutter. Thats right . I would have to protect myself and my investment. Carol had got the cinder gene by accedent. She produced the animal as a fluke the parents were traced back to RZ stock. Rich Z had already produced the same new gene morph and set a high price on the animal. In stead of setting the price with Rich, she went on a thread that RZ posted on and right out in the open view of everyone told Rich she was going under cut him and had the BALLS to do it on his own forum. Now we were not talking a few dollars we were talking a huge chunck of the price. Why would anyone want to sell a new gene to a big breeder with that mind set. I dont care how cool the person is but with that statment I have to look out for myself and my customers investment.

You go CHIP

My two cents: If my animals are of the same quality as a "big breeder's," they are offered for the same price. I've only dealt with a handful of morphs, but I ask the going price and usually move everything (a few times via trade). I'll drop the price a little or throw in shipping if I am eager to get rid of them, but your animals aren't worth less because your last name isn't Z, Soderberg, or Love! Worst case, I grow them out for a few months. Really; if Rich is asking $100, I'd ask $100. By the time the spring shows come along, I'll have big fat snakes for the same prices that people are putting down deposits on for hatchlings. I've never had anyone tell me I should lower my price because I don't do this for a living.

You go boy , Thats the way it is

 

[carol]

Yes, I'm very aware of the post.

" right out in the open view of everyone told Rich she was going under cut him "

I pointed out our current prices and mine were lower. It WAS a mistake to mention Rich at all. However here you made it seem like I said "Whatever you price them at I'll sell them cheaper". Which wasn't true at all because Rich himself had already sold them cheaper than my posted price.

"and what about all the customers that rich sold his animals to. Did thay deserve to be sold out because she had a little minor beef with rich . Did they do anything to deserve having their investment runned."

Again, I can't buy this statement all because I offered one pair of animals for sale that was smack dab in the middle of Rich's sale price and regular price. You also told people I had a beef with Rich which is not true either. When asked about my pricing I wish I had only mentioned myself but it was not a mistake that deserved your comments that I AM an under cutter.

"Rich was saying how much would be selling cinder hatchlings for and you said that you were going to undersell him"

"You clearly told rich you were going under cut him"

NO, again. I mentioned both our prices but I did not even remotely believe this would cause any harm to Rich Z, nor do I believe it did besides being annoyed and I have already apologized to him for that.

"it was a attack on him"

Really, an attack?

I am sorry that I left myself open for being misunderstood, but I'm not sorry I fought these comments above. I do not think the Cinder market has come down any faster than many other morphs before it. I do not accept your claims that I single handedly bombed everyone's prices for reasons I've already stated. I definitely don't make a habit of it like you implied.

It is truly ironic that someone who brings up a three year old comment asks people to let your comments go with out responding. It's truly ironic that you then pass it off as a passing comment.

How come you deserve to brush off a mistake after you've so diligently held me to mine?

How easily could you have made your point without bringing up names and an OLD post and then continuing on by making ridiculous claims on it's effects?

 

[Drizzt80]

You need to wipe your face Drizz you still got some of that christmas fudge around your mouth.

Thanks God it's not "January vinster fudge", I'm allergic to leopard print. Once again you have expertly avoid answering straight questions with straight answers. :nope:

No Rich did not say that as Roy clearly stated.

Yes, Rich did say that as you continually REFUSE to read other people's posts: (PS. It's in black and gray, not white . . . ) (bolding is mine)

Personally I felt it was not appropriate, but did not have any reason to make an issue about it. And now, I don't believe it is worth making an issue over at this late date neither.

Now, I don't have anything at all against Carol because of the above mentioned incident, nor anyone else who undercuts my prices. That's just the way it is.

I have herd many breeders that wont seel to other breeders for a number of reasons. Like over producing, undercutting, or questionable purity of the animals they would bred them too.

Stop speaking vaguely. Who are these other breeders that you've aligned with and who are we supposed to blacklist, and why?

You've reached a new level of ridiculousness v-ster. :nope:
D80

 

[Vinman]

I made my point to you drizz it is all in my last post you. Your redundancy of common sence questions only shows your inexperience as a breeder/seller

I have not tested enough animals to see any kind of "het" clues.

Rich has a $2,000 price tag on them. I have a pair I'd be willing to part with for $3,000.

Carol the fact remaines you are the type of person that will never admit you are wrong . It is all here in black and white . I know a few people just like you never wrong even though they are holding the smoking gun. The point I made was clear the facts were presented in black and white . Just keep belittling yourself as we all know it takes a honest person to admit they are wrong A road you will never take. Stop crying victim You said what you said now man up to the truth.


I have always said I was sorry when I'm wrong . I'm a big enuogh person to admit I wrong. I'm not always right. I dont twist my words around to try to save face because all the dirt comes out in the wash . All you did is to prove to all of us you are preson that has to be right even if your not . Your words speak for themself. all over this post. You did more harm to yourself than any group of people could ever do. Great job you and drizz have done. You took a small comment and snowballed it to a mountain.

 

[Drizzt80]

I dont twist my words around to try to save face because all the dirt comes out in the wash.

Prove it. P-R-O-V-E IT. Show me exactly where I've twisted any words, mine or otherwise. You won't because you can't.

On the other hand, you come here (after stating you wouldn't any longer) spouting about your wonderful amazing tremendous business practice of pushing other people out of business using misinformation under the guise of "helping" the industry while spouting that """""others""""" do the same thing, yet you PROVE none of it!! N-O-N-E, none. Nevermind the failed attempt at slandering Carol's good name. :bang:

D80

 

[Vinman]

:wavey:

Prove it. P-R-O-V-E IT. Show me exactly where I've twisted any words, mine or otherwise. You won't because you can't.

On the other hand, you come here (after stating you wouldn't any longer) spouting about your wonderful amazing tremendous business practice of pushing other people out of business using misinformation under the guise of "helping" the industry while spouting that """""others""""" do the same thing, yet you PROVE none of it!! N-O-N-E, none. Nevermind the failed attempt at slandering Carol's good name. :bang:

D80

Dizz Who was talking to you. This was the only thing I said to you in the post is below in red.Your realy making your self look more and more foolish with every post.

I made my point to you drizz it is all in my last post you. Your redundancy of common sence questions only shows your inexperience as a breeder/seller

Now if you cant help out in what the post is writen about because it is over your head. Spew you garbage somewhere else . We are working on a adult problem in this thread, no time for your foolish Reduntant questions that have very obvious answers. If you cant figure them out then maybe you should answer questions in the newbee section of the forum Bye Bye:wavey:

 

[Drizzt80]

Now if you cant help out in what the post is writen about because it is over your head. Spew you garbage somewhere else . We are working adult problems in this thread no time for you foolish questions Bye Bye

Who exactly made you judge and jury? Here's a webinar on business vinster, it's all you'll really need to know about it.

D80

PS. If my redundant questions are so darned easy, why do you refuse to answer them?

 

[Drizzt80]

maybe you should answer questions in the newbee section of the forum

Oh, and by the way, I do answer questions in the newbee section of the forum. See, I come here to associate with people and have respectful conversations where I back up my information with facts and specifics. Unlike some people (YOU) that have admitted to doing it, I DON'T come here just to try and sell snakes.

D80

PS. This is an example of specific P-R-O-O-F:

Untill there is a feature where you can dissable all the bells a whistles and let the user have a choice ( The American Way Of Life ) I will be conducting my own silent protest. I will no longer participate in fourm threads. I will only just post pic's but not reply to any posts negitve or positive and if I can lock my threads I will do that too. All forsale threads will be locked. Anyone need to contact me . My phone number and email is posted in my comment/message box. As far as I'm conserned The sight will only be used by me to sell animals.

Bye all, Vincent A Ritchie

Good night.

 

[Vinman]

Now we Know your musical taste, it makes so more sence who you are and what you are made of. You make me laugh so hard. I bet you got his poster on your wall :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

Oh, and by the way, I do answer questions in the newbee section of the forum. See, I come here to associate with people and have respectful conversations where I back up my information with facts and specifics. Unlike some people (YOU) that have admitted to doing it, I DON'T come here just to try and sell snakes.

D80

PS. This is an example of specific P-R-O-O-F:


Good night.

it is the only sec you are capable of handling.

Bla Bla bla Diing dang dong. get with the topic or buzz off

 

[Rich Z]

Sheesh, people.......... :bang:

What is this really all about?

How about a confession while I am here? Quite frankly, I don't check ANYONE else's prices before I price my animals. Furthermore, that price can change anytime I get the feeling that the current price is just not working. How do I figure out prices? Well I go by what happened last year. If something sold very quickly, then raise the price a little. If something sold slowly, keep the price where it was initially. If something didn't sell at all, lower the price to see if that starts them moving. Something new to sell this year? Heck, I don't know... Maybe it will sell well at THIS price... Want to move a bunch of mouths out that need feeding every week? Lower the price temporarily with a sale. Pretty much "Marketing 101" sort of stuff.

Now as for new genes getting raped and pillaged by undercutting.... That is pretty much unavoidable. In most instances, a new gene will get distributed to other breeders long before it is discovered at the originating site. So in effect, no sense trying to close the barn door after the horses have escaped. Once you discover it, it's FAR too late to control it. And the absolute ONLY way anyone can control prices on a new genetic line is by being the sole source for them. Now unless you were lucky enough that the new gene spontaneously developed homozygously for you, you will be working with heterozygous animals for a while before the new gene shows up for you. Did you keep ALL of the ancestors that were likely carriers once it pops up out of an egg? Probably not. In most cases, most CERTAINLY not. Unless you are psychic, you wouldn't have had any clues at all about this. Yeah, it's a long shot that it will show up elsewhere either simultaneously or very shortly after YOU discover it, but it CAN and DOES happen. In any event, show up it will eventually, and the new gene has most likely escaped your control before you even know about it.

So what is accomplished by getting all worked up over something like this? Nothing at all, except maybe getting some feelings hurt. You can't do anything about it, neither beforehand, nor after the fact, so what and who is served by crying over spilt milk? When you can't do anything about a situation, and Murphy's Law is having a hand in it anyway, just roll with the punches and laugh at the fickleness of fate. Laughing is much better for the soul than being bitter and angry is.

Ach, I'm tired and not sure I am even making sense..... I know I should proofread the above to make sure I'm not inadvertently pissing off someone, or else sounding like some sort of blathering idiot.

Oh yeah, one last blather..... Yeah I know I do this for a living, but seriously folks, I really don't take this all that SERIOUSLY at all. This is still a hobby to me, although one I work my butt off for, but all in all, this is all just fun and games to me. And isn't this exactly what this SHOULD be? Do we all want to start acting like businessmen in suits conferring with our accountants and attorneys about the best strategy in order to knock out the competition and corner the market? Man, not me..... I plan on retiring from this before I have to start thinking that way. I've made some decent money doing what I love, but quite honestly, this "business" is not composed of as many people who are in it just for the intellectual challenge and fun of it as there used to be. And perhaps this thread is pretty much showing what exactly I am talking about. Seriously, is this sort of discussion really FUN for anyone?

OK, I've deleted enough sentences to know it's time to end.......

 

[Eli173]

I appreciate the responses to my question. I look at tons of ads, it's partly for fun and partly to try an get a small grasp of the allusive "market value." I used Rich Z as an example but I look as his pricing, Don S. and a few others that have what I'm going to sell and are reputable in my opinion. I also try and pay attention to what sells out fast. I average out their prices out consider that top dollar. Then I look at ads at several different places from people I've never heard of offering low prices. That determines bottom price, a bad feeder that isn't that great looking either for example. I was thinking of charging top price for what I would consider a prime example of the morph. Top price would also go for something that sells well, for example some good funky striping on a motley seems to sell pretty fast. Supply and demand right? Well that's why I pay attention to what sells out quickly, not so that I can turn around and try to produce that morph or look. The rest I would price a little bit closer to top dollar then middle dollar. That's the best formula I could come up with on my own and any feedback is appreciated. Pricing is a daunting task. It seems like figuring out the right price is as easy as figuring out why Murphy is so cruel. I'd much rather be cleaning up poop then thinking this hard about pricing, lol.

I do think that the top breeders corns are worth more. To put it simply, their well earned reputations make them less risky of a purchase and that's worth a couple extra bucks. I do plan on putting an add here and a few other places but I'm going to be fairly passive about it. Don't worry, you won't see me bumping my add every day or offering rock bottom prices.
I wish we could have a thread each year discussing what pricing should be for an top example of a morph, given market prices of course. I can only imagine the nightmare that discussion would be...

Sorry this post was so long everyone.

 

[LBoz]

Carol the fact remaines you are the type of person that will never admit you are wrong . It is all here in black and white . I know a few people just like you never wrong even though they are holding the smoking gun. The point I made was clear the facts were presented in black and white . Just keep belittling yourself as we all know it takes a honest person to admit they are wrong A road you will never take. Stop crying victim You said what you said now man up to the truth.

Honestly, dude, how many times do you plan to continue to assualt Carol? I swear that this is like watching a mental psychosis present itself live and in person. The visual you give is of an abuser who continues to beat someone into submission.

"Say it! Say you were were wrong!! (as I pummel you with my superiorness) Say it!!! Saaaaaaayyyyyy iiiiittttttttt!!!!!!

Vin, she said it, she admitted it, she posted incorrectly with absolutely no premeditated malice or intent to undercut Rich. What more do you need to hear? YOU are the only one here who refuses to see her admission because you've worked yourself into such a state that you just can't stop your abuse.

I know that forever on, I'll be placed in your little book of "bad people" and you'll "never sell me one of your prized, best in show, snakes." I'll try hard to gather the pieces of my shattered life and move on.

Now get off Carol's back, spidermonkey!

**mods and admin, I'll take my suspension or banning like a good girl. It was so worth it.**

 

[snakewispera snr]

Honestly, dude, how many times do you plan to continue to assualt Carol? I swear that this is like watching a mental psychosis present itself live and in person. The visual you give is of an abuser who continues to beat someone into submission.

"Say it! Say you were were wrong!! (as I pummel you with my superiorness) Say it!!! Saaaaaaayyyyyy iiiiittttttttt!!!!!!

Vin, she said it, she admitted it, she posted incorrectly with absolutely no premeditated malice or intent to undercut Rich. What more do you need to hear? YOU are the only one here who refuses to see her admission because you've worked yourself into such a state that you just can't stop your abuse.

I know that forever on, I'll be placed in your little book of "bad people" and you'll "never sell me one of your prized, best in show, snakes." I'll try hard to gather the pieces of my shattered life and move on.

Now get off Carol's back, spidermonkey!

**mods and admin, I'll take my suspension or banning like a good girl. It was so worth it.**

Good post Lori, and if they suspend you for writing it they can do me as well for quoting it and supporting you......
Vin.... When the board turned around and attacked you for the 'Facebook' thread, I came out in your corner... I had pm's and sent pm's to explain why I thought people needed to lay off you..... Please do the same for Carol...... This has gone on long enough now......

 

[Vinman]

Mike I have wanted to move on. I posted let get on with the topic at hand more than once. I thought it paassed only to be brought up again. I would like to talk about the topic at hand And get off the carol trip.


I realy think RZ sumed it up realy good in his last post.All i'm saying is lest try to make netter dicissions in who we sell to for cutting edge project.Try to limit production while the economy on big ticket animals. I work with Fish , reptiles, I have seen breeders of lizardes and snakes and African Cichlids. I seen breeders get black listed to get cirten animals by breeders that dont want their projects destroyed.

 

[Vinman]

Honestly, dude, how many times do you plan to continue to assualt Carol? I swear that this is like watching a mental psychosis present itself live and in person. The visual you give is of an abuser who continues to beat someone into submission.

"Say it! Say you were were wrong!! (as I pummel you with my superiorness) Say it!!! Saaaaaaayyyyyy iiiiittttttttt!!!!!!

Vin, she said it, she admitted it, she posted incorrectly with absolutely no premeditated malice or intent to undercut Rich. What more do you need to hear? YOU are the only one here who refuses to see her admission because you've worked yourself into such a state that you just can't stop your abuse.

I know that forever on, I'll be placed in your little book of "bad people" and you'll "never sell me one of your prized, best in show, snakes." I'll try hard to gather the pieces of my shattered life and move on.

Now get off Carol's back, spidermonkey!

**mods and admin, I'll take my suspension or banning like a good girl. It was so worth it.**

I have not taken ofence to this post. Youir intiled to your oppion. I think the spider monkey comment is a little childish and uncalled for It is the only thing I can see wrong with your post

 

[wade]

Vinny we don’t need you to critic the posts on this forum. We don’t need you to over see this industry. You have expended a great deal of energy to offend and alienate all the people who you’d like to call future customers. I can’t imagine a single person who has read this thread would ever consider doing business with you.

We have all heard what you have to say, many times. We all know who you are. Your job is done here. Fly of into the sunset.

 

[Vinman]

Vinny we don’t need you to critic the posts on this forum. We don’t need you to over see this industry. You have expended a great deal of energy to offend and alienate all the people who you’d like to call future customers. I can’t imagine a single person who has read this thread would ever consider doing business with you.

We have all heard what you have to say, many times. We all know who you are. Your job is done here. Fly of into the sunset.

That is your oppion and you are intiled to it. I dont know what future customers you are talking about. I have learned as long as you are honest. It dont make a diferance if they like you are not, so long as you produce great looking animals and stand behind your animals they will sell.

Now as far is your rant is concerned you are falling on deff ears. So take your own advice and crawl into the desert where you belong.

 

[Roy Munson]

Enough! C'mon, guys. I'm surprised Rich didn't start throwing around the ban-hammer when he returned to this thread. Maybe I'll pick it up for him if the personal attacks and name-calling don't stop. There's no reason why this topic can't be discussed civilly.

I think Jeff Mohr's post in this thread (#70) really sums up the reality of the situation very well. Rich's last post does a good job of this as well. Rich is the biggest player in the corn market, and Jeff's no little fish either. They don't seem to be following the "Vin Model" of market strategy, yet I don't think they lose sleep over being blacklisted. The government has a few bigger concerns to deal with than addressing the laissez-faire nature of herp trading markets, so I guess we'll just have to deal with the reality that exists in this unregulated market. We can dream of a day when all corn breeders are "on the same page", but it ain't gonna happen. This may be the biggest corn forum on the web, but you can bet that the vast majority of small hobby breeders out there don't even know it exists. So good luck to those who dream of consensus...