"Blued Steel" Pippies!

[Hurley]

Found a few pics from Josh and Taylor's clutch. Still can't find my whole folder, harrumph.

Don't know how much help these photos will be as my camera suckethed greatly then, but here they are:

 

[dionythicus]

I've got one that I first thought was a ghost when I brought her home from the pet store and I've gone through the "it's a ghost, no it's anery, no it's a ghost, no it's anery" a million times. Now I'm really curious about the blued steel because this one is picking up pink/purple in the saddles and in the sides. Here are some pics from purchase in March to today's outside pics (in blue of course). The first time I posted a hatchling pic, someone mentioned that she looked very much like the blued steel babies. I don't know what to think. I couldn't have gotten that lucky at a pet store, could I?

 

[Candy_Cane1]

For sale

These lavender, purpleish colored snakelets are ADORIBLE! how much would one sell those for? im very interested.

 

[Susan]

I'm all in favor of keeping the "blue" name. I've only added the "steel" part as it hasn't been proven yet that mine are compatable with the others...and to keep hubby happy for awhile. Once the compatibility is proven, I'll adopt the original name of blue motleys, if I don't do it earlier. And the pic of the normal "dilute" motley Joe posted actually looks like the color has been "blued" as well as diluted, so using that name may actually still fit with all the color combos...if the "bluing" holds true in them as well.

And Candy Cane1, any of mine are currently not for sale. I'm not sure who may have any blue motleys for sale, but you can try Bayou Reptiles. I think they are currently selling them as their "light phase" anery motleys (price is $125), but ask just to be sure if they're the same as the blue motleys.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Recovered Blue Motleys

I just received this email from Rob at Bayou Reptile. If you ask me, this clutch proves that the Blue Motleys are caused by a mutant gene. They have several Test Breedings with the Blue Motleys that will be producing this year. This first one, is from a Blue Motley X Anery Striped Breeding. The Test Breeders would be Anery Motleys het for Dilute Striped.

They out crossed the Blue Motley and then bred the F1s back together and produced Blue Motleys and Anery Motleys in the same clutch. What other proof do we need? They are not caused by the Hypo gene, and must be caused by a dilute gene, just like in other animals. A dilute black is BLUE.

Joe

Here is part of the clutch from the Blue Motley X Anery Stripe.

The results were Blue Motleys, Anery Motleys and one Stripe that seems to be
Anery Stripe.

I will send you a pic of the whole clutch as soon as they all come out of
the eggs.

Thanks Rob

 

[carol]

Had the original animals been tested for Hypo A?

 

[Susan]

There is another thread discussing the dilute gene... http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36683
You'll find additional pics of dilute corns, including a dilute (blue) ghost. I will test my blues with hypo A (they do carry the gene) when they are old enough, but I really don't think it'll be necessary by then. When compared side-by-side with anery and ghost clutchmates, you can see that the blues are something totally different. This is one of last year's blues with her siblings.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I will find out how much testing they have done to Hypo A. I understand why that question would be ask, but the ones I have are not Ghost Motleys. In person, they are not even close. I do see how anybody could make the correlation.

All I really know about Hypo A in them, is the original ones did produce a Ghost version of the Blue Motley. They are an extreme Pastel Motley and really do not look like the Blue Motleys much at all. Here are a few more photos that Rob just sent me of the 06 Blue Motleys and siblings and a Pastel Motley from the Blue line.

He has some Hets from a Blue Motley X Pewter breeding, that will be extremely interesting to see hatch out. A Dilute gene would definitely have a very similar effect on Charcoals.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I found this in one of the emails Rob sent me. I sent him an email to see what the ratio of Hypos to Normals was in this clutch. He refers to the Blues as being het for Hypo, so I assume that he knows this based upon his breeding results.

I also bred the Blue's into Hypo Lavender, and got Hypo's and held back 1.2
and have eggs incubating on those also.
The Blue's are het Hypo, as we have been getting Ghosts since the first
breeding.

 

[dionythicus]

That purple-pink background colour in the pastel ghost is exactly what is showing up in the saddles of mine. The the spots coming up from the belly on the side are turning a distinct pink hue as well. She was in blue for this pic.

 

[dionythicus]

Guess I already posted that pic...doh!

 

[ecreipeoj]

Had the original animals been tested for Hypo A?

As you can see from Susan’s comparison photo of sibling Anery Motleys, Ghost Motleys and Blue Motleys they look very different.

I just heard back from Rob about the Blue Motley X Hypo Lav Breeding. The results were around a 50% split between Normals and Hypos, so the Blue was het Hypo.

 

[carol]

Cool. It would be really neat to see this recovered in non anerys. Susan, have you found any of your Ghosts that seem that they may be both? I guess this is one situation where a Hypo could mask a dilute gene. I've always loved Grulla horses, now there is a Grulla snake!

 

[Serpwidgets]

Definitely seems heritable, but I think there's still more going on. I do like the idea of using the name "dilute" for the gene itself, if it proves out.

If "blue" is used for the gene, then we will be regularly fielding questions about why you don't get purples when the blue gene is expressed in a red snake.

However, the name "blue" for the anery/charcoal/lav versions would be on par with the way blue is applied all over the animal world so I agree on that and Joe will not need to fight with me over it.

Just a couple questions, I'm trying to catch up on this... hehe...

1- Has anyone proven a "blue" specimen to be not carrying hypo? I ask because it seems that every single example is het hypo, and they always come from clutches where the parents are het hypo. So the natural extension there is, "yeah, and hypo often seems to be mildly expressed when het, it's a weak codominant..."

2- Has anyone crossed blue X blue? If this is a simple recessive thing, there should be only blues, no anerys. If it produces anery/blue/ghost, then there is yet another case for "blue= het hypo."


-----

Also, if blues cannot be separated from the "het hypo" genotype, perhaps dilute is an allele to hypo, and the dilute gene is codominant to wild-type.

If that were true:
- the blues would be dilute/normal
- ghosts would be hypo/hypo, dilute/hypo, dilute/dilute
- similar to what happened with ultra, crossing it to anything carrying hypo would make it appear that the blue is het hypo and/or that the hypo is het blue.

 

[Serpwidgets]

... or, blue = anery/anery hypo/dilute.

In that instance,
anery/anery hypo/dilute X anery/anery hypo/hypo
(Blue X Ghost)

would produce:
anery/anery hypo/dilute (Blue)
anery/anery hypo/hypo (Ghost)

and no regular anerys.

 

[princess]

That sounds really viable chuck! I like the idea of a hypo-linked dilution gene!

 

[SnakeAround]

"2- Has anyone crossed blue X blue? If this is a simple recessive thing, there should be only blues, no anerys. If it produces anery/blue/ghost, then there is yet another case for "blue= het hypo.""

I think mvervest did that, as I read from the 'other' Silver Blue Ghost thread....

 

[ecreipeoj]

Definitely seems heritable, but I think there's still more going on. I do like the idea of using the name "dilute" for the gene itself, if it proves out.

If "blue" is used for the gene, then we will be regularly fielding questions about why you don't get purples when the blue gene is expressed in a red snake.

However, the name "blue" for the anery/charcoal/lav versions would be on par with the way blue is applied all over the animal world so I agree on that and Joe will not need to fight with me over it.

Just a couple questions, I'm trying to catch up on this... hehe...

1- Has anyone proven a "blue" specimen to be not carrying hypo? I ask because it seems that every single example is het hypo, and they always come from clutches where the parents are het hypo. So the natural extension there is, "yeah, and hypo often seems to be mildly expressed when het, it's a weak codominant..."

2- Has anyone crossed blue X blue? If this is a simple recessive thing, there should be only blues, no anerys. If it produces anery/blue/ghost, then there is yet another case for "blue= het hypo."


-----

Also, if blues cannot be separated from the "het hypo" genotype, perhaps dilute is an allele to hypo, and the dilute gene is codominant to wild-type.

If that were true:
- the blues would be dilute/normal
- ghosts would be hypo/hypo, dilute/hypo, dilute/dilute
- similar to what happened with ultra, crossing it to anything carrying hypo would make it appear that the blue is het hypo and/or that the hypo is het blue.

You may be a genius after all, especially the part about not fighting over the Blue Motley trade name.

I never thought about the possibility of an allele to hypo. My first thought was that Robs first Test Breeding result this year, indicated that an allele was not likely, but when you factor in the “OR” factor of an allele, he may have chosen hets for Dilute OR Hypo.

If the allele situation is the correct one, then there will be three different phenotypes. Anery dilute/dilute. Anery hypo/hypo (Ghost) and Anery hypo/dilute. Marcs clutch produced 100% copies of the adults as far as we know, but everybody did not jump on the Blue Motley band wagon immediately either. When I found out he obtained them from Bayou Reptile, I made the connection, but Marcs adults do look a little different than mine.

Is this a case, of Serps “What if” hypo thread?, only more complicated?

 

[ecreipeoj]

Something that just came to mind

I have something in my Lavenders, that is acting very much like a hypo gene, but more like a dilute gene. Now add Rich Z’s, hair pulling results with his Hypo Lavenders, and there seems to be a connection. An allele to hypo, in the Lavenders, would cause what Rich has been seeing. I happen to have a Lavender Line without the Hypo gene in it, so I did not see the same type of mixed up results.

I am not talking about the difference between the sexes. There is something else mixed in the Lavender Line too.

 

[Hurley]

I just heard back from Rob about the Blue Motley X Hypo Lav Breeding. The results were around a 50% split between Normals and Hypos, so the Blue was het Hypo.
__________________

If blue is an allele to hypo, then it doesn't show in the normal form (which is weird, you'd think you could see some melanin reduction anyway) according to the above quote.

Too bad this wasn't x a ghost to see if you'd get half blues, half ghosts or half ghosts, half anerys.

Edit: Ah, I see, you're thinking it's only blue if it's the dilute allele in het form with normal. Then in the above cross those animals shouls be half normal and half "dilute" normals, not hypos. Anyone know how hypo were they? Sure wouldn't go along with the typical dilute genes, which are recessive in every other species, but possible.

Edit 2: Also doesn't go along with the Josh x Taylor cross making ~1/4 "blues" since neither of them were "blue" as hatchlings, nor was their grandfather. Their grandmother wasn't het hypo at all (and was tested for it). If the blue motleys end up proving out to that theory, then the kids from Josh x Taylor definitely are not.