Change from frozen to live

[the_edsta]

I fed a toad to my garter snake once. He swallowed it back-end first and I saw the little guy's eyes were looking right at me while he was half way down. That was about it for feeding live toads. But I feed guppies and earthworms live without a problem. I started with garters specifically because I wanted to avoid feeding warm blooded animals.

F/T makes it a heck of a lot easier, but I have to admit there is still some blood on my hands even though my snake and I don't do the killing ourselves. Maybe some people feel like there is something honest about it, like the kinds of arguments hunters usually make (just a thought).

 

[Chip]

F/T makes it a heck of a lot easier, but I have to admit there is still some blood on my hands even though my snake and I don't do the killing ourselves. Maybe some people feel like there is something honest about it, like the kinds of arguments hunters usually make (just a thought).

There's blood on our hands if we eat meat. Whether we hunt it or let a slaughterhouse kill it for us. As for the snake's being hunters, sure that's what they have evolved to do for millions of years and many I own still do a "death roll" and constrict f/t. Others won't eat if it moving at all. I keep some mice just for live pinks for stubborn feeders, but I must honestly admit that even after over 20 years, it still bothers me a little -but opening that ziplock bag, not one bit! Similarly, I couldn't kill a piglet, but can eat babyback ribs. Is that dishonest in some way? Maybe.

 

[7legion77]

Is he blue? Plenty of snakes won't eat when blue. If so, I would wait. No matter what the reason for refusal was, I would wait until the next scheduled feeding to offer food again.

Here's an update:

I offered him a p/k mouse today. Did the zombie dance -- Wraith my snake was definitely very interested, kept flicking out his tongue and slooowly approaching the dead mouse.

However, he would not lunge and constrict. I like to have him constrict so he gets some exercise (plus its awesome to watch) but it seems like some great trepidation was holding him back. He's never been afraid to constrict before.
He knew he wanted the mouse though. He stared at it while it sat in front of him for about 10 minutes. Eventually, he ate it :licklips:

Still, I would like to see the constriction response return in the future. His next feeding is in 2-3 weeks so hopefully by then he'll be back to normal. Do snakes develop certain fears, and get over them if given enough time?

 

[Nanci]

Well, that one that Megan is rehabbing, with the rat bites all over it, was TERRIFIED of rodents for a long time, until she tricked it with a (dead) bird and then followed with fuzzy mice, I think, while he was still in feeding mode.

You might get more of a reaction by waiting until he has taken the mouse, and then gently tugging on it.

 

[worldsofwonder]

Hi, my friend has a male jungle corn that is a couple years old. For most of its life it has been fed F/T mice. However, my friend wants to change to live mice. We have tried putting the snake (piglette) in with a live mouse and it almost seems like its scared of it. One time out of the two times the snake did kill the mouse but then didnt eat it.

Any theories?

That's fine just break it's neck before feeding so your friends jungle has a greater chance of not getting tagged. Lots here say it not a good idea but with my years of experiance it ok if you break the mouses neck.

 

[Lyion]

That's fine just break it's neck before feeding so your friends jungle has a greater chance of not getting tagged. Lots here say it not a good idea but with my years of experiance it ok if you break the mouses neck.

If you break the neck, isn't it prekilled? (This isn't sarcastic, I'm actually confused about what you are saying)

 

[susang]

That's fine just break it's neck before feeding so your friends jungle has a greater chance of not getting tagged. Lots here say it not a good idea but with my years of experiance it ok if you break the mouses neck.

What about the risk of parasites with fresh killed as opposed to f/t?

 

[alan]

I have a snake that came to me eating live prey years ago(1996-1997?). I started feeding her fresh-killed mice soon after I got her. She's nowa healthy 5' long snake which eats an adult mouse every two weeks.
I'm sure there must be some risk of parasites, I'm not blind to that possibility, but I'm also a "show me" kind of guy. So show me all of the threads here about freshly killed mouse eating corn snakes with parasites. I can't find any. I will say that I've always bought her food from the same LPS. Maybe that helps, maybe they have good practices, dunno. Either it's not really a risk, or nobody on this site posts about it when it happens.
I do NOT enjoy killing the cute Stuart Little looking mice, but I knowit happens very fast when I do it. I have several years of direct observation to prove this to myself. I've never watched mice die from CO2, but I don't feel good about the idea of it. I do understand the difficulty in the logistics of cervical dislocation on thousands of mice, and the fact that people don't want to be so "hands on" when it comes to death, but I think I'll stick with cervical dislocation.

 

[Nanci]

Have you had a fecal done to look for parasites? Every snake I have had who was fed live before coming to me (as well as WC) has had worms. Every one. To be fair, I haven't checked any who were fed FT from hatching for worms...

 

[VickyChaiTea]

Just a tiny bit off topic here, but I'm going to add my thoughts to the_edsta's statement.

Morality is obviously subjective, it varies from person to person. But it stands to reason, that if you want to keep an animal in captivity as your pet that you would want to keep it alive, healthy, and happy... so that you may enjoy it for as long as possible. So it's very anti-productive to feed live. You endanger your snake. It could be as simple as a small nip, or as serious as a mortal wound. Internal parasites are generally non-life threatening... as long as they're treated in time.

So even if you take away the obvious cruelty of feeding a live mouse when otherwise unnecessary... you cannot EVER take away the danger to your snake. So it goes against reason and common sense.

Then of course the argument can be made that feeding live when there are other options is inhumane, cruel, and wrong.

So even though keeping the snake is "for our own amusement" if we are to keep them alive and healthy we need to consider what is best for their diet. If we are to keep carnivores we need to feed them flesh, but that doesn't mean we have to cause pain and agony. So when we do see people causing pain and agony... when they don't need to... and they defend it as safe or proclaim they don't care about the risks... we get mad!

We shouldn't be insulting, as the old adage goes "You attract more bees with honey than vinegar." But we SHOULD stand up for our morals and we SHOULD make valid arguments and educate people.

 

[alan]

Every snake I have had who was fed live before coming to me (as well as WC) has had worms. Every one.

Then I would suspect that my Cheerio does have worms. No, I've never done a fecal test.
I would also suspect, with no real evidence, that a snake eating only frozen and always being in a closed environment wouldn't have them.
The question I have now would be whether that is normal and not detrimental, or if it causes ill effects in life quality or longevity. I have an old snake, she's never exhibited signs of any illness, no change. She can still put on weight easily if I let her, has good poop, great eater, good sheds.
Edit add: I was way off on the date, I'm not so good at that. We got her in 2002, they told us at that time she was seven.

 

[worldsofwonder]

What about the risk of parasites with fresh killed as opposed to f/t?

Are you catching your own mice from your property? If so then yes they have parasites. If you get mice from a clean facility, and a repitable breeder then good luck getting any parasites. They would never sell any mice that might have parasites. The freezing process makes sense and all but you are losing some nutrients. Pre-killed moments before feeding is fine, no risk of bitting, or scratching. They freeze mice for our conveniance, not the snakes.

 

[worldsofwonder]

If you break the neck, isn't it prekilled? (This isn't sarcastic, I'm actually confused about what you are saying)

yes it is prekilled, but when you freeze mice they lose nutrients a very small amount but still losing. Pre-killed seconds before feeding takes out the risk of bitting, and scratching, plus it gives all the right nutrients to your snake. Freezing mice is for human conveniance, do snakes have the choice to freez their meals? No. so why.

 

[starsevol]

Have you had a fecal done to look for parasites? Every snake I have had who was fed live before coming to me (as well as WC) has had worms. Every one. To be fair, I haven't checked any who were fed FT from hatching for worms...

Are you catching your own mice from your property? If so then yes they have parasites. If you get mice from a clean facility, and a repitable breeder then good luck getting any parasites. They would never sell any mice that might have parasites. The freezing process makes sense and all but you are losing some nutrients. Pre-killed moments before feeding is fine, no risk of bitting, or scratching. They freeze mice for our conveniance, not the snakes.

yes it is prekilled, but when you freeze mice they lose nutrients a very small amount but still losing. Pre-killed seconds before feeding takes out the risk of bitting, and scratching, plus it gives all the right nutrients to your snake. Freezing mice is for human conveniance, do snakes have the choice to freez their meals? No. so why.

First off, yes mice from a clean facility can have worms, didn't you read what Nanci said? Every single snake she has ever had that has eaten live food has had worms.
And I would imagine that getting allll the nutrients possible is very important to a snake that never knows when it is going to eat again, but captive animals that eat every week get all the need as far as nutrients, whether the food is frozen or not.

 

[worldsofwonder]

First off, yes mice from a clean facility can have worms, didn't you read what Nanci said? Every single snake she has ever had that has eaten live food has had worms.
And I would imagine that getting allll the nutrients possible is very important to a snake that never knows when it is going to eat again, but captive animals that eat every week get all the need as far as nutrients, whether the food is frozen or not.

Because one person says they have checked everyone of their snakes, sure, if you say so. I have hundreds of snakes and good luck checking all of them. I have checked some and they came back as clean for parasites, all were fed pre-killed.

 

[starsevol]

Because one person says they have checked everyone of their snakes, sure, if you say so. I have hundreds of snakes and good luck checking all of them. I have checked some and they came back as clean for parasites, all were fed pre-killed.

Yippee, you checked some of your hundreds of snakes. Whoopy do.
Stating that snakes can't get parasites from live mice is a false statement IF SOMEONE'S SNAKES GOT PARASITES FROM LIVE MICE!!!

Your vast store of knowledge fails to impress......

 

[Nanci]

yes it is prekilled, but when you freeze mice they lose nutrients a very small amount but still losing. Pre-killed seconds before feeding takes out the risk of bitting, and scratching, plus it gives all the right nutrients to your snake. Freezing mice is for human conveniance, do snakes have the choice to freez their meals? No. so why.

Seriously, you're pre-killing for ~640 snakes??? How do you even handle that many live mice???

 

[beautifullywild77]

Actually freezing mice and then thawing doesn't really lose all that much nutrients for it to be better to feed pre-killed or live. Just like freezing your meat from cows or elk. Believe me I asked a professor of meat science that question.

I also highly doubt big breeder facilities check every single mouse or rat they breed for parasites. Look at what happened with RodentPro. There is a higher chance of contracting parasites from live or prekilled rodents.

 

[starsevol]

Seriously, you're pre-killing for ~640 snakes??? How do you even handle that many live mice???

Very good point!!

Also, owning alot of something for a long long time does NOT mean you're an expert. I own alot of shoes, and have owned shoes all my life but that doesnt make me a cobbler.

Just a friendly word of advice, you would fit in alot better around here if you would lose the arrogance.

 

[worldsofwonder]

Seriously, you're pre-killing for ~640 snakes??? How do you even handle that many live mice???

are you serious? if one can have 640 snakes one can handle the amount of mice. I built a seperate play house in the backyard which house the mice. I have it down to a science, feeding takes 2 days to accomplish, all snakes are feed on time. The babies eat live pinkies, it's hard to sever the spine of a pinkie, there is no tail to hold on to.