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Change from frozen to live

GarethUnsworth said:
wow I did not know this would be such a strong topic. I feed my snake live, for no particular reason its just what I started. However, I am now considering the switch the opposite way. I have also shared your feelings with my friend.
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You can find hundreds of threads on this topic by using the search function.
I have a corn that I got from some people off craiglist, I have counted at least 12 scars on her from rodent bites. One in particular could have killed her very easily, as it was in the middle of the top of her head. The first few times I offered her food, she almost seemed terrified that she was going to get bit. She has finally realized that the mice are not going to harm her anymore. She does still constrict them, but the fear just isn't there.

There are NO good reasons to feed live.

There are a million good reasons to feed frozen thawed.
 
Also, if your snake has eaten live I would suggest that you take a fecal sample to your vet. I can almost guarantee your snake has parasites.
 
GarethUnsworth said:
wow I did not know this would be such a strong topic. I feed my snake live, for no particular reason its just what I started. However, I am now considering the switch the opposite way. I have also shared your feelings with my friend.
Click to expand...

It's really much safer in the long run. If the snake is fearful of live prey, as well as already being on frozen thawed, there is no reason to switch.

Think of it along the lines of feeding a dog kibble all it's life, then suddenly putting it in a room with a rabbit and telling it "now you eat these." It can be confusing and scary for the animal.

If a snake is doing well and eating frozen thawed, there is no logical argument to switch. Zero health benefit, zero quality of life benefit, nothing, no reason. It does not make them feel like more of a snake.
 
RobbiesCornField said:
... I think my brain just broke. Aren't you the same person who tossed a live finch in with your snake?
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Of course your brain broke... a drunk person can be utterly different when sober...

I got the finch idea from a youtube video I watched...

...actually I'm quite over the sick thrills by now.

Anyhow, I tried feeding a p/k to my snake last night... and he wouldn't eat it! First time he's ever turned down a meal. Its as if he was scared of the dead mouse, or scared of me or something... or perhaps he's going into early shed to heal from those bites. I wouldn't think a reptile could develop a "learned fear" from a bad fight with a mouse.

Any ideas why he's suddenly not eating?? Should I offer him one tonight or wait a few days/wait for him to shed?

Lets hope this is but an anomaly...
 
7legion77 said:
Of course your brain broke... a drunk person can be utterly different when sober...

I got the finch idea from a youtube video I watched...

...actually I'm quite over the sick thrills by now.

Anyhow, I tried feeding a p/k to my snake last night... and he wouldn't eat it! First time he's ever turned down a meal. Its as if he was scared of the dead mouse, or scared of me or something... or perhaps he's going into early shed to heal from those bites. I wouldn't think a reptile could develop a "learned fear" from a bad fight with a mouse.

Any ideas why he's suddenly not eating?? Should I offer him one tonight or wait a few days/wait for him to shed?

Lets hope this is but an anomaly...
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Oh and he's accepted p/k before so I don't think he has a preference for live.
 
7legion77 said:
Any ideas why he's suddenly not eating?? Should I offer him one tonight or wait a few days/wait for him to shed?
.
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Is he blue? Plenty of snakes won't eat when blue. If so, I would wait. No matter what the reason for refusal was, I would wait until the next scheduled feeding to offer food again.
 
starsevol said:
Ugh, you are right. But I think Lavender did it as well.
Absolutely disgusting, "people" like this give this whole hobby a black eye.
Turns my stomach that I am the same species as someone who could do that.
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It does make more logical sense to feed F/T than live. There are other logical arguments that can be made about husbandry, housing, etc.

But I would like to say a word about the seemingly arbitrary moral norms established (and appealed to) on this site, and of course, by extension, to those who stand by them with vitriol and righteousness. Let’s be absolutely clear about something: we are hobbyists, keeping and/or breeding reptiles that have been captured from the wild purely for our own amusement (as they serve no other purpose as livestock or otherwise). We then produce and consume hundreds or thousands of small warm blooded rodents for them, and ultimately for the same end: our own amusement. It would be very easy to construct an argument that this entire process is indulgent, unnatural, and amoral. Of course, counterarguments can be made (in the same of science etc.) but let’s just be honest with ourselves here (as I have yet to see a proper clinical study done in this hobby, other than the one Kathy Love touches on at the end of her book concerning hatch rates). I understand that this is a site created for and by those very hobbyists, and as such, this kind of argument will never become a normative opinion here. But I will say this: the immediacy with which people castigate anyone deviating from that arbitrary norm, to be euphemistic about it, is an act of constructing the biggest, shiniest glass house on the block.

I understand this is a ‘macro’ look at the subject, but sometimes it isn’t a bad idea to take a few steps back and reevaluate a subject with some distance.
 
the_edsta said:
It does make more logical sense to feed F/T than live. There are other logical arguments that can be made about husbandry, housing, etc.

But I would like to say a word about the seemingly arbitrary moral norms established (and appealed to) on this site, and of course, by extension, to those who stand by them with vitriol and righteousness. Let’s be absolutely clear about something: we are hobbyists, keeping and/or breeding reptiles that have been captured from the wild purely for our own amusement (as they serve no other purpose as livestock or otherwise). We then produce and consume hundreds or thousands of small warm blooded rodents for them, and ultimately for the same end: our own amusement. It would be very easy to construct an argument that this entire process is indulgent, unnatural, and amoral. Of course, counterarguments can be made (in the same of science etc.) but let’s just be honest with ourselves here (as I have yet to see a proper clinical study done in this hobby, other than the one Kathy Love touches on at the end of her book concerning hatch rates). I understand that this is a site created for and by those very hobbyists, and as such, this kind of argument will never become a normative opinion here. But I will say this: the immediacy with which people castigate anyone deviating from that arbitrary norm, to be euphemistic about it, is an act of constructing the biggest, shiniest glass house on the block.

I understand this is a ‘macro’ look at the subject, but sometimes it isn’t a bad idea to take a few steps back and reevaluate a subject with some distance.
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Cutting through this pointy-headed overeducated blather, and please correct me if I am wrong, I am getting that since we keep these animals and consume rodents for our own amusement this whole hobby can be considered amoral. The same can be said for any pet that is kept.
However, even though snakes are kept for our amusement there is a huge difference between intentionally causing pain and distress for ANY living thing needlessly, and doing what must be done as humanely as possible. Also, any keeper that keeps these creatures for their own amusement who fails to do what is needed to keep them safe and healthy is not much of a keeper at all.
 
I agree, Edsta. And the dialog such as "that's how Jeffery Dahmer started" is probably a bit much. But in every case, I assure you the members here are more concerned with the animals and their welfare than anything else. And isn't that what this is all about? And couldn't the same be said for our dogs and cats that eat meat protein?
 
the_edsta said:
It does make more logical sense to feed F/T than live. There are other logical arguments that can be made about husbandry, housing, etc.

But I would like to say a word about the seemingly arbitrary moral norms established (and appealed to) on this site, and of course, by extension, to those who stand by them with vitriol and righteousness. Let’s be absolutely clear about something: we are hobbyists, keeping and/or breeding reptiles that have been captured from the wild purely for our own amusement (as they serve no other purpose as livestock or otherwise). We then produce and consume hundreds or thousands of small warm blooded rodents for them, and ultimately for the same end: our own amusement. It would be very easy to construct an argument that this entire process is indulgent, unnatural, and amoral. Of course, counterarguments can be made (in the same of science etc.) but let’s just be honest with ourselves here (as I have yet to see a proper clinical study done in this hobby, other than the one Kathy Love touches on at the end of her book concerning hatch rates). I understand that this is a site created for and by those very hobbyists, and as such, this kind of argument will never become a normative opinion here. But I will say this: the immediacy with which people castigate anyone deviating from that arbitrary norm, to be euphemistic about it, is an act of constructing the biggest, shiniest glass house on the block.

I understand this is a ‘macro’ look at the subject, but sometimes it isn’t a bad idea to take a few steps back and reevaluate a subject with some distance.
Click to expand...

This is the perspective I've had all along. The castigators are actually always the same people.

At this point I'm only gonna feed p/k because my snake is a smaller type of corn and he struggles to kill adult mice. I also feel pretty remorseful because of this -- in the wild, snakes might lunge at prey, then they figure out its too big for them so they leave it alone. They are very good at quickly differentiating between prey/predator and they are hardwired to look out for their own safety.
So when I put a live adult in there and the snake decides to let it go because he can't kill it, its actually extremely stressful for my snake to be trapped with something that he fears. Snakes are ninjas... if they lose the stealth advantage, they will retreat.
Snake isn't concerned with putting on a show in a gladiator arena -- he's concerned with staying alive! And if the prey isn't smoothly and easily killed, snake's gonna get the hell out of there.
And in the spirit of common sense.... why risk the safety of your pet when there's no rational reason to feed live?
Consider me converted -- I learned the hard way.
 
I'm just going to offer this - I feed my dog a raw diet. Does that mean I keep a dog just for the sole pleasure of watching him consume raw meat? No. I feed him that because it is healthy, safe, and actually cheaper than buying kibble every month. Does that make me immoral and a hypocrite for saying (in my opinion) it's healthier to feed snakes f/t? I don't keep snakes to watch them eat. I keep them because they are beautiful animals and great pets and family members, just as any of my other pets. They just happen to eat mice. Because I want what I feel is best for my pets, I feed f/t.
 
Just to clarify, that was in regards to the_edsta's post. I agree with all of the aforementioned reasons for feeding f/t over live.
 
7legion77 said:
This is the perspective I've had all along. The castigators are actually always the same people.

At this point I'm only gonna feed p/k because my snake is a smaller type of corn and he struggles to kill adult mice. I also feel pretty remorseful because of this -- in the wild, snakes might lunge at prey, then they figure out its too big for them so they leave it alone. They are very good at quickly differentiating between prey/predator and they are hardwired to look out for their own safety.
So when I put a live adult in there and the snake decides to let it go because he can't kill it, its actually extremely stressful for my snake to be trapped with something that he fears. Snakes are ninjas... if they lose the stealth advantage, they will retreat.
Snake isn't concerned with putting on a show in a gladiator arena -- he's concerned with staying alive! And if the prey isn't smoothly and easily killed, snake's gonna get the hell out of there.
And in the spirit of common sense.... why risk the safety of your pet when there's no rational reason to feed live?
Consider me converted -- I learned the hard way.
Click to expand...

School of hard knocks eh? Better you learned before something very bad happened.
 
DragonsDenSerpents said:
I'm just going to offer this - I feed my dog a raw diet. Does that mean I keep a dog just for the sole pleasure of watching him consume raw meat? No. I feed him that because it is healthy, safe, and actually cheaper than buying kibble every month. Does that make me immoral and a hypocrite for saying (in my opinion) it's healthier to feed snakes f/t? I don't keep snakes to watch them eat. I keep them because they are beautiful animals and great pets and family members, just as any of my other pets. They just happen to eat mice. Because I want what I feel is best for my pets, I feed f/t.
Click to expand...

And feeding raw for your dog is a lot different than throwing a live rabbit in his crate with him to kill and eat.
 
My point was really about the rhetoric around the whole thing. I'm all for a debate about good husbandry, but when it suddenly turns into 'these people aren't human' and 'this practice is evil/cruel and INTENT (how does one judge intent?) on doing harm, have you no heart?' etc, the conversation has devolved into ad hominem attacks (not unlike referring to a well thought out post as 'pointy headed overeducated blather'). There is no reason one cannot discuss good practice without putting oneself on a moral high ground. And as life proves to use, sometimes the people who are most righteous in their fervor are the ones getting away with the most.
 
I concur. It gets a little old. OTOH, why _do_ people enjoy seeing an animal suffer, when there is an easy alternative? I don't know the answer to that.
 
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