• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Change?.

Ricky87

New member
There's clearly a lot of discussion on this site about political change, so I'm just curious about people's opinions on broader change. I'll ask a question and I want to know what you guy's think; what is the biggest drive for change in this country?. Does it come from the people, from the economy, from technology, from the government, etc. I know a great many people blame Obama for the state of our nation, but I often wonder if it doesn't stem from a national desire to change. All empires in the history of the world have fallen at some point due to too much change, or not enough. It feels as though we're a country where technology is growing beyond our own growth as people, and society is being hurt because of it. Just my opinions though, and I'd love to hear what you guy's think of what is the biggest step this nation must take in order to achieve a change that can bring America to a sustainable prosperity...
 
The congress of the US is corrupt and I can't see anything changing for the better until we rid ourselves of those vermin, their lobbyists and the money they depend upon for re-election, on both sides of the aisle.
 
The congress of the US is corrupt and I can't see anything changing for the better until we rid ourselves of those vermin, their lobbyists and the money they depend upon for re-election, on both sides of the aisle.

This libertarian agrees....
and would like to add that the media is corrupt also.....
pay attention when you watch the news. They don't report the news as much as tell you how you are supposed to FEEL about it. Everything is spun. I truly believe that the media decided that Obama was going to be president, and made it so. We were sold a bill of goods.
 
The congress of the US is corrupt and I can't see anything changing for the better until we rid ourselves of those vermin, their lobbyists and the money they depend upon for re-election, on both sides of the aisle.

There is too much support for special interests on both sides. Unfortunately, I don't see this changing soon.

Also, the Supreme Court's decision to lift political advertising will surely bring lots of change. Learn to speak Mandarin...it will help you in the decades to come.
 
The congress of the US is corrupt and I can't see anything changing for the better until we rid ourselves of those vermin, their lobbyists and the money they depend upon for re-election, on both sides of the aisle.

I know! They are all "Forked Tonged" little devils! :sidestep:

Wayne;)
 
The problems with this country are the same problems with most of humanity...greed. At the heart of it all is greed. Money is the key, and humans will do anything to get that all mighty dollar, to make themselves feel more powerful, so THEY can be the boss, not someone ese.

There is no "fix" because there is no more honesty, no more integrity, no more doing what is right just because it is right. There is no more decency and respect for the positions held in high government nor for the citizens the government works for. No matter who you vote for, or who takes over the world, it will always be a greedy grab at exploiting the next big thing...

And it's been this way for a loooong time...
 
Technology is not the problem nor is technology growing faster than the growth of the people. You change things when what you currently have isn’t working. Obama was elected because people wanted change. I don’t think the current state of the nation is Obama’s fault, but he isn’t fixing it and I think he is making it worse.

Personally I believe the problem is that we are allowing the tail to wag the dog. This nation became affluent and wealthy because we were and industrious nation. We were a nation of producers. We took raw materials and created goods to be sold. We don’t do that any more. The sale of those goods is where our wealth was created.

Over a third of our population is employed by the government in one way or another. They regulate up, license us, build our highways, deliver our mail. They don’t produce anything. They don’t generate any new wealth, the live on the wealth generated by others.

Add to the government the health care workers, entertainment business, service industry, and pretty soon you have the majority of our population are living on the wealth generated by others. None of them produce anything, none of them develop any new wealth.

I’m not saying that these industries are bad, many of them are essential. What is bad is the imbalance of the distribution. We have the majority living off the minority. We are reaching a point where the minority can not produce enough to feed the majority.

Then take some of our hard earned wealth and send it to China for commodities that they are producing. Now their wealth grows as ours diminishes. Send a great deal of our wealth to the middle east for oil and their wealth increases.

We have become a consumer and are no longer a producer. That is what need to change.
 
Wade REALLY hit the nail on the head!

I don't blame Obama. He is a product of the people who elected him. And the people who elected him are the product of mass media and government corruption and propaganda. And the huge government and media entities that mislead people are the products of human nature allowed to go amok in the ways that human nature often go amok. That goes back to greed, need for safety at any cost, being willing to bury one's head in the sand and buy into an alluring illusion provided by big government, etc, etc.

Have some of you read The Naked Ape? It is an old book, by Desmond Morris. I read it a LONG time ago. But as I remember, it talks about the basic human psyche evolving as a tribal animal, with loyalties to the immediate family and tribe (which probably included mostly related individuals, going into the "selfish gene" theory, which makes a lot of sense to me, too). Once people started living in cities and even larger "groups" of countries, we had to stretch our sense of "family" to include ever larger and more diverse members of our extended "family".

It is my belief that the thinking part of our brain has tried to fit this new concept of family into our more primitive, emotional brain that wants to adhere more to the selfish gene theory of loyalty to those who share our genes most closely. And the bigger and more diverse the country's population gets, the more difficult it is for people to resolve the subconscious discord between the two beliefs. I think that huge population, huge corporations, and huge government are, in a way, beyond our more primitive, deep emotional ability to fully comprehend and relate to. So we cope the best we can with the the rational part of our brains. But I believe that means that the darker aspects of human nature, such as greed, can more easily gain the upper hand. For example, people in one state will elect a representative who can bring home the "pork projects". And the voters will rationalize it because the money comes from "somewhere else" - people to whom they have little loyalty, even though they are also Americans. And it goes to their own state or community, to whom they owe more loyalty. And I believe that is why "pork spending" is guaranteed with the system we have now.

I remember reading about the system they had in Switzerland many years ago (I don't know if it has changed now). The article talked about how they governed themselves through a lot of local venues, with a lot of "town hall" type meetings. Because the country was small, without a lot of immigration (at the time), fairly homogeneous and with long standing shared traditions, they had a shared community spirit and loyalty to each other that would probably be impossible to duplicate in modern, large, mobile populations such as found now in the US (and many other countries).

That is why I believe we are where we are. But what is the solution? Good question! Maybe a return of MOST of the power to the states, as the Constitution stipulated? A state is closer to the local communities that people actually live in and care about. If most of the power, money, and important decisions rested with each state, it would be easier for groups of like minded people to influence those decisions. And if a particular state had a large population of conservative, or liberal, or libertarian leaning folks, then that state would become a magnet for more of the same, and the residents there could have more of a shared, tribal loyalty with those of like minds. The Federal government is just too big, and too powerful, no matter WHO is Prez, and no matter WHO is sitting in the Rep and Senate seats. The Feds were never intended to rule over the states and make decisions for them. The Feds were supposed to pretty much just deal with foreign matters and matters BETWEEN the states, and little else. But it is not likely to go back to the basics as decreed by our Constitution. WHO is going to vote for giving up power and money, if they are in the position to do so? Maybe a Vulcan, but not many humans!
 
Technology is not the problem nor is technology growing faster than the growth of the people. You change things when what you currently have isn’t working. Obama was elected because people wanted change. I don’t think the current state of the nation is Obama’s fault, but he isn’t fixing it and I think he is making it worse.

Personally I believe the problem is that we are allowing the tail to wag the dog. This nation became affluent and wealthy because we were and industrious nation. We were a nation of producers. We took raw materials and created goods to be sold. We don’t do that any more. The sale of those goods is where our wealth was created.

Over a third of our population is employed by the government in one way or another. They regulate up, license us, build our highways, deliver our mail. They don’t produce anything. They don’t generate any new wealth, the live on the wealth generated by others.

Add to the government the health care workers, entertainment business, service industry, and pretty soon you have the majority of our population are living on the wealth generated by others. None of them produce anything, none of them develop any new wealth.

I’m not saying that these industries are bad, many of them are essential. What is bad is the imbalance of the distribution. We have the majority living off the minority. We are reaching a point where the minority can not produce enough to feed the majority.

Then take some of our hard earned wealth and send it to China for commodities that they are producing. Now their wealth grows as ours diminishes. Send a great deal of our wealth to the middle east for oil and their wealth increases.

We have become a consumer and are no longer a producer. That is what need to change.
Great post, and I agree with most of it..The only thing about it is that those resources are inevitably going to deplete...From the sounds of it it's almost as though we have to go and conquer a new America for resources (ie. Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.)..Great basis though, and it seems technology is the only, or at least main, resource we can still harvest and create growth with. That's when I wonder is it on the people to focus less on technology and more on natural resources, or do we need to revolutionize a new society that falls in line more towards the space-travel, planet colonizing way of thinking...What do you feel is the end-game, so to speak?.
 
I don't blame Obama. He is a product of the people who elected him. And the people who elected him are the product of mass media and government corruption and propaganda. And the huge government and media entities that mislead people are the products of human nature allowed to go amok in the ways that human nature often go amok. That goes back to greed, need for safety at any cost, being willing to bury one's head in the sand and buy into an alluring illusion provided by big government, etc, etc.

Have some of you read The Naked Ape? It is an old book, by Desmond Morris. I read it a LONG time ago. But as I remember, it talks about the basic human psyche evolving as a tribal animal, with loyalties to the immediate family and tribe (which probably included mostly related individuals, going into the "selfish gene" theory, which makes a lot of sense to me, too). Once people started living in cities and even larger "groups" of countries, we had to stretch our sense of "family" to include ever larger and more diverse members of our extended "family".

It is my belief that the thinking part of our brain has tried to fit this new concept of family into our more primitive, emotional brain that wants to adhere more to the selfish gene theory of loyalty to those who share our genes most closely. And the bigger and more diverse the country's population gets, the more difficult it is for people to resolve the subconscious discord between the two beliefs. I think that huge population, huge corporations, and huge government are, in a way, beyond our more primitive, deep emotional ability to fully comprehend and relate to. So we cope the best we can with the the rational part of our brains. But I believe that means that the darker aspects of human nature, such as greed, can more easily gain the upper hand. For example, people in one state will elect a representative who can bring home the "pork projects". And the voters will rationalize it because the money comes from "somewhere else" - people to whom they have little loyalty, even though they are also Americans. And it goes to their own state or community, to whom they owe more loyalty. And I believe that is why "pork spending" is guaranteed with the system we have now.

I remember reading about the system they had in Switzerland many years ago (I don't know if it has changed now). The article talked about how they governed themselves through a lot of local venues, with a lot of "town hall" type meetings. Because the country was small, without a lot of immigration (at the time), fairly homogeneous and with long standing shared traditions, they had a shared community spirit and loyalty to each other that would probably be impossible to duplicate in modern, large, mobile populations such as found now in the US (and many other countries).

That is why I believe we are where we are. But what is the solution? Good question! Maybe a return of MOST of the power to the states, as the Constitution stipulated? A state is closer to the local communities that people actually live in and care about. If most of the power, money, and important decisions rested with each state, it would be easier for groups of like minded people to influence those decisions. And if a particular state had a large population of conservative, or liberal, or libertarian leaning folks, then that state would become a magnet for more of the same, and the residents there could have more of a shared, tribal loyalty with those of like minds. The Federal government is just too big, and too powerful, no matter WHO is Prez, and no matter WHO is sitting in the Rep and Senate seats. The Feds were never intended to rule over the states and make decisions for them. The Feds were supposed to pretty much just deal with foreign matters and matters BETWEEN the states, and little else. But it is not likely to go back to the basics as decreed by our Constitution. WHO is going to vote for giving up power and money, if they are in the position to do so? Maybe a Vulcan, but not many humans!
Genius!!..I can totally get with that idea that we're too globalized and and not focusing on the simplicity of living and loving within our own 'tribes'..The idea to completely individualize states is a great one, and it's a shame that voting can never create that effect (at least that I'm aware of). From that sense, do you think technology is to blame for that huge expanse of community, or is it on the government who allows all these different groups to try and co-exist harmoniously within one nation?..You make great points, and if I had my choice you'd definitely get my vote for prez..You're ideals are sound in every way!.
 
Improved technology may ALLOW us to indulge in the proliferation of agriculture, communication, transportation, and other avenues that help us to overpopulate, overbuild, and overdo many things. But it is HUMAN NATURE, for better or worse, that causes us to pursue those opportunities.

It is in our nature (humans in general) to be kind and compassionate at times, even to strangers in need. But it is also in our nature to try to actively change our environment to produce more comfort for ourselves and those closest to us. It makes total sense, if you look at ancient history as USUALLY a time for a much higher chance to die young than to become rich (in whatever riches were available at the time), have many offspring who mostly live into adulthood, and get enjoy life enough to relax, have hobbies, and get fat. So it was natural for ancient humans to try to strive for what we have today, and for us to strive for even more of the same.

Now that we don't usually have to worry as much about dying young (at least, in most modern countries), we have not lost our primal caveman urges to still get as much comfort as possible for ourselves and our family (greed), to get as much food as possible to avoid starvation, (leading to obesity instead) or produce too many kids, leading to overpopulation. We may control those urges, sometimes well, and sometimes poorly, but for most naked apes (humans), the urges are still there, and often will be obeyed - willingly or not, whether they make sense or not - in our modern environment.
 
Well said Kathy!...Overpopulation being, I think, the most dangerous, because when we do have those comforts most of us want to have as big of families as possible. We're almost counter-intuitive in a way, and we live too much for the now instead of the future. I don't know how we change that, but until we do the world will continue to shrink until we're literally fighting over territory just to exist, taking us right back to that primitive state. That's why I really respect those who take into account the value of bringing a life into this world, and what impact that will have on the world. My aunt and uncle have one child, and they've discussed openly during Christmas dinners and other family get-togethers what we think of them having another child. It's very important to them to not get caught up in expanding, and just focusing on what will work for them. Not saying people shouldn't have more than 2 kids, but if everyone did than this world would be completely bare of all resources. My own Grandparents had 2 kids of their own, and when it came to having a 3rd child they chose to adopt a child instead. Something that's very noble, but they were also lucky because unlike most people they adopted from one of my Grandfathers former students. Otherwise adopting a child would have been beyond their means to afford. Something that prohibits a lot of people from adopting a child. As it stands now I feel like it will only get worse before it gets better, because not only is America expanding at an unreal rate, but so is the entire planet. Like you said, we're urged to do so and it takes a lot of things to happen for us to change that mentality. It's an integral part of how we evolved, and clearly we've grown beyond on our limits in a way. Great discussion though, and I'm interested in how we can change the mentality before it consumes us?..Especially when we have things like the environment to consider, as well as economic and governmental issues..Very tough problem to solve for each individual, let alone the world at large...
 
Well said Kathy!...Overpopulation being, I think, the most dangerous, because when we do have those comforts most of us want to have as big of families as possible.

Actually, the evidence STRONGLY indicates that when people have the most basic needs met AND a generation or so of high child survival rates, they voluntarily reduce family size to 1-3 children. Very large families are either due to religious beliefs banning contraception or due to high child mortality requiring people to have a lot of kids in order to be sure SOME survive to adulthood. Since not everyone has any kids, and some people can't, 1-3 kids usually winds up being about the replacement level. This demographic transition has been observed in a number of different countries.
 
I think it is too late to solve the population. If you say all right 2 kids per couple from now on. By the time all the under 18 kids grow up and have their pair we will be down to standing room only.

We are not running out of natural resources. That is all enviro whacko propaganda. When we get sick and tired of buying oil from terrorists we have enough oil right here at home to keep us supplied. I you take your facts from Al Gore types we will all be flooded out by the melting ice caps long before fuel becomes a problem. We have the biggest uranium deposits in the world right here in the western US. We just need to tell the enviro whackos to sit down and shut up.

It doesn’t matter what kind of energy we use, there are too many of us. We won’t be worried about green house gases when we are knee deep in our own feces. We need a good old testament plague or two to thin out the weak ones, then we will be fine. Which brings me back to my original statement that we need to reduce the number of people who can not produce and be productive, who rely on the products of others.
 
I have also read that the poorest families with the least education generally have the most kids. That seems to be true in the US, and also worldwide. My guess is that less information or access to birth control is part of the cause. But bigger families are may also be encouraged in lower income groups because of a feeling that kids are less likely to reach adulthood, or be successful, or be able to support the old folks later, or maybe they even provide needed help on the farm, or to beg in the streets, or whatever else kids can do to help support a poor family. Higher income, better educated parents tend to have smaller families. That can be a real financial disaster, and a downward spiral towards more poverty for the countries facing this dilemma.
 
Love that verse, and the song, and especially the album...Beautiful Struggle was a great!. Not quite as good as High Quality, which was my favorite, but it's definitely right up there..Favorite verse is of his is off of 'Everything Man' (Eardrum), even though it's a short one: "What becomes of a dream deferred, who never makes it to the world to be seen or heard, Do it breathe? Do it got a heartbeat? Is it alive? Do it leave, only to become a star in the sky? I believe, scratch that I know, this ain't my full potential, only usin' 10 percent of my mental on instrumentals, but incidentally my, energy heavenly, can he be so ill there ain't no, pill or no remedy?, The, maker of memories possess the recipe to your fate, make no mistake there ain't no escapin' your destiny, especially when, 'til death do us part, like wedding rings, I'll be here forever put that on everything."..So smart that man is..Not Tupac, but then again; who is :)?.
 
Back
Top