Controversial Discussion: Direction of This Site

[Susan]

...
Perhaps "frivolous post reporting" could earn you an infraction? Reporting a post when there is no clear violation of the cite rules could be grounds for an infraction. I think that might make people think longer before hitting the button.

Actually, Rich has recently added a "blank" infraction where the mods can insert the reason for the infraction, and one for a frivolous reported post has already been issued to a member who was told to drop an issue, but continued on with it a few weeks later. I have a feeling that function is going to be used quite frequently.

And yes, the gray areas are the most difficult to moderate, especially in determining what is and isn't profanity. Yes, the mods have been inconsistent in that particular area over the past few years for a variety of reasons, up to and including having that rule further defined to us by Rich. And I still find myself in a quandary most of the time over this particular issue. I really wish we could have a list of what exactly is considered implied profanity. To me, if you can almost instinctively insert a profane word in place of whatever has been written and not lose any context, then it's implied profanity.

"WTF" has been mentioned and is one of several perfect examples. Am I implying profanity if I were to say "What the Hey?" My own children have a habit of saying "What the...?" when suddenly puzzled by something, and to me, they are implying "WTF" and I try to stop them.

If someone says "You need to keep your freaking mouth shut!", is that implied profanity? To some, "freaking" is NOT considered to be implying the "F bomb". I personally can't see how they can say that. Saying "That ride was freaking awesome!" implies the exact same thing to me as in my first example...it's the "F bomb". However, that particular word has been discussed in the past and deemed "not profane" by the majority, if my memory serves me correctly.

Now I need to get ready for work.

 

[wade]

I’d like to make a suggestion. Someone has already mentioned consistency. I think that is really important. When rules are enforced inconsistently there are going to be hard feelings. I recently was given an infraction for something that I have done before and seen others do frequently. I was surprised and annoyed. I’m a big boy and will take my lumps, if I break the rule I expect to be slapped.

I think it would help if someone would clearly and specifically define what constitutes profanity. Put it in plane language and even make a list of the words. Don’t leave it open for interpretation. Don’t make it a judgement call. Black and White.

 

[desertanimal]

We could start a profanity list thread in the "Discussions about this site" forum. We could vote on which words count as profanity and an infraction if you use them and which are ok. Then we'd have something to refer newbies to, as well.

 

[Tula_Montage]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of voting on what words I am and am not allowed to use. Implied profanity is utterly down to interpretation and the context in which the word is used. In my opinion, if it is not CLEARLY implied, then it is not a big deal. For example f*&^k is clearly implied, where as freaking is not. It's an entirely separate word. I do not associate this word with the f word. I don't say what the freak, I don't say shut the freak up and I don't say freak off. I use it as an adjective where I feel is appropriate where no other adjective will work.

 

[coralife205]

I know ive only belonged to this forum for less than 24 hours, but there is a few things i have to say what i notice thats differnt about this forum to others...

I belong to severl other forums on the web because I am one of thoughs hard-core-aquarist. I belong to forums such as, miapg.com theplantedtank.com , aquaticplantcentrial.com , simplydiscus.com... All of thoughs sites seem pretty layed back. of course they wont tolerate certain things, obvoius thigns, for good reasons... but, forgive me for saying this, this forum i get the sence that there is a certain...'controling-negative-too-strict atttude'. What led me to see this so far is just, well this very thread alone. and some other threads i was exploreing on here. it just seems... like high schoolish sort of. i hope to stay on this forum longer and like it better. but im only judgeing based on what ive sceen so far and compared it to other forums, hopefuly itel get better...

 

[desertanimal]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of voting on what words I am and am not allowed to use. Implied profanity is utterly down to interpretation and the context in which the word is used. In my opinion, if it is not CLEARLY implied, then it is not a big deal. For example f*&^k is clearly implied, where as freaking is not. It's an entirely separate word. I do not associate this word with the f word. I don't say what the freak, I don't say shut the freak up and I don't say freak off. I use it as an adjective where I feel is appropriate where no other adjective will work.

We can vote on words like freaking as well. I agree that freaking is not a curse word. And I don't are if you DO use it to imply the F bomb. Freak is freak and the other is the other. "What the . . ." can imply WTF or WTH. Or nothing at all. If I trail off, personally, it doesn't imply anything--I trailed off with my mouth because I trailed off in my head. Implication can't actually be definitively determined by the audience--only inference can. "What the . . ." has become it's own entity, as far as I'm concerned. In my house if the phrase is finished, it's often the 4-letter S word that's used--somewhat idiosyncratic perhaps. Anyway. I have no investment in it, but it doesn't seem fair that some people get infractions or warnings or whatever for some things and other people don't. That's always going to happen, but I'd be pretty irritated if I was warned or got an infraction for writing something I didn't think was a cussword just because someone else was having a bad day and reported me to a conservative mod who also happened to be having a bad day. I wouldn't be irritated, though, if the word had been deemed by the site members as profanity, regardless of my personal opinion about the word.

But as I said, it hasn't been an issue for me and until it is, I don't care if we have clearer cussword guidelines or not.

 

[wstphal]

As far as cusswords are concerned, I think "freak" is fine, "darn" is fine, "drat" is fine, "goldarn" is fine. I am even OK with "f*&^" and "s&^%" but I realize they may offend others. "OMG" implies something that is a cussword to some as well, but we use it as an exclamation when a snake is gorgeous, and I think that's OK too. As in "OMG I need sunglasses that lava blood is so bright!" Spelling out the Anglo-Saxon monosyllables or other FCC banned words is NOT OK. I don't think we need to police our language to the point where we can't imply a cussword, just to the point where we don't use them.

I am comfortable with obeying stricter rules than that if the mods feel those rules are needed. As long as I know what the rules are and what the consequences of breaking them are, I'll obey them unless the issue is REALLY worth the consequences. I doubt that'll arise, but I will take my lumps if it does.

 

[Nanci]

Since when is oh my God! spelled out a profanity? Thank God certainly isn't. I say it all the time. And mean it. If you don't believe in God, then I'm just a crazy person!

 

[bitsy]

I think it's maybe a reference to the "taking the Lord's name in vain" aspect?

Not a concern for me, I have to say.

 

[Tula_Montage]

Oh my god could be seen as blasphemous by some religious individuals ie taking the lords name in vein. That's fair enough. But the simple fact of the matter is it takes all sorts of people from many different religious, cultural and social background to comprise this forum.

I am someone who is not easily offended. Cuss words are deemed necessary if there is no other explanation, and the majority of the time if they are used or implied then it's for a damn good reason. People could just not use them, but sometimes there are just no other words for certain emotions. Cuss words are usually only said on a whim... I know I don't plan my sentences with as many swears as I can possibly include. On the Internet is it different, as you do have time to think about what you say or well type. But if you are someone like me who can type quicker than you can talk, and it seems like second nature, sometimes they slip out.

Back on track, the main reason they are frowned upon on cs.com is due to the fact we have very young members. I am sure seeing f*^& on here is mild compared to what some kids hear from their peers these days. The majority of us do not live sheltered lives, and I am not condoning the use of cuss words, but I am simply saying there are worse things out there than an F and a few Astrix's.

If there is going to be a punishment system, then it needs to be made clear what the crime is. HOWEVER I still disagree with there being a rule on what I can and can't say if it is not direct profanity. Implied profanity IMO should be clear as daylight before considering any sort of punishment. And if that is the case, then the individual will see no problem is taking the punishment, as it would be obvious to him or her and everyone else exactly what the word was.

 

[wade]

I am comfortable with obeying stricter rules than that if the mods feel those rules are needed. As long as I know what the rules are and what the consequences of breaking them are, I'll obey them unless the issue is REALLY worth the consequences. I doubt that'll arise, but I will take my lumps if it does.

Implied profanity IMO should be clear as daylight before considering any sort of punishment. And if that is the case, then the individual will see no problem is taking the punishment, as it would be obvious to him or her and everyone else exactly what the word was.

What they said!!!

 

[wstphal]

I don't think spelling out OMG is a cussword, just pointed out that some people would.

As far as the bickering goes, as long as it is issues oriented, and doesn't degenerate into "You idiot! Am not! Are too!" I can ignore it.

 

[Dinah]

I am new and don't have a whole lot to add, just that this is only my second actual forum that I have used the rest of my online stuff has been using a different type of format. Anyways I left the other forum specifically because I felt it was over moderated. Here I have not seen any indication that the board is over moderated, but I would at least like to put out there that over moderation to me is not a good thing. Again I have not felt that this board was over moderated, I just wanted to offer the opinion regarding that subject. I actually really like it here so far.

Anyways on the profanity issue, I being new have recently read the site rules sticky at the top of the introduce yourselves page. My suggestion would be that if it is determined that implied profanity is going to count as an infraction then the sticky should be changed to specifically state "profanity or implied profanity" I totally understand and am willing to follow all of the site rules but I am just saying that if it is decided that implied profanity is also not ok, then I think it should say that in the site rules sticky so that way it can be clear to new members right away.

 

[Rich Z]

A couple of points need to be made here, I think.

First off, getting an infraction is NOT a punishment. Those infraction notices are warnings that an actual punishment is IMMINENT if those warnings are not heeded and the infractions be avoided in future posts. The infraction system is an excellent tool for the moderators to use for a number of reasons. One is that a clear record is kept of all of the infractions that any member make make here. Someone may feel that they have a "budget" of one profanity laced post per month, which most people would not be able to remember. The infraction system, however, DOES keep track of that and accumulates the infraction points accordingly. Also, it allows a convenient audit trail for my review in case there are any questions or concerns about the use of the infraction system. Mods are people just like you and I and can have bad days, bad weeks, or even a life that suddenly turns bad on them. It is in the best interests of this site that I try to keep close tabs on the actions my mods take so I can take steps to head off any problems that a mod may wind up creating for me and this site. It can happen, I am cognizant of that fact, and I will certainly try to stay on top of that issue.

On another line of thought, the issue of consistency of enforcement of the rules was brought up. Let's see, I just looked at the posting stats and it shows that 921 posts were made in the past 24 hours. So, let's see, we have 3 moderators here at this time, so I guess I should check with them to make sure they each read their allocation of 307 posts. To you see how unrealistic that demand would be? And in like vein, can you see how inconsistency is inevitable simply because ALL posts will NOT be read here by the mods. Even if they were to be, the mods are not clones of some central requisite personality so that all decisions will be identical from all of the mods. So some will have personal backgrounds that may lead them to feel that something said in a post is a violation, whereas another may not thing that exact same way. That's just the way it is, and there is no way to make that any better. Even if there were only ONE mod reading and evaluating all the posts, this one person may be in one frame of mind while reading one post, then three days later read the same exact wording and be in a completely different frame of mind and react differently. That is just human nature.

On another topic, profanity. Sorry, but this will always have to be a gray area that cannot be put into a black and white definition. Even if I made an absolute list of words that are considered to be profanity, there are any number of ways to get around that, which would mean either that list would have to be continually updated with the work around words, or it would be soon abandoned once the futility of it was pointedly shown. Also, keep in mind that I tend to gear my sites more to adults then I do to children. I don't actively discourage them from coming to this site (FaunaClassifieds, however, has a filter to deny registrations from anyone under 13 years of age), I also will not particularly make much effort to keep it a PG-13 rating. The policing of the content filter allowed to be displayed on any person's browser will have to be at the browser level. To do so otherwise would make this site have to comply with so many conflicting requirements of individual viewers that the least common denominator effect would make it such that people will become afraid to post nearly anything for fear of offending someone and receiving an infraction because of it. So necessarily, such rules about profanity and the like will have to be gray area, at the discretion of the mods under my suggestions. I'm sorry, but I've been over this issue many times on FaunaClassifieds, and that is the only realistic way to deal with this. And if you combine this topic with the above about consistency in enforcement of the rules, I am certain you can see how difficult it will be trying to moderate a site with the amount of traffic this one is getting. All I can ask of the mods is to do their best with the enforcement of the rules. All I can ask of the membership is to do YOUR best to try to make their jobs easier. Otherwise if you burn them out, it may be tough to find replacements that are doing as well of a job as the current staff is doing.

Darn, I'm not going to proofread all that junk. Please excuse any disjointed sentences....

 

[dionythicus]

Rish posted before I finished typing, but here's my .02.

Perhaps something we should consider is deciding once and for all: is this an adult site (with some profanity and mature content) or is it a "children might be watching" site and we tone it down entirely for the sake of the underage? I know we have a forum for adult stuff, maybe that's the only place where profanity (outright or implied) should be allowed and all other forums must be kept completely clean of such things. Is it so hard to use, "Wow, that lavablood is gorgeous" instead of "OMG"? Or open a thesaurus for other adjectives in place of imagined profanity? We wouldn't even have to debate whether "freak" is a weak replacement for the F bomb if we think of other words to use that would be absolutely benign. After all, we're typing with our hands, not blurting out of our mouths, so there is some delay and thought that goes into a post before you hit OK.

 

[wilomn]

Hey Rich, I feel like I've slipped back in time and stepped a couple of dimensions to the side and am now reliving the past.

Seems Fauna had a few of these discussions as well. In fact, I bet the ones there and the ones here are almost identical post wise, though different users made them.

Interesting isn't it?

 

[wade]

Rich, I just want to go on record as saying that over all I think the mods are doing a great job, with very littte thanks.

I just wish they would quite giving me &%$*&% infraction points.

 

[jazzgeek]

I just wish they would quite giving me &%$*&% infraction points.

Did you see what he just did? OMG!


Seriously -

If I don't like what's on television, I change the channel. That analogy pretty much sums it up for me.

Dale

 

[wstphal]

Perhaps something we should consider is deciding once and for all: is this an adult site (with some profanity and mature content) or is it a "children might be watching" site and we tone it down entirely for the sake of the underage?

I agree totally. Of course, that would mean no pandas too!

 

[wstphal]

On another line of thought, the issue of consistency of enforcement of the rules was brought up. Let's see, I just looked at the posting stats and it shows that 921 posts were made in the past 24 hours. So, let's see, we have 3 moderators here at this time, so I guess I should check with them to make sure they each read their allocation of 307 posts.

Oh, yeah, I do see that. Some degree of consistency would be nice, though. If you spell out the f-bomb, all mods should act ~about~ the same regarding that violation of the rules. If you make an explicit death thread, all mods should act the same on that.

Mind you, to the extent that I can detect the actions of mods, I think consistency IS present, so I have no complaints on that score.