F/T vs. Live Debate

[DarkSmoke]

Nope. He just LOVES risking injury to his animal under the guise of "natural".

you know what, im not gonna even try to argue with you.
No, you won't get me to continue the last argument we last started as already stated talking with you is useless, So do yourself a favour and stop wasting bytes trying to make me look like the bad guy, and as last time try to respect everyone like i do. cheers !

 

[starsevol]

you know what, im not gonna even try to argue with you.
No, you won't get me to continue the last argument we last started as already stated talking with you is useless, So do yourself a favour and stop wasting bytes trying to make me look like the bad guy, and as last time try to respect everyone like i do. cheers !

No way do you respect your snake....
you ARE the bad guy.

 

[DarkSmoke]

No way do you respect your snake....
you ARE the bad guy.

yes i am , i have many names, "Mr Evil, Evil King, Frieza, Devimon, Dr Bad" just to name a few muahahhaha.

 

[starsevol]

yes i am , i have many names, "Mr Evil, Evil King, Frieza, Devimon, Dr Bad" just to name a few muahahhaha.

Anyone who feeds live when they don't have to is a piece of crap keeper, and in my opinion just half a notch above a pedophile. I detest people who do what you do for fun....

You have no business keeping any living thing...

 

[gelshark]

dogs a'int an evolution, dogs are a lot of breeds made by humans from wolves. they didn't evolve to eat trash , the stray ones do it to survive. They are still listed under the order Carnivora , they are true carnivores.

after dogs started evolving then man started selective breeding them to come up with the different breeds
if they are true carnivores why do they eat all kinds of garbage and non meat items? you say to survive? snakes don't eat veggies to survive, if there is no meat to eat they dont start experimenting with fruits and veggies and grains and cereals, they just die

 

[VickyChaiTea]

Darksmoke, it's nice to know that when you're provided with a valid point making your argument wrong, you just decide to stop talking, but don't change your mind. Very mature.

I agree with starsevol, obviously. lol

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

after dogs started evolving then man started selective breeding them to come up with the different breeds
if they are true carnivores why do they eat all kinds of garbage and non meat items? you say to survive? snakes don't eat veggies to survive, if there is no meat to eat they dont start experimenting with fruits and veggies and grains and cereals, they just die

I think he's thinking of cats, which are obligate carnivores, rather than dogs, which were scavengers (eating mostly animals, but also carrion and plant life when it was available... makes sense evolution-wise, why waste energy hunting and chasing down a rabbit when there's a dead one and some grass right next to you?) long before we domesticated them. Dogs are adapted to eat damn near anything to survive.

 

[DarkSmoke]

Darksmoke, it's nice to know that when you're provided with a valid point making your argument wrong, you just decide to stop talking, but don't change your mind. Very mature.

I agree with starsevol, obviously. lol

there's a reason i stoped talking with starsevol. last post we argued it continuedfor hours and yet to no point. The only target in his mind is to continue to say "your wrong" and he doesn't care to reason it. Whats the point in repeting the whole process? he wants it, but he just wants to continue saying im wrong and a maniac whatever plessure it gives them. Sorry , i don't know if you meant that im mature by sarcasm, maybe im not but i don't care arguing with angry depresed guys. To say the truth i tried argumenting many times on this forums to no reason since my opinion never counted and there was only one person who gave me a bit of credit and teached me to ignore certain people. And i found it as the best way now. i have a list in my mind. and when ever i post to help someone and someome from that list jumps in on me i will ignore him. Well i agree im not yet that good at it since i still answered to this guy but well, still in training!

 

[DarkSmoke]

Dogs have been evolving from millions of years ago but there evolution stoped at wolves, foxes, and other canines. the domestic dog was created by us humans from mix breeding of those canines. For those saying cats are true carnivores, there dried food is still not 100% meat and containes veggs, then it should kill them. Of course it will not! they still have the correct enzymes in their stomach acid to digest and the reason is simple, then they eat ther carcass they will contain some veggies and things. Lets not try to compare reptiles to mammals. we all know there digestive systems are way different especialy in snakes wich are unique so not even comparing them to other reptiles makes sense, let alone to mammals.

The dogs digestive system is made straight, to quickly digest meat and bones so even the way there digestive system is shows they're carnivores unlike our digestive system which shows were omnivores. even their teeth shows they're carnivores unlike ours which show were omnivores.

the thing is this is subject were science won't help, this is a big buisness made by the dog food people.2days before i got him i started reading about them and when i was reading posts and blogs from 10year breeders and such people i was like what are they saying! i never heard of this. in my country its very rare to see raw diets they believe it makes them bloodthirsty animals. But i decided to give it a try since i tough its useless for all these people to lie about it. after a Week feeding him raw meaty bones and other meat there were the efffects : whitened teeth, mouth getting pinkier, doggy smell gone, bad mouth smell gone. I was amazed!!

from my part i dont have more to say im not a scientist nore a vet its just looking at a dog its common sense that they're carnivores. but instead of asking me question i can tell you that there are many vets supporting this and the internet is full of info, if im not wrong it was Dr Ian billinghurst who first started supporting this. as a fact i don't even know how this discussion ended up on dogs since from my original big long post there were maybe 2 sentences concerning dog., anyway thats the way i think it and its by proof so you can do your searches for info like i did,.

 

[Shiari]

Darksmoke, stop. Just stop. You clearly are highly misinformed about domestic animals. Dogs were not created from mixed breeding of different canine families. They're wolves that evolved over the last several thousand years to be able to cohabitate with human populations readily. The early evolution was primarily accidental, and only later became purposeful. Most "breeds" are actually extremely modern... as in only a few centuries old. There are, of course, older 'breeds' out there, but the vast majority of purposefully made ones are recent.

Cats are obligate carnivores. That does NOT mean plants will kill them. Please don't actually be that naive to use such an obvious straw man argument. They would naturally consume the gut contents of their prey and thus have some contact with plant materials. However, unlike dogs, humans, and most other carnivorous or omnivorous animals, they cannot create certain needed amino acids out of other ones. Arachadonic acid and Taurine are found in those forms specifically in meat, not plants. Thus, a cat *needs* meat in order to survive, and needs significant quantities of it. This is what makes them an obligate carnivore. Their gut is also very short, showing their primarily meat-based diet. Humans and dogs, being more omnivorous, have intestines better adapted to dealing with a mix of vegetable and animal foodstuffs.

 

[DarkSmoke]

Darksmoke, stop. Just stop. You clearly are highly misinformed about domestic animals. Dogs were not created from mixed breeding of different canine families. They're wolves that evolved over the last several thousand years to be able to cohabitate with human populations readily. The early evolution was primarily accidental, and only later became purposeful. Most "breeds" are actually extremely modern... as in only a few centuries old. There are, of course, older 'breeds' out there, but the vast majority of purposefully made ones are recent.

Cats are obligate carnivores. That does NOT mean plants will kill them. Please don't actually be that naive to use such an obvious straw man argument. They would naturally consume the gut contents of their prey and thus have some contact with plant materials. However, unlike dogs, humans, and most other carnivorous or omnivorous animals, they cannot create certain needed amino acids out of other ones. Arachadonic acid and Taurine are found in those forms specifically in meat, not plants. Thus, a cat *needs* meat in order to survive, and needs significant quantities of it. This is what makes them an obligate carnivore. Their gut is also very short, showing their primarily meat-based diet. Humans and dogs, being more omnivorous, have intestines better adapted to dealing with a mix of vegetable and animal foodstuffs.

thats not what iv been reading abou dogs. every site/research from breeders and even the vet that first supported the raw diet said that they have digestive system bettter suited for raw meaty bones i don't understand why your saying the opposite maybe its me not understanding you? i also don't understand why everyone doesn't agree on this since you can see the possitive effects of feeding their natural diet(in my opinion) in a few days like i did and many others do This is proof seen with the eyes not with research. most dried food canned food is mostly meat at least the high quality ones so even the pet food industries agree that they need significant quantity of meet like cats to survive. cats and dogs are both listed under the same order: carnivora and they both are best suited to eat mostly meat and only the least of plants/fruits and they're both carnivorse. this is common sense and proof seen with eyes again. i will stop tough since this is turning into another hopeless continous argument. so im out, peace.

 

[ratsncorns]

This thread is funny.

DarkSmoke, you are wrong. You really are highly misinformed. You have no clue what you are talking about. Please do some real research reading scientific, peer-reviewed journals. If you are in uni/college/whatever you should have access to such things, so please do some research about the subject then get back to us.

Also, please use spell check. Its really hard to read/understand your posts.

 

[starsevol]

there's a reason i stoped talking with starsevol. last post we argued it continuedfor hours and yet to no point. The only target in his mind is to continue to say "your wrong" and he doesn't care to reason it. Whats the point in repeting the whole process? he wants it, but he just wants to continue saying im wrong and a maniac whatever plessure it gives them. Sorry , i don't know if you meant that im mature by sarcasm, maybe im not but i don't care arguing with angry depresed guys. QUOTE]

Wrong YET AGAIN!!!!!!!!

This ignorant child knows nothing about alot of things!!

And he feeds his snake live BECAUSE HE WANTS TO.
It's wrong.
He KNOWS it's wrong.
He just WANTS to.
Now, why someone would want to do something that is proven time and again to be wrong and harmful, I don't know.
A disease of the mind, perhaps?
Poor snake......to have an owner like this....

 

[LBoz]

Beth, I was sorry to recently read that you are a depressed guy. I honestly had no idea...I'm here for ya, mister! :sidestep:

 

[Shiari]

thats not what iv been reading abou dogs. every site/research from breeders and even the vet that first supported the raw diet said that they have digestive system bettter suited for raw meaty bones i don't understand why your saying the opposite maybe its me not understanding you? i also don't understand why everyone doesn't agree on this since you can see the possitive effects of feeding their natural diet(in my opinion) in a few days like i did and many others do This is proof seen with the eyes not with research. most dried food canned food is mostly meat at least the high quality ones so even the pet food industries agree that they need significant quantity of meet like cats to survive. cats and dogs are both listed under the same order: carnivora and they both are best suited to eat mostly meat and only the least of plants/fruits and they're both carnivorse. this is common sense and proof seen with eyes again. i will stop tough since this is turning into another hopeless continous argument. so im out, peace.

A raw diet, well researched, well planned, well introduced, and carefully monitored along with a veterinarian can be okay for many pets. The main worries are incorrect proportions of ingredients, contamination and perforations of the gastrointestinal tract. Dogs and cats can suffer from salmonella and E. coli just as people do... and feeding raw fish if you live in the northwest can be fatal to the pet. Hence, research, planning, and monitoring. If you don't balance correctly the mix of meat and calcium supply, you cause severe bone and heart problems. Hence, research and monitoring again. My own dog would probably die on a raw food diet.

However, as to "only the least", wolves in the wild will eat anything they can in winter when prey is scarce, hence why they are decently capable of handling vegetable material. My first dog's favorite snack was carrots. He had no problems digesting any plant material I threw at him. I gave my current dog a carrot once... and it came out the other end still recognisable. His guts don't fully work right, hence why gets his processed, and thus more easily digested, dog food only.

I am amused that you did not at all acknowledge that you were wrong about cats and being obligate carnivores, and wrong when you said that dogs came from multiple canid families.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Seamus, I know you didn't set out to argue this minor point, but wolves/foxes etc are entirely different species from the domestic dog (Canus familiarus). They eat and digest plant matter happily and easily, just try offering your dog a carrot or some sweet potato. Of course the raw food advocates say this or that... they're trying to promote a certain idea. It could even be possible they're affiliated with the meat industry, in this day and age. I'm sure if you go on a website about the Scientology religion you'll read that we're all alien spirits that can only be cleansed for the low, low price of $49.99 a month... you have to filter what you read and decide based on not one source but several conflicting ones, whether or not information is true.

 

[DarkSmoke]

Seamus, I know you didn't set out to argue this minor point, but wolves/foxes etc are entirely different species from the domestic dog (Canus familiarus). They eat and digest plant matter happily and easily, just try offering your dog a carrot or some sweet potato. Of course the raw food advocates say this or that... they're trying to promote a certain idea. It could even be possible they're affiliated with the meat industry, in this day and age. I'm sure if you go on a website about the Scientology religion you'll read that we're all alien spirits that can only be cleansed for the low, low price of $49.99 a month... you have to filter what you read and decide based on not one source but several conflicting ones, whether or not information is true.

yeah i know and thats what i did , i didn't just get this idea from one website/person/vet. found multiple websites breeders with the same idea and forums and also by witnessing all the good effects on my dog with my owns eyes these people stated(else if i didn't see them i would have no reason to continue on this people side and switch back).

 

[DarkSmoke]

This thread is funny.

DarkSmoke, you are wrong. You really are highly misinformed. You have no clue what you are talking about. Please do some real research reading scientific, peer-reviewed journals. If you are in uni/college/whatever you should have access to such things, so please do some research about the subject then get back to us.

Also, please use spell check. Its really hard to read/understand your posts.

the problem is my friend, that in college/uni/ that you stated (wich im not in since i started working in an internet cafe`) it is know that they are teached about the dog diet by the people from the pet food industries so that wouldn't be reliable. again my information is from breeders/forums/websites/blogs and the most important from my own eyes witnessing the great effects of raw diet on my dog.

 

[Emily1188]

Seamus, I know you didn't set out to argue this minor point, but wolves/foxes etc are entirely different species from the domestic dog (Canus familiarus). They eat and digest plant matter happily and easily, just try offering your dog a carrot or some sweet potato. Of course the raw food advocates say this or that... they're trying to promote a certain idea. It could even be possible they're affiliated with the meat industry, in this day and age.

Duh what now? Let's not paint all raw feeders in the same stroke, thanks. I do provide vegetable matter for my dog and would never suggest that they cannot or do not digest it, given their long history as scavengers. However, I do not believe that all kibble will kill your pets, or whatever. I have no affiliation with the meat industry, and to be honest, even the most radical raw feeders I know (who feed strictly meat, bone, and organ) have zero affiliation with the meat industry. Again, please bear in mind, not all raw feeders advocate the same things and there are a variety of diets toted on the web, some much more balanced and thoughtful than others. It's difficult to accurately say what "the raw feeders" say... Not everyone that feeds raw is constantly spouting pseudo-science, I promise.

Also, the taxonomy of dogs has been updated and they not an "entirely different species" from wolves - they are classed as a subspecies and the proper scientific name is Canis lupus familiaris and has been since 1993.

 

[DarkSmoke]

Duh what now? Let's not paint all raw feeders in the same stroke, thanks. I do provide vegetable matter for my dog and would never suggest that they cannot or do not digest it, given their long history as scavengers. However, I do not believe that all kibble will kill your pets, or whatever. I have no affiliation with the meat industry, and to be honest, even the most radical raw feeders I know (who feed strictly meat, bone, and organ) have zero affiliation with the meat industry. Again, please bear in mind, not all raw feeders advocate the same things and there are a variety of diets toted on the web, some much more balanced and thoughtful than others. It's difficult to accurately say what "the raw feeders" say... Not everyone that feeds raw is constantly spouting pseudo-science, I promise.

Also, the taxonomy of dogs has been updated and they not an "entirely different species" from wolves - they are classed as a subspecies and the proper scientific name is Canis lupus familiaris and has been since 1993.

iv been trying to explain for hours that they are in the same order carnivoria and under sub species of the wolves. but seems like no one cares. also i never said it will kill them but that most problems is caused by bad diet from dried food, great post!!!