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Getting tired of it...

Ok - my very long $.02 worth...

Several people have mentioned that being "just a pet keeper" is fine - and I agree. Just keep in mind that somebody who is only interested in keeping a pet or two will probably not have the same exact interests as somebody who either is already breeding and into genetics, etc, or somebody who wants to get into those subjects. Most breeders were pet keepers at one time, and some (but not all) pet keepers will eventually become serious about either breeding, or just keeping, observing, and learning more about their pets and their natural history, and more in depth, than a pet keeper would care about. Neither is right or wrong, but they are different goals and interests.

My brother in law is a professional computer programmer and all around "computer guy" who is often able to help me with my beginner computer questions and problems. I have no desire to ever get to his level of computer expertise - I only want to know what I need to know to keep my computer "healthy". He is not better or smarter than I am; he just chose to spend his time learning computers instead of cornsnakes (silly choice, but more lucrative, lol!). But I doubt he would find my computer discussion and observations all that exciting, since he probably made the same observations either 20 years ago, or when the particular system was first built. I don't see that fact as unusual, or that there is anything wrong with it.

I don't read all that many posts. I base my decisions based mostly on whether it looks like it will be interesting. If it is a plea for help, I will probably look if the question seems interesting and different, if the person posting seems like they have already tried and failed to find a solution, and if it looks like it is written well enough that I won't have to read it several times just to figure out what they are asking.

OTOH, if it is a post that might just be interesting reading, such as those in Chit-Chat, I look for subjects that sound intriguing. Rarely do I choose to read or not read based on the name of the person posting. There are a few exceptions - those who I have learned from experience often have very good or very bad (IMO, of course) posts may get more - or less - attention from me due to their past history.

In summary, I do have to say that I miss the stimulating genetics discussions on new or possibly new traits that would involve all of the breeder members, and even draw Rich and Don S. into some of them. And I miss some of the silly fun conversations like the old Haiku poetry threads. But as was mentioned, change is inevitable. I am sure this site (like all others) will evolve into whatever the majority want it to become, and that is the way it should be. We will all decide individually whether that is good or bad, and stay or leave accordingly.
 
Kathy, your post is prime example of what it is like to deal with you... Well said!

Regards... Tim of T and J
 
kathylove said:
Several people have mentioned that being "just a pet keeper" is fine - and I agree. Just keep in mind that somebody who is only interested in keeping a pet or two will probably not have the same exact interests as somebody who either is already breeding and into genetics, etc, or somebody who wants to get into those subjects. Most breeders were pet keepers at one time, and some (but not all) pet keepers will eventually become serious about either breeding, or just keeping, observing, and learning more about their pets and their natural history, and more in depth, than a pet keeper would care about. Neither is right or wrong, but they are different goals and interests.

My brother in law is a professional computer programmer and all around "computer guy" who is often able to help me with my beginner computer questions and problems. I have no desire to ever get to his level of computer expertise - I only want to know what I need to know to keep my computer "healthy". He is not better or smarter than I am; he just chose to spend his time learning computers instead of cornsnakes (silly choice, but more lucrative, lol!). But I doubt he would find my computer discussion and observations all that exciting, since he probably made the same observations either 20 years ago, or when the particular system was first built. I don't see that fact as unusual, or that there is anything wrong with it.

I don't read all that many posts. I base my decisions based mostly on whether it looks like it will be interesting. If it is a plea for help, I will probably look if the question seems interesting and different, if the person posting seems like they have already tried and failed to find a solution, and if it looks like it is written well enough that I won't have to read it several times just to figure out what they are asking.

OTOH, if it is a post that might just be interesting reading, such as those in Chit-Chat, I look for subjects that sound intriguing. Rarely do I choose to read or not read based on the name of the person posting. There are a few exceptions - those who I have learned from experience often have very good or very bad (IMO, of course) posts may get more - or less - attention from me due to their past history.

In summary, I do have to say that I miss the stimulating genetics discussions on new or possibly new traits that would involve all of the breeder members, and even draw Rich and Don S. into some of them. And I miss some of the silly fun conversations like the old Haiku poetry threads. But as was mentioned, change is inevitable. I am sure this site (like all others) will evolve into whatever the majority want it to become, and that is the way it should be. We will all decide individually whether that is good or bad, and stay or leave accordingly.
This sums it up VERY well.

Hey newbs. You missed the point of my post :grin01:
I wasn't saying that I don't think that pet owners have anything to add. I don't think that you guys can't offer helpful advice. If you have an answer to question, then give it. You are helping someone out, and that's the point of this forum.
What I meant by "I am less likely to read the pet owner posts" is, I don't to read a post about how your new snake had it's first poop. That holds no interest for me. I deal with thousands of reptile poops a week. I don't need to see a pic of any more, or hear it described vividly. But I do look at the pics of the snakes that people post (pet owner and breeder alike.) And I do read some of the questions. And I do offer an answer to the questions if I have some input.

The breeder oriented threads that I enjoy more are talks about genetics, and breeding techniques, and ways to get the non-feeder hatchlings eating, etc.

And I do enjoy some of the silly threads. And I post on them.

It's not so much that there is a divide here, as much as there are two different groups of people that use this forum. There is no reason to think that there is any sort of barrier between us. Some of us here have tons of snakes and a few years of experience with them. Others have one snake and only a month of experience. But we all have a love for Corn Snakes. No need to imagine a divide.

And we all need to stop taking everything so personally. No one is being judged or ridiculed because they have less snakes than anyone else.

Oh... and
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TandJ again.
 
Oh... and
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TandJ again

I am not sure for what Trev, but thanks.. :cheers:

And we all need to stop taking everything so personally.

Well when people go out of their way to make things personal with the mentioning of names, what is one to do? Crap talking does not do anyone any good and gets people a little resentful.. I have made a choice not to contribute much anymore or go to chat much anymore, and for that I sleep better at night, and don't have the urge to throw the computer out the damn window..

Ah well, each to their own, because its their bed and they have to lay in it..

Regards.. Tim of T and J
 
All kidding aside, and even most of the seriousness ;), whatever hurdles that stand between pet owners and serious breeders might exist, real or imaginary, are so low that the "crossover" into the other territory is quite easily achieved with a little reading, research, and investigation...

I just wish more people would learn to research a little bit using the search functions and FAQ's that are amply available throughout the site. Some people spent alot of time and energy compiling very complete descriptions of the most common scenarios and situations. The least we, as newbie snake owners, can do is to read them and put them to use. I read them all while waiting for my account to be activated. In fact, with enough time and research invested before making my first post, I realized that most of my questions have been answered, and even as I approach new situations, I find that I am already prepared to handle them. It really is amazing what a bit of reading and foresight can do for someone.

Hopefully...the folks that have been being aggressive in the voicing of their opinions have read through this, as well. It can only be a benefit to everyone involved if each practices a bit of restraint and respect in their replies. Sometimes...you just need to let it go.
 
Okay~ this thread started off pretty interesting~ and I wanted to say something......but the truth is I got bored several pages back and jumped to the end. I very rarely have anything to say here anymore~ so I'm just gonna chime right in~ someone may have already said this...

IT'S JANUARY

Yep~
It's January. Very few cornsnakes are breeding, very few if any cornsnakes are hatching. It's a just the down time of year. All there really is to talk about right now is hobbyist stuff, and when your bored with that....well then to bicker with each other! There are just not that many interesting things going on in the Cornsnake world in JANUARY.

I'm feeling old saying this~
But there is nothing new happening here. It's happened before and it will happen again. the board will be flooded with newcomers who bought babies last summer/fall and now are trying to find others with the same passion to share the joys and frustrations of this new pet. The "Old timers" (greats? get a life! LOL!) get frustrated and bored. Bickering breaks out. Silliness abounds. Eventually the corns kick in and the posts turn to "why are they doing that?" and "Eggs? What I do with these?" and the Old timers (Yes~ I called them old again) will get even more frustrated, they will cruise in and out of the site not finding anything they feel like adding to. The middlemen (thats the only thing I could think to call the not newbies, not oldtimers) will hold it together trying to keep the newbies informed and out of trouble ~ sooner or later the eggs start dropping, the topics start to get more interesting.......
and then it's home again
Until the breeding and baby season winds down for another year and the newbies with 07' babies start coming out of the wood work again.

As far as the mass exodus to another site? There is nothing new under the sun. This has happened before too.

One of two things will happen. The old timers will slowly trickle back in when the topics here get more interesting again.....

Or

This forum will develop a new set of "old timers" from the newbies here now and the new site will continue on its merry way until is full enough to no longer accommodate all the "newbies" and "old timers" and yet another forum is begun~ or all the "old timers" return to the original forum in mass and leave the new forum to the newbies.

Okay~ good. Now maybe I'll read the rest of this thread. I just had to say something......it's been a long time since I cruised through this site and saw something that actually peaked my interest enough to respond!
 
:bowdown: Kathy Love has spoken....very well put.

I have to agree with JM too. This is the slow time, we're all kinda bored, anxiously anticipating the eggs to hatch...waiting to hear the results of new projects, waiting lists are being formed....and like any discussion group, it goes through phases.
Once the eggs start to hatch, people will begin to post their new babies, Dean will show off all his new acquisitions....we really should start a pool to see how many he acquires this year..... :crazy02: And we'll all be sitting at our computers watching the Egg Cam to see what interesting hatchlings are pipping....
 
JM :o) said:
Okay~ this thread started off pretty interesting~ and I wanted to say something......but the truth is I got bored several pages back and jumped to the end. I very rarely have anything to say here anymore~ so I'm just gonna chime right in~ someone may have already said this...

IT'S JANUARY

Yep~
It's January. Very few cornsnakes are breeding, very few if any cornsnakes are hatching. It's a just the down time of year. All there really is to talk about right now is hobbyist stuff, and when your bored with that....well then to bicker with each other! There are just not that many interesting things going on in the Cornsnake world in JANUARY.


One of two things will happen. The old timers will slowly trickle back in when the topics here get more interesting again.....

Or

This forum will develop a new set of "old timers" from the newbies here now and the new site will continue on its merry way until is full enough to no longer accommodate all the "newbies" and "old timers" and yet another forum is begun~ or all the "old timers" return to the original forum in mass and leave the new forum to the newbies.


I utterly agree that for a few months of the year theres NOTHING happening. Brumation is 6/8 weeks of no photos. Breeding season is just kicking off... Theres already been a few threads but nothing thats caught my interests. Theres no NEW and EXCITING pairings quite yet, I'm sure they will be under lock and key for a while yet.

As for the turning of the tides, of course thats going to happen. The source will quickly gain as much popularity (if you can call it that) as here. I never quite understood why a forum with 10,049 members cannot accommodate EVERYONE from pet owners, to breeders to experts. Everyone contributes something to a community. What is even more ludicrous is to create another forum with the exact same intentions as this one? :shrugs: To each his own I suppose.

But as you say JM - things will slowly turn back around when tempers flare or noobs declare their rights on other forums. There will always be in influx of members going back and forth now. Its quite sad that the old community has been split. Ones left behind must feel some sort of resentment? I know of a few "old timers" who dare not touch the source with a 10ft bargepole... But thats their prerogative.

As for the future of CS - Im sure it will shape out pretty soon.
 
Oh look, it's come back
Creativity phrased in
seven - five - seven.

;)

tyflier said:
All kidding aside, and even most of the seriousness ;), whatever hurdles that stand between pet owners and serious breeders might exist, real or imaginary, are so low that the "crossover" into the other territory is quite easily achieved with a little reading, research, and investigation...
As it is, this is where I stand in the hobby; I'm coming over to the dark side. :grin01: I'll be producing my first clutch(es) this season, and while I have the "am I doing everything right?" jibblies and have asked the same questions of experienced breeders that they've been asked, and graciously responded to, numerous times before, I'm confident that (barring any heat spikes in this old farmhouse that lacks air conditioning) I'll do just fine.

We were all newbs at some point, and I'll agree with the consensus that newbs will many times have worthwhile points to contribute. To echo Trevor's points, the posts regarding first sheds/first feedings/first poops are not something I'll usually respond to, been there, done that. But I won't chastise a new "pet owner" for their enthusiasm - why be a buzz kill to someone who is expressing excitement over a new experience, even if it's mundane and commonplace to you?

The posts that absolutely frost me, however, are the judgements of "Well, everyone, it's obvious that this person doesn't have the best interests of their animal in mind because they've opted for husbandry practice X, instead of choosing Y, as I've suggested." What usually follows is something akin to a 40s monster flick....the villagers scurry to get the torches and shovels, ready to run the latest "monster" out of the village.

As I see it, the beauty of keeping corns is the latitude of conditions under which they thrive. Yes, there are the obvious choices - don't house them with kings, don't use cedar for a substrate - but I'm neither worse nor better a keeper if I prefer to use newspaper for substrate over aspen, or if I incubate eggs in moss instead of vermiculite. We all have different amounts of time and resources to devote to the hobby.

As an example, I've expanded my collection to nineteen corns and one king since I got my first snake in August of 2004. My pockets aren't very deep, so it made sense to move to plastic tubs instead of glass tanks. My hatchlings and yearlings are kept in 12 quart Sterlite tubs, but (GASP!!!!) I provide a hide on the warm side only....I've found that my charges are doing just fine burrowing into the aspen on the cool side.

Call me presumptuous, but I would venture to say that if I were to appear on this site with a "Join Date" of December 2006, and a post count consisting of two digits, I probably would have been publicly chastised for this - and given the group dynamic I sometimes see on this site, I certainly can empathize with those newbs who, out of exasperation, respond with a Cartmanesque "Screw you guys, I'm going home".

And the irony, of course, is that newb may very well be more observant, vigilant, and dedicated to their animals than the villagers who are running them out.

There has been a "fractionation" here, obviously. It's why the other site came to be. I've been told there has been one in the past, which was the genesis for this site. There probably will be schisms in the future as well, and perhaps even more sites.

As I see it, there could be eleventeen cornsnake sites down the road. What will persuade me to visit, and hang out at them, is twofold: the quality of information it provides, and the quality of people providing that information.....and I'll "weigh" the former of the two at a much higher degree. The rest is just posturing and bloviating, and life is too short.

It's jsut sankes. :cheers:

regards,
jazz
 
ArpeggioAngel said:
You have a way with words
Then why did I screw up the haiku? It's "five - seven - five".....which, if substituted, would make the last line four syllables.

Argh. ;)

regards,
jazz
 
All the responses have intrigued me lately. As I was reading and thinking another thought came to mind (ya'll can run now if you'd like). Maybe for me it's more about common courtesy than about all of this old timers vs. newbies, or pet person vs. breeder. I know that it seems that any discourteous post used to be dealt with quickly and easily and they weren't as common. Now it seems that every night I open up a new thread where someone was being discourteous. That might just be the general shift of the population or just how I perceive it. It seems to me that we should be able to get into a heated debate about things (like cohabbing) without bashing eachother since this is a forum of (mostly) adults. Then again that also goes along with using grammar and punctuation so who knows :rolleyes: . Maybe we can just all remember to be a little more polite and it will help.

~Katie
 
PtDnsr said:
All the responses have intrigued me lately. As I was reading and thinking another thought came to mind (ya'll can run now if you'd like). Maybe for me it's more about common courtesy than about all of this old timers vs. newbies, or pet person vs. breeder. I know that it seems that any discourteous post used to be dealt with quickly and easily and they weren't as common. Now it seems that every night I open up a new thread where someone was being discourteous. That might just be the general shift of the population or just how I perceive it. It seems to me that we should be able to get into a heated debate about things (like cohabbing) without bashing eachother since this is a forum of (mostly) adults. Then again that also goes along with using grammar and punctuation so who knows :rolleyes: . Maybe we can just all remember to be a little more polite and it will help.

~Katie


Very good points. It all *should* come down to a mutual respect. And that respect shouldn't be based on the number of snakes one has nor the number of years they have been keeping them. It should be based on the validity of the statements one makes, and nothing more.

Part of the problem is that there seems to be a failure to recognize that alot of what is accepted as "standard practice" in keeping cornsnakes is still merely opinion rather than fact. You can read 5 books from 5 different authors all considered "experts" in the field. But each one will have different opinions on different aspects of herp care. Sure...some of the information will be the same from one to the other. But there will always be the statement "I have found it best for me to...", and people tend to forget that these are opinions...to be debated, tried, and improved upon...or not. Once the idea of opinion is lost, respect very quickly follows. It becomes a matter of "I am right and you are wrong", and that really isn't true at all. It *should* be "This is how I do it, but you might find something different to work better in your situation." Obviously, there are still "non-debateable" issues that are tried, tested and true in all situations.

Anyhow...that is what I see happening in many instances...
 
tyflier said:
I see myself as someone who spent months researching everything I could find about cornsnakes before getting one, before becoming a member here, and before contributing to questions asked by new snake owners, even though I myself am a new snake owner. I spent a TON of time and energy answering my own questions from the thousands of available resources as well as from the incredible well of knowledge that exists here. I may not be a "long-time" snake owner, but I feel that the amount of knowledge I have gained over the course of the past 6 months or so of research helps to qualify me in answering some of these "newbie questions", even though I, myself, am considered a newbie snake owner. With that said...if I don't know the answer, or I am not sure of the validity of my answer...I won't offer it. I will wait and see what the "pros" say, and hopefully learn something new.

Well said, tyflier. I feel this way too. I don't think it's wrong to pass on basic information you have learned through research, and I do think it's possible to do so without appearing as though you are in any way an expert. I also think that this is a GOOD thing, because if us "enthusiastic newbs" get to the "can my 2 snakes live 2gether" and "do sankes rly need heat?" threads first, we save the more experienced and seasoned folks the strain of having to reply to the same old questions over and over again.

Right??
 
This is a thread where...

no matter what you say, someone will have an issue.

A great line I live by yearly came from one of our greatest Canadian Power Trios...

"No changes are permanent... but change is."
Tom Sawyer-RUSH.



BTW... I was going to ask about genetics and who I should pair this year...but I'll keep quit. :eek1:
 
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