Help? When to force feed and possibly "induce pippin'?

[sierraherps]

Ok, soooo, its now like "65" days... and the prmemie shed on Jul 20th yet STILL hasn't eaten, and there are still a few GOOD and PLUMP looking eggs not pipping! Ok well not as plump as they were, but only a TOUCH is sucked in looking...
So here I am once again, asking PLEASE for your help... cuz I'm wondering if at some point maybe we should just break the babies out ourselves?
And how long before we attempt "syringe feeding" the preemie? We even went and bought a LIVE pinky, no interest WHAT so ever, even over night left with it.....
We CAN NOT go through all we have, then FINALLY get this gorgeous surprise "Striped T....whatever..." just to watch it starve to death.... right..?

THANKX AND LUVS AS ALWAYS...
Sean & Mary Ann

 

[sierraherps]

We CAN NOT go through all we have, then FINALLY get this gorgeous surprise "Striped T....whatever..." just to watch it starve to death.... right..?

PS: This preemie....

THANKX AND LUVS AS ALWAYS...
Sean & Mary Ann

 

[MysticExotics]

Just to confirm, the eggs are at 65 days & not 65 days since the premie hatched, right?

IMO, I am of the mindset to let nature take it's course on the eggs. I did cut some eggs last year, but when you do that, you don't know if you're forcing them to come out before they're fully developed, or you could be introducing bacteria into the egg & cause them to die.
I know some breeders will assist by cutting into the egg, but I let them do it on their own. If they're not strong enough to do that, it's probably nature saying they are not strong enough to live. I know it sounds harsh, but natural selection allows the strongest to survive, & keeps the weaker genes from continuing.

If the baby is only a couple weeks old & had it's first shed on the 20th, I wouldn't start to worry yet.
How soon did you offer first meal? How many times have you offered food?

On my first clutch this year, we had trouble getting them started, in eating. One of my keepers refused 5 meals, before I started tube feeding. I spaced the feedings out at minimum 5-7 days. I tried washing pinks, I tried washing & scenting with fish oil, I tried washing & scenting with used deer mouse bedding & I also tried live pinks, scented with used deer mouse bedding. I had various success with some of the non/problem feeders.

For the one I tube fed, I did it twice. The second time I tube fed him (4 days after the first tube feeding) I left a washed/scented pinky in his bin & told him he needed to figure out how to eat on his own, or he would end up dying. The pink was gone in the morning, & he has eaten two more times since.

Do not offer any more than every 5 days. You can stress them out & they may never eat.
Remember that hatchlings absorb yoke when they hatch, & I waited a couple days after first shed before I offered first meal.

 

[sierraherps]

Yep DAYS since laid.. LOL Our little Super Star "The Tessera that just Can NOT be" was out and wondering Hubby's Birthday morning... July 12 - Eggs were laid May 20th - So I am a hair off, superstar pipped at 52 days and the other eggs Im waiting on are running about 69 days as of today....Jul 29... And THANK YOU for your time and GRAND advice~ We are both less "worried" about our gorgeous little freak of nature...LOL

 

[sierraherps]

: answers to the very kind NWHEATHER: We have tried offering him f/t pinkies, pinkie parts, even a live pinky for about a 12 hour period... Were gonna give him a couple days before trying again - as we were offering daily, so prolly freaking him out! LOL But honestly? This is a baby that even if we wound up Tube feeding him for LIFE... WE WILL! lol Everyone here has made me realize one thing for sure... This super serpent is SPECIAL! And with a more relaxed posture.... I am SURE all will be fine! So THANK YOU! For the time you took to answer so completely and be SO calming!
~Mary Ann & Sean

 

[sierraherps]

Oh shoot,,, one last thing NWHEATHER: As hubby just reminded me, did you read my other posts on this baby? That it was a TWIN, the other one didn't make it - ? Does that make a difference on the whole "yolk absorption" thing? There is STILL the dead twin and what looks like a fair amount of yolk in that now REALLY ugly egg... well here is a pic of it last night.. (the BIG one with the BIG hole) lmao

 

[MysticExotics]

I don't have experience with twins, but I don't think the one that didn't make it would affect the absorption of yoke, with the one that did live.

The only thing I would be concerned about in that aspect, is if for whatever reason, the hatchling left the egg before absorbing the yoke. (If it was left alone after it pipped & came out on it's own, it likely did just fine.)

This is my first eyar breeding, but my second year that I have had clutches. I do not have a lot of experience, but I can tell you what I think might help.

I know it's hard, but leaving them alone in these early stages is critical, IMHO. If they're stressed from frequent handling, or offered food too often, can cause them to be too stressed to start eating effectively.

How soon did you offer first meal?
How many times have you tried?
When was the last time you tried feeding?

I also found (in my limited experience) that I had higher success in feeding when the babies started off in small containers like deli cups or the glad sandwich containers.
I move mine up to the rectangle sized gladware when they're established eaters, & then shoebox sized bins when they are at double pinks.

What works for me, may not work for others.

I would wait a week after the last feeding attempt, then try an xs pink, that has been washed with dawn soap, & if you can find some, either used deer mouse bedding, or used ASF bedding to scent the pinky in. I dry them after thawing in hot water-after washing them in soapy water- then put them in a container of the used bedding, shake it around so it is buried in the bedding, let it sit for 5-10 minutes, then pull the pinks out, make sure there's no bedding & such stuck to the pink, I then put the pink in the small container with the hatchling, & leave them alone for at least 3-4 hours, usually over night.

I would not worry about needing to tube feed just yet. If it does come to that, I can offer my experience, but for now, just focus on giving the little guy time to adjust.

 

[MegF.]

I never cut eggs. If they are meant to come out, they will. As far as non feeding....I don't force feed either. They either eat or they don't. I'm willing to scent, tease, try live etc but if they won't eat, there's a problem. You certainly don't want a non feeder breeding. In all the clutches I've had, only one never ate and 3 were difficult to get started-requiring scenting with an anole to get them to start eating. Those were given to a school as pets and I asked that they not breed them. No sense ruining the inherently good feeding responses in most cornsnakes.

 

[Nanci]

I don't believe in cutting eggs, either. If they are meant to hatch, they will. If they can't, it's probably for the best. I had a clutch this season that was mostly slugs. Six eggs made it to hatching. The first hatchling was an amazing, unknown het. But kinked as hell. Under advice from the co-breeder I reluctantly cut the remaining eggs two days later (two had one small slit each). It took me two days to also figure out that as reluctant as I was to open eggs, I needed to know the morphs of the remaining pips, since the sole survivor is unbreedable. 24 hours after I cut the eggs no babies had emerged so I squeezed the fetuses out. All DIE, all massively deformed.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

I never cut eggs. If they are meant to come out, they will. As far as non feeding....I don't force feed either. They either eat or they don't. I'm willing to scent, tease, try live etc but if they won't eat, there's a problem. You certainly don't want a non feeder breeding. In all the clutches I've had, only one never ate and 3 were difficult to get started-requiring scenting with an anole to get them to start eating. Those were given to a school as pets and I asked that they not breed them. No sense ruining the inherently good feeding responses in most cornsnakes.

I totally agree with you Meg! Mother nature takes care of them in the wild, it's a simple fact that in the wild very few make it to adulthood. Why should we expect all of them to thrive in captivity. I have cut a few eggs on a couple clutches of rare morph Bp eggs.

 

[MegF.]

the green tree python people routinely cut eggs but I've seen some pretty deformed stuff come from them that had to be euthanized that would never have made it out on their own. If they can, they will, if not, there's something wrong. If the shell is too hard or something from poor husbandry, then we need to figure out what that problem is. No sense creating weak breeding stock. It's why I feel so strongly about force feeding too

 

[Caryl]

65 days is NOT a long incubation. I wouldn't even consider cutting anything at that point.

As for your "premie," lay off the attempted feedings for a few days and give the baby a chance to relax. A stressed hatchling - and if you're trying to get it to eat every day it is stressful for the baby - is virtually guaranteed not to eat. Nature has programmed them to keep their stomachs empty if they don't feel safe. This makes them more able to escape from danger. I'd leave the little one completely alone for 3-4 days minimum. No feeding attempts, no handling, no pestering, and a minimum of peeking. Put him/her in the viv in a low-traffic area and relax.

You don't want to inadvertently teach the baby that feeding is scary; this can make it harder to get him/her going on food. I believe that virtually every baby can and will eat. Some just take a different approach, and the trick is finding what works for each one. There are a lot of different scenting tricks to try, and force-feeding is absolutely a last resort. You're nowhere near needing to resort to that extreme at this point.

Relax. I know how anxiety-producing it is when you have eggs just being eggs and refusing to pip. I understand the frustration of having a baby you want so much to survive, yet who hasn't started to eat. Don't give up, but relax. Time is the best thing you can give your clutch and your hatchling at this point.

 

[MegF.]

My eggs routinely go 69 days especially if I incubate at lower temps. This last clutch hatched out sooner than expected for me. Did you wait for first shed before attempting to feed? How long are you waiting before trying to feed each time. What are you feeding? live, f/t, scented and if so, what scent? are you putting it in the tub and leaving it, offering with tongs? what have you tried?

 

[sierraherps]

Day 71....sigh! The eggs look HORRIBLE - still keeping them at *80 on the dot, misted sphagnum... slight condinsation on the walls prove they aren't drying out, but MAN are they caving in, turning brown and looking BAD... compared to how pretty white and plump they have been until about three days after the ONE live twin emerged. Plumped and healthy lloking was due to my PANIC post shortly after being laid, when someone (sorry Im on pretty strong meds, so can't remember who exactly) answerd my photos of the eggs and my this isn't right is it? with "QUICK, get wet sphagnum moss on them they are to dry. - I SO WANT TO SEE A BABY PIP! -

With our last two yrs of attempting breeding. (also the 1st two years EVER for me, and nearly 20 yrs since Sean had been breeding various snakes). well, we both agreed when we let our one surving mated pair hook up, that we would be happy even if JUST ONE egg survived, I just wanted to SEE it happen, and so did Sean, (want me to get to see it... hoping it would finish off the "Snake Sadsack", "Hurt Herper" & "Negative Nelly" that those 1st 5 months of 2009 made me.)
Now, because of that little desperate plea for a pip, and having this ONE that came out sometime while we slept to be there Jul 12th... and seeing nothing except a part of that dead twin ever since...? I am now telling myself "well, you said even if just ONE EGG produces a live baby, you'd be happy, so quit whining," ..... wonder when I'll actually LISTEN to myself though! LOL obviously, not yet...cuz my FINGERS ARE SOOOO CROSSED that at least one or two more of what "appeared to be 4 or so healthy eggs a week ago", just suddenly pop theri little heads out! LOL .............dangit!
PIC I took yeterday:

 

[sierraherps]

 

[MegF.]

Condensation on the walls means too much water and misting the moss also adds to excessive water directly on the eggs. If you need to add water, add it at the edge of the container. The perlite will allow excess water to go to the bottom and not drown the eggs. There should be a light fog on the container sides, not condensation. You want humidity, not water....humidity is moisture in the air. The eggs just look like they went bad though. Moldy eggs get a white fuzz on them when the moisture is excessive. Bad eggs turn green and blue for the most part.

 

[Em Wright]

What's that brown stuff? It's kinda hard to make out in the photos.

 

[Hillybean]

Well, I am newbie...but if you had your first luck this year at actually producing one hatchling...I would get the mom and dad healthy and try again next year. You got one this year, maybe next year you would have more luck.

I don't have any experience with reptile breeding, but condensation on the side of container is too much moisture from what I have read on the topic.

I'd focus on the one you have..it is a looker!