Hybrid Markers List

[Drizzt80]

In an effort to gain more knowledge for myself, I would love if those individuals that are identifying hybrids visually would come here and list these "hybrid markers" that appear to be more obvious than I can pick up on. For example, to date, I have asked the question (many times) on what exactly visually identifies a creamsicle, and have yet to get definite specific answers to that question. :shrugs:

I'd appreciate it if we could start a list here, NOT DEBATE THE ISSUE, but start a list here of what is visually marking corns as being hybrid. If you want to debate the issue, please use any of the other number of threads that are already doing it!!

Please list the species being mixed into corns to make the hybrid as well as the visual identifiers of that specific cross when making your post. I would prefer for the list to have definite things listed (scale count, pattern, belly scutes etc.), as opposed to "kinda sorta" and "sometimes" examples. Please (as necessary) add disclaimers to the accuracy of said markers.

Thank you, and hopefully this thread can have some academic benefit.
D80

 

[Vinman]

Dispite all the nagitve crap from you I'm still willing to help, here is the only hybrid that I can post a corn X honduran , the rest are too large and I cant resize them because of my lack of knowlage of the computer. If you want more I can send you some more pic's of my hybrids through my yahoo.com account. all are half corn half king [email protected]

 

[tyflier]

Vinman--

Email me some pics, I'll resize them and post them for you, and you can list the identifiers. [email protected]

 

[Drizzt80]

Dispite all the nagitve crap from you I'm still willing to help,

Yeah, and what a great way to start out your post . . .

If you could find the time, a list of the identifiers would be great. A picture is nice, but for someone without the picture and with only an unknown snake in front of you, what are the identifiers for a Honduran X Corn?? That's what I'm looking for here.

D80

 

[Vinman]

Drizz there is no one way to tell a hybrid, you have to get a feel for it. The scale count does not matter you may get a hybrid with the corecct scale count of a corn and look like one . You have to see a real lot to start to tell the diffrance. As in the case of the guy that thought he had a amber and it was a yellow rat cross. I picked up on it right away . There are so slight suttellies that differ a pure and a hybrid sometimes, every snake is diffrent although the cross is the same. I know it is what you dont want to here but that's the truth. You are gonna have to do a lot of reserch on hybrids. When you see one ask the breeder the genitcits of the hybrid. there may be diffrent % of each in the cross. EXP.( 3/4 corn X 1/4 cal ) X (50 /50 jungle) , what does the 3/4 corn look like is it more corn looking or is it even more bizzarr. this will effict how the young will look, also how many generations is the cross F1 , F2 , F3 ect. . Anotherthing a third or forth gen cross will have a more consistant pattren than a in the young . if you were to breed a F4 to a F1 you might get some diffrent results than if you bred two F1 crosses. It is like wine or chesse tasting you have to delevlope a sense to tell what is what. There is no other way to tell except for genitc testing. You need to see many hybrids and pick up the insight to tell suttle diffrence in the crosses .

 

[Drizzt80]

Thanks for the comments Vinman, but

you have to get a feel for it.

Not acceptable in my opinion. There are so many people that throw around "hybrid markers" as this definite identifiable trait. And yes, they are being thrown out in discussions in that manner.

List them then if they are so definite. If they are so discernible and identifiable, put up or shut up. :shrugs: (That's not directed directly at you Vinster.) Explain, in plain English, how a specific hybrid is identifiable if the genetic background is not known. Simple really if they exist. :shrugs:

So, instead of debating the issue, please list your markers. Thank you.
D80

 

[tyflier]

Picture of Hybrids from Vinman--

 

[Vinman]

The varibales are so diffrent in every animal There is no line drawn in the sand . this is something you are gonna have to learn for yourself . I have listed why you cant draw a line in the sand . But you still think there is a is a certen way of telling what a hybrid is . Like take a look at the pick I posted . If you cant figure out what that snake is there is no helping you. If you cant ,it is time to forget about hybrids. You just dont have a eye for it. it is like teaching you to tell the diffrance inbetween a good and a poor quilty merrlot . You can not be told how to tell the difrance on paper or in writing , you have to learn from exp by being shown. With hybrids you have to be shown on a case by case exp. Again every snake is diffrent even if it is the same type of cross. then ther are some corn hybrids that are half corn ang 3 to 4 or more type of lampropelts. now how are you supposed to come up with a key for that . the only way is by eye. Look, I dont know how much you know about snakes besides corns. I keept many colubrids. So it is easy for me to see that a snake is not pure.

I have a corn/grayband F2 cross it is a 50/50. looks like a pure alterna to the tee even has triple anternets. The head looks just like a grayband but it has checkers on the belly . Gray bands dont have a checkered belly. That was what was the tel-tale sine that snake is a hybrid So if you want to learn about how to tell hybrids you are gonna have to learn what seperates diffrent species form eachother and the subspeices. basicly you have to know a lot about all diffrent type of colubrids. You mean to tell me thast when your at a show you could not tell that a snake was mislabled as a pure snake and said to your self damm that looks strange that dont look pure to me. If not then you just dont have the eye for it . No big deal nothing you can do about it you will either get a sense or it or you wont. It is like painting or drawing or musican , you are either born with it or not.

 

[Vinman]

Picture of Hybrids from Vinman--

Thank you for resizing the pic's tyflier Now can anyone tell what they are. guess and after a few post I will tell what they are crossed with. please let drizz 80 have first crack on it. This is the only way to learn

 

[Roy Munson]

I'll play, but only for fun.

I'll usually identify markers that don't look like things I'd expect from a "pure" corn. In Vin's pics here, all of the snakes have much more extreme banding than I've seen on corns. The colors are also different from what I would expect from a pure corn. On some of them, the heads are barely wider than the neck, while pure corns' heads are well differentiated from their necks. The head patterns don't look very corn-like to me either. Some have blunt noses, etc..

Emoryi markers are more difficult, because there's a lot of variation within "pure" corns. If I see a blunt-headed, thick-headed, large-eyed, heavier-bodied-than-usual, orangey amel, I might be inclined to suspect emoryi heritage.

But my ultra-caramel, and aneryc homo and hets look 100% corn to me. I don't see anything that sets off the hybrid alarms.

 

[Vinman]

So dean you can see where I'm comming from you have to know all about diffrent colubrids and what are there diffrances that make them unquie to see what you are looking at. like if you never seen a tiger how could tell the a lion cross with a tiger from a lion crossed to a lepored ????.

 

[Drizzt80]

So, instead of debating the issue, please list your markers.

I've asked twice nicely.

There is no line drawn in the sand.

Then everyone "identifying" hybrids (including yourself) needs to stop talking in definites. That's the purpose of starting this thread. Please stop your posting here if you can't give definite ways to identify hybrids . . . If they can be definitely identified, then there should be definitely quantifiable traits.

I have listed why you cant draw a line in the sand.

If you can't draw a line in the sand about what identifies a hybrid than how can you positively identify a hybrid?? That's the point of my original post.

Again every snake is diffrent even if it is the same type of cross.

So what you're saying then is that even a pure corn could be mis-identified as a hybrid even though someone is so certain??

It is like painting or drawing or musican , you are either born with it or not.

I disagree.

Now, again, please LIST your identifiers if you have them. If not, sit back quietly and wait for someone who can. Thank you,
D80

 

[dionythicus]

I think it is difficult to put down exactly what to look for, but in the case of my rootbeer, I took one look at this "normal cornsnake" and knew by the strong diamond shaped side pattern, the saddle count, the shape of the head and the overall colour (fairly light brown monotone with thin borders) and knew it wasn't pure corn. Same with the creamsicle I produced last year. The head shape, head pattern and the eyes tell me right away that its not pure corn. Not all emoryi/corn crosses are going to be that obvious, especially once they are more corn than emoryi.

Jungles, to me, stand out immediately. The head shape (I think the kingsnake head shape tends to dominate), the tendency towards banding or at least very not-normal corn saddles, the tan and black colour (in the basic form) and the head pattern all shout out that there is king influence. Again, once you add more corn or more king, you start to lose the readily identifiable features.

I would look at all three of Vin's and say milksnake/corn. Maybe they aren't milksnake/corn, but they aren't pure corn. I think its more important to be able to say its not a "pure" cornsnake that to know exactly what the other part is. Especially for those who want to avoid hybrids.

I forgot to add that I have a RO that I suspect may be a supercorn with kingsnake in it. There's just something about its head and temperment that make me suspicious, that and that it came from a pet store. I won't breed it with my corns because I don't know for sure, but I'm going to use it for my jungle projects.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Some have blunt noses, etc...

This raises to mind a pair of Caramel Motley adults I have in my collection. They were purchased last year when Rich had his adult sale. I noticed the shortened snout and at first thought maybe they were a hybrid, but assumed that if they were, Rich would have listed them as such. I have no idea why they have a blunt nose, for all I know the stinkers push and push at the tubs they're in until they're scrunched up. I'll take a picture when I get home tonight and post to hear what others thing. Because this is a bit off topic of Drizzt's request, I'll post in a separate thread.

 

[mbdorfer]

Thank you for resizing the pic's tyflier Now can anyone tell what they are.

I know what they all are, those are all fairly obvious.
I think what Brent is driving at here are the more subtle hybrids.
Creamsicles are the most difficult unless they are F1 from emory x corn, but then again not always easily seen.
My response to Brent's original question would be, there are no "markers".

 

[Vinman]

So what you're saying then is that even a pure corn could be mis-identified as a hybrid even though someone is so certain??

No you are not getting the point. What I'm saying is that Again every snake is diffrent even if it is the same type of cross. Where did you see anything about being a pure corn

How come Dean could see the diffrences and you cant . You have not even tryed to guess what is in the crosses. That is how you are gona learn because you haven't got a eye for it yet. Now I'm trying to help you, the pic's are posted . Look at them and tell me what is the diffrence inbetween them and a pure corn . Even if I blacked out the color What makes them diffrent and you got your answer.

 

[Vinman]

This raises to mind a pair of Caramel Motley adults I have in my collection. They were purchased last year when Rich had his adult sale. I noticed the shortened snout and at first thought maybe they were a hybrid, but assumed that if they were, Rich would have listed them as such. I have no idea why they have a blunt nose, for all I know the stinkers push and push at the tubs they're in until they're scrunched up. I'll take a picture when I get home tonight and post to hear what others thing. Because this is a bit off topic of Drizzt's request, I'll post in a separate thread.

Steff, I seen it many times twice in pure local okeetees. I hatched one out myself many years ago. I dont know what does that but they look weired!!!

 

[Tula_Montage]

I know what they all are, those are all fairly obvious.
I think what Brent is driving at here are the more subtle hybrids.
Creamsicles are the most difficult unless they are F1 from emory x corn, but then again not always easily seen.
My response to Brent's original question would be, there are no "markers".

I wish I could rep you for this statment.

I honestly think theres no such thing as a hybrid marker. Especially when you have 75% this and 25% that

 

[dionythicus]

Sometimes you do find that a particular trait just shows up more prominantly in one animal, like a 75% corn and 25% king. Out of an entire clutch, there might be one that has a real kingsnake head, one may have strong banding. It could just be one thing that stands out. Overall, I don't think its that easy or accurate to guess unless its screaming obvious, like Vin's trio.

 

[Drizzt80]

Thanks Dean and dionythicus for listing some markers and identifiers. Mike what I'm driving at more specifically is that the "hybrid markers" expression is thrown at any number of posted pictures. I wanted this thread to be a list of what those "hybrid markers" are . . . some have listed others are trying to give me a lesson on identifying hybrids. I appreciate your caring Vinster, but you have no idea what I do and don't know . . . what's actually happening is that you are not-so-subtley proving my point.

A. You can't list definite markers for hybrids.
B. You can just as easily mis-identify a non-hybrid as hybrid using whatever "hybrid markers" it is you are using.

D80

As for your test, I'll humor you:
A. Honduran X Corn
B. Gray Band X Corn
C. Honduran X Corn
D. Milksnake (possibly Sinaloan?) X Corn