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I'm curious...

Wayne I agree with you I like our managed care, our choices, and our ability to access the levels of care we want. Thats what I was trying to say if it were up to the government we'd get the minimum care required and the word required would be defined by our non PHD having government. I don't call national health care plans communist, but socialist sure by definition as a matter of fact. The only problem with socialim is it looks good on paper, but because it is in the governments control always gets screwed up, interferred with, and mismanaged. Look at any socialist country, their overall resources, laws, economy, and state of the country politically not to mention the age of their buildings, roads, and schools. No government has an infinite amount of money to spend so not only do these programs suffer from lack of funds to go around and not enough resources, but taxes and the cost of living become higher and disparities between the rich and poor are even more obvious and predominate due to these factors.
 
Wayne I agree with you I like our managed care, our choices, and our ability to access the levels of care we want. Thats what I was trying to say if it were up to the government we'd get the minimum care required and the word required would be defined by our non PHD having government. I don't call national health care plans communist, but socialist sure by definition as a matter of fact. The only problem with socialim is it looks good on paper, but because it is in the governments control always gets screwed up, interferred with, and mismanaged. Look at any socialist country, their overall resources, laws, economy, and state of the country politically not to mention the age of their buildings, roads, and schools. No government has an infinite amount of money to spend so not only do these programs suffer from lack of funds to go around and not enough resources, but taxes and the cost of living become higher and disparities between the rich and poor are even more obvious and predominate due to these factors.

I agree! That what I was attempting to say, but for some reason, my engage brain button, is stuck on low gear! ;)

Wayne
 
Wayne I agree with you I like our managed care, our choices, and our ability to access the levels of care we want. Thats what I was trying to say if it were up to the government we'd get the minimum care required and the word required would be defined by our non PHD having government. I don't call national health care plans communist, but socialist sure by definition as a matter of fact. The only problem with socialim is it looks good on paper, but because it is in the governments control always gets screwed up, interferred with, and mismanaged. Look at any socialist country, their overall resources, laws, economy, and state of the country politically not to mention the age of their buildings, roads, and schools. No government has an infinite amount of money to spend so not only do these programs suffer from lack of funds to go around and not enough resources, but taxes and the cost of living become higher and disparities between the rich and poor are even more obvious and predominate due to these factors.

Very eloquently put, well said.

However, just because a country is not socialist doesn't mean it can't have aspects of socialism within its structure, surely? The UK for example is not a socialist country, but has aspects of socialism within its structure. Same goes for Canada, France etc.

Why can't there be shades of grey?
 
Because their aren't feasible shades of grey when it comes to socialist health care in our country or really any other. Every time a government regulates a private sector the little man looses out earning less and the government therefore earns more. With the extra earned money the notion in Socialism is the money gets put to these regulated programs, but not only does that not always happen but its never enough money to satisfy demand. So what does the government then do? Raise taxes and the price of goods to further recoup monies from the people, but then the people must spend less circulating less money into economy because they bring home less now. So the end result is the government having less to spend on the sector affecting quality and availability due to lack of funds. This is not grey pretty black and white. Theres no such thing as a capitalistic/socialist country and socialism never works- government ownership of any large sector accrues debt and always suffers from severe budget deficits taking monies out of the economy and people :(
 
Because their aren't feasible shades of grey when it comes to socialist health care in our country or really any other. Every time a government regulates a private sector the little man looses out earning less and the government therefore earns more. With the extra earned money the notion in Socialism is the money gets put to these regulated programs, but not only does that not always happen but its never enough money to satisfy demand. So what does the government then do? Raise taxes and the price of goods to further recoup monies from the people, but then the people must spend less circulating less money into economy because they bring home less now. So the end result is the government having less to spend on the sector affecting quality and availability due to lack of funds. This is not grey pretty black and white. Theres no such thing as a capitalistic/socialist country and socialism never works- government ownership of any large sector accrues debt and always suffers from severe budget deficits taking monies out of the economy and people :(

Whilst I agree with your later points, WHO statistics and rankings would disagree with you there. Many countries with a national health service or "socialist" health programmes are ranked far higher than the U.S.

National health services are controlled through national health insurance, yes? National health insurance doesn't necessarily equate to government-run or government-financed healthcare, just that the policy/legislation is laid down by the government.
 
Because their aren't feasible shades of grey when it comes to socialist health care in our country or really any other. Every time a government regulates a private sector the little man looses out earning less and the government therefore earns more. With the extra earned money the notion in Socialism is the money gets put to these regulated programs, but not only does that not always happen but its never enough money to satisfy demand. So what does the government then do? Raise taxes and the price of goods to further recoup monies from the people, but then the people must spend less circulating less money into economy because they bring home less now. So the end result is the government having less to spend on the sector affecting quality and availability due to lack of funds. This is not grey pretty black and white. Theres no such thing as a capitalistic/socialist country and socialism never works- government ownership of any large sector accrues debt and always suffers from severe budget deficits taking monies out of the economy and people :(

You can't have a pure capitalist society either. It's not black and white, because neither black nor white is realistic.

As it stands, the US spends more per capita on health care than any other first world nation. A large portion of the US population has no coverage other than the ER for their health care. The 'socialist' systems are running more efficiently and effectively than the American 'capitalist' system.

Which isn't really capitalist considering how much your government is actually paying for health care in the US. You cannot run a modern society without certain programs being run by the government. The US is the only place in the first world that believes Health Care is not one of these programs. Right or wrong, there's a lot of places doing it better and to ignore what they're doing because of ideological bias is very short-sighted.

Ultimately, the part I really, honestly and truly, don't understand is why people don't want the government controlling their health but they're very okay with a private company controlling their health. They actually prefer it when people who don't answer to them are telling them what procedures they can and cannot have. Hell, in Canada, and I would imagine most places, the government does not tell people what procedures they can and cannot have. Doctors do. I remember asking about how many visits to the doctor I'm allowed in a year one day when I was at the doctor's office. The nurse said the government can't tell you how sick you are, that it's up to the doctor to determine your needs.

And yet in the US, a private company can, and will tell you how sick you are.

How is that choice? Or freedom?
 
I wish more Americans would watch the movie Sicko. Who here has seen it? Watch that movie and tell me how wonderful our current healthcare system is.
 
I did watch that movie, but...

the rosy picture it painted of government run health care did not sound like the reports I have read from some people who have been treated in them. Did you all read the thread that Diamond Lil had going when she suffered some serious problems and detailed her adventures with the UK system? I think it was about a year ago. It didn't sound ANYTHING like I saw in the movie Sicko.

Some of us feel that the government is inept, inefficient, and the more power and money it gets, the worse it becomes.

Also, for the smaller health needs, people would shop around more for better prices if they had to pay for it, just like groceries or anything else. Did anyone see the John Stossel report on the health care system the other night? He really highlighted the problem well. If people pay nothing, or the same co-pay, no matter how cheap or expensive the treatment, there is no motive to shop around at all. Why should small health care needs (general doctor visits and other needs that are not likely to bankrupt anyone) be treated differently than buying necessities such as housing and groceries? It is the life threatening, terribly expensive needs that we should be worried about.

What we really need is a regulation so that we could all get very reasonable coverage with high deductible insurance, no matter age or prior condition, and maybe even subsidized for those with low income. And all insurance companies would have to offer at least one policy that was the same basic policy as all others, so normal people (who never went to law school) can compare apples to apples. If the most you would have to pay was $5000, you could always arrange payments, or become a charity case if low income. But you would be much more likely to become a careful shopper if it was coming out of your pocket. You could probably even accomplish the same careful shopper goal if the first $5K was 50% co-pay, then took over 100% after that. Then we could get cost containment and full insurance (if we decided to subsidize low income people) with minimum government interference and cost.

Yes, we DEFINITELY need change! Our health care system is in a downward spiral in my opinion, because every time it increases, more people drop out, causing it to become more expensive, causing more people to drop out. But I have seen how well the Federal government handles other programs, both small and large. I am not impressed.
 
I like Michael Moore's doc's (I'm sure I'll take some flack for that...but so be it)...but you really have to take it with a grain of salt...just like anything else that comes from anyone with a bias. I haven't seen Sicko yet though.
 
What we really need is a regulation so that we could all get very reasonable coverage with high deductible insurance, no matter age or prior condition, and maybe even subsidized for those with low income. And all insurance companies would have to offer at least one policy that was the same basic policy as all others, so normal people (who never went to law school) can compare apples to apples. If the most you would have to pay was $5000, you could always arrange payments, or become a charity case if low income. But you would be much more likely to become a careful shopper if it was coming out of your pocket. You could probably even accomplish the same careful shopper goal if the first $5K was 50% co-pay, then took over 100% after that. Then we could get cost containment and full insurance (if we decided to subsidize low income people) with minimum government interference and cost.

The problem in many cases is that healthy, safe people end up choosing not to get insurance. That would normally be fine, but it's these people that end up keeping premiums down. Think of car insurance - if the only people who got insurance were the people who got into car accidents then insurance premiums would be incredibly high. But because insurance is mandated for anyone that wants to drive premiums are affordable for most people.

Health care can be compared, but there is one vital difference - living isn't really a choice. So in this case the government must step in and mandate everyone be insured. Poor people and students can be subsidized by the government so that their economic needs are not compromised by the mandated premium. Leave the government out of it except for setting the rules. Private insurance only if having something government run is that abhorrent. Regulate the industry so that no one can be turned down, premiums are kept affordable and everyone can get treatment.

Bam - you've just emulated Switzerland's UHC program.
 
Health care can be compared, but there is one vital difference - living isn't really a choice. So in this case the government must step in and mandate everyone be insured. Poor people and students can be subsidized by the government so that their economic needs are not compromised by the mandated premium. Leave the government out of it except for setting the rules. Private insurance only if having something government run is that abhorrent. Regulate the industry so that no one can be turned down, premiums are kept affordable and everyone can get treatment.

EXACTLY! Although I don't like any more government regulation than absolutely necessary, in some case it IS necessary. Many states already require auto insurance (including here in Florida), and a couple of states are trying out mandatory health insurance (Mass., maybe?) I am not sure just how well that is working for them, but we should certainly watch, and see if those trial systems can be tweaked.

I don't think most Americans would want a truly libertarian health system, because that would require anyone who cannot pay to rely on charity, with no guarantees of access - not acceptable. As it is, taxpayers already subsidize those who cannot pay when patients go to the ER - a very expensive option for indigent health care! It would probably be cheaper to subsidize low income people for a basic, high deductible policy, compared to the way we do it now. As you said, if virtually EVERYONE is insured, then the premiums don't have to cover the uninsured. But I would also want the high deductible to encourage price shopping. AND - I want CONGRESS and any other government employees to have to live with whatever system the rest of us get! No privileged ruling class! Let them buy something better if they want to spend their money on it! And it would preserve commercial competition instead of government monopoly. I would be for such a program.

I did not know that Switzerland has a similar system. I have never discussed health care with anyone from there. I will have to look into it to see how it works for them.
 
You know in my state low income people can apply for state health insurance that I hear is very good and the minimum requirements are fair. I just don't want the government regulating everyones health inurance this is America and we like choice. Did you hear our government pushing for this would also like to keep their private plans,lol if they don't really want it why should anyone else? It comes down to personal opinion and any US citizen will admit our government is just not cpable of handling a system this widespread nor can we fund it. Population and life style difference alone make this point clear.
 
Read the proposed law if you really want to know. It includes (this is not made up - read it yourself) mandatory "suicide" council for the elderly, clauses to refuse care to those permanently disabled, rationing of care for the elderly, does NOT cover the people that vote on it (they get a better care because they are "better" than us), etc. The Democrats say it won't reduce choices but the law says ones not on it that are eligible will have to PAY a penalty for not being on it. In other words, you'll pay whether you use it or not. The law also says you HAVE to be on it unless you can prove you aren't eligible. Hmmmm, it seems like the only ones that support it in the US are the ones that HAVEN'T read it or the ones (politicians) who won't have to live with it!

The VA is a .gov run hospital, and it is the worst system in the US. They want to expand that to cover the rest of us...and they can't even give veterans the care they EARNED. The US government wastes so much money that ANYTHING they do costs more than if allowed to be done privately. It'll cost more for less if ALL other government run programs are an example.

I'm not sure where it stands on abortion, but I wouldn't be surprised if it pays for them...and a lot of people are against that here. This is CONJECTURE on my part only, though.

In short, those that WORK and PAY into the system have health care now (most of us). We are confident that if this passes we will pay more (since we have to pay for those NOT working and paying into the system) and we will get lowered care in return - even things we are morally against! It is just another case of people who earn something paying for those that don't and getting less in return.

I don't know a single American that would be against this if we KNEW it would give us our SAME state of care, cost us the same, and give out a hand to those that need it. The problem is that it'll cost more, give us less, and likely only help those that already on leech off of the American economy. Let's face it - the "underprivileged" can still, by law, walk into any emergency room in the US and get free treatment. Saying they can't get treatment is a LIE. They are also eligible for millions of .gov dollars for surgeries and other care, so why do we need more?

When will it be enough? It likely won't be enough until they take everything from those that have and give it to those that don't have. At that time, I'll say "screw it," and stop working. Why work harder for less? ...and THAT, in a nutshell, is why socialism and communism always fails....
 
Read the proposed law if you really want to know. It includes (this is not made up - read it yourself) mandatory "suicide" council for the elderly, clauses to refuse care to those permanently disabled, rationing of care for the elderly, does NOT cover the people that vote on it (they get a better care because they are "better" than us), etc. The Democrats say it won't reduce choices but the law says ones not on it that are eligible will have to PAY a penalty for not being on it. In other words, you'll pay whether you use it or not. The law also says you HAVE to be on it unless you can prove you aren't eligible. Hmmmm, it seems like the only ones that support it in the US are the ones that HAVEN'T read it or the ones (politicians) who won't have to live with it!

The VA is a .gov run hospital, and it is the worst system in the US. They want to expand that to cover the rest of us...and they can't even give veterans the care they EARNED. The US government wastes so much money that ANYTHING they do costs more than if allowed to be done privately. It'll cost more for less if ALL other government run programs are an example.

I'm not sure where it stands on abortion, but I wouldn't be surprised if it pays for them...and a lot of people are against that here. This is CONJECTURE on my part only, though.

In short, those that WORK and PAY into the system have health care now (most of us). We are confident that if this passes we will pay more (since we have to pay for those NOT working and paying into the system) and we will get lowered care in return - even things we are morally against! It is just another case of people who earn something paying for those that don't and getting less in return.

I don't know a single American that would be against this if we KNEW it would give us our SAME state of care, cost us the same, and give out a hand to those that need it. The problem is that it'll cost more, give us less, and likely only help those that already on leech off of the American economy. Let's face it - the "underprivileged" can still, by law, walk into any emergency room in the US and get free treatment. Saying they can't get treatment is a LIE. They are also eligible for millions of .gov dollars for surgeries and other care, so why do we need more?

When will it be enough? It likely won't be enough until they take everything from those that have and give it to those that don't have. At that time, I'll say "screw it," and stop working. Why work harder for less? ...and THAT, in a nutshell, is why socialism and communism always fails....

Some of those proposals are indeed absurd.

With regards to your final point, I'll reiterate what I said earlier in the thread. If socialism always fails, why are there so many countries with "socialist" healthcare systems that are ranked higher than the US?
 
I guess you have to look at what makes a health care system rank higher in the first place and then take differences in population and lifestyle into account. Our rates of AIDS, murder, drug abuse, and alcoholism are higher here than anywhere else in the world collectively speaking which is why our average life span is lower and even so it is barely below Canada's or Englands so I wouldn't correlate that with you guys having a better system anyway to be honest. Socialism also doesn't just fail a health care system but every dollar spent on health care from any government gets taken from somewhere right? So taking a dollar here to pay for something else is one less dollar another program has for use making other programs suffer from lack of funding- it just isn't health care I'm worried about.
 
I steal this line from Lauren...but it's a good one.


The government can't handle keeping the roads paved...do we really want them running our health care?

Honestly....until they get their act togeather on other stuff...this worries me. Find a way to limit the amount of money that the big dogs are making off each sick person first.
 
With regards to your final point, I'll reiterate what I said earlier in the thread. If socialism always fails, why are there so many countries with "socialist" healthcare systems that are ranked higher than the US?

From today's Wall Street Journal, in an article by Jerome Groopman, MD, and Pamela Hartzband, MD:

"The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. 37th In the world in quality. This is another frightening statistic. It is also not accurate. Yet the head of the National Committee for Quality Assurance, a powerful organization influencing both the government and private insurers in defining quality of care, has stated this as fact.

The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. No. 1 among all countries in "responsiveness." Responsiveness has two components: respect for persons (including dignity, confidentiality and autonomy of individuals and families to make decisions about their own care), and client orientation (including prompt attention, access to social support networks during care, quality of basic amenities and choice of provider). This is what Americans rightly understand as quality care and worry will be lost in the upheaval of reform. Our country's composite score fell to 37 primarily because we lack universal coverage and care is a financial burden for many citizens."​

I can call a specialist doctor (orthopedic surgeon, e.g.) for a non-emergency visit, and have an appointment in a week. If I decide to have elective surgery to fix an ankle that has hurt for 12 years, the surgery will be finished within two weeks after the initial consultation. Been there, done that. That's responsiveness. If I develop a respiratory infection and am running a fever, I can almost always see my regular doctor the same day. That's responsiveness. Yes, I have good insurance. Yes, I have to pay for a portion of it every month. At 52, with a 51-year-old wife and almost-13-year-old daughter, I choose to pay $1500 per year for my portion of the insurance. But it's MY choice.

"Some people" keep harping on the fact that there are 40 million uninsured in the U.S. While true, it ignores the fact that over 18 million of them are uninsured BY CHOICE. They're primarily people in their 20s and early 30s, single workers or couples with no children, who are given the choice to not pay for medical insurance. Because they feel they're overall pretty healthy, they choose to bet on continuing health and save the money. Again, been there, done that. People in their 20s are, after all, immortal and invincible. If they get sick, they can elect to get the insurance the next year. If you are an existing employee and get sick while working for a company, the insurance company cannot deny you coverage if you sign up for it during the normal enrollment cycle.

Another statistic that's batted around to show how "substandard" health care is in the U.S. is infant mortality. Again, the people spinning the statistics ignore the fact that infants who are delivered severely premature, as early as 26 weeks gestation (full-term is 40 weeks), are considered "successful live births" in the U.S., and these infants are put into a program of horrifically expensive heroic measures to try to keep them alive. A large proportion of them don't make it, and that drives the infant mortality statistics way, way up. These infants would be viewed as late-term miscarriages in the rest of the world, and logged in a different category. Physicians in the U.S. are required by today's litigious society to treat them as "successful live births" even though they know there's not a snowball's chance in hell they'll survive the first 72 hours. What's amazing is that so many of these kids do survive to lead normal lives, thanks to the QUALITY of health care in the U.S.

The United States was founded to be a federalist representative democracy. That means that most of the actual running of the country is supposed to be handled by the states, not the federal government. If the residents of a particular state want to inflict state-government-controlled health care on themselves, then that's their right. It is not supposed to be within the purview of the federal government to foist it on the entire country.
 
From today's Wall Street Journal, in an article by Jerome Groopman, MD, and Pamela Hartzband, MD:

"The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. 37th In the world in quality. This is another frightening statistic. It is also not accurate. Yet the head of the National Committee for Quality Assurance, a powerful organization influencing both the government and private insurers in defining quality of care, has stated this as fact.

The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. No. 1 among all countries in "responsiveness." Responsiveness has two components: respect for persons (including dignity, confidentiality and autonomy of individuals and families to make decisions about their own care), and client orientation (including prompt attention, access to social support networks during care, quality of basic amenities and choice of provider). This is what Americans rightly understand as quality care and worry will be lost in the upheaval of reform. Our country's composite score fell to 37 primarily because we lack universal coverage and care is a financial burden for many citizens."​

I can call a specialist doctor (orthopedic surgeon, e.g.) for a non-emergency visit, and have an appointment in a week. If I decide to have elective surgery to fix an ankle that has hurt for 12 years, the surgery will be finished within two weeks after the initial consultation. Been there, done that. That's responsiveness. If I develop a respiratory infection and am running a fever, I can almost always see my regular doctor the same day. That's responsiveness. Yes, I have good insurance. Yes, I have to pay for a portion of it every month. At 52, with a 51-year-old wife and almost-13-year-old daughter, I choose to pay $1500 per year for my portion of the insurance. But it's MY choice.

"Some people" keep harping on the fact that there are 40 million uninsured in the U.S. While true, it ignores the fact that over 18 million of them are uninsured BY CHOICE. They're primarily people in their 20s and early 30s, single workers or couples with no children, who are given the choice to not pay for medical insurance. Because they feel they're overall pretty healthy, they choose to bet on continuing health and save the money. Again, been there, done that. People in their 20s are, after all, immortal and invincible. If they get sick, they can elect to get the insurance the next year. If you are an existing employee and get sick while working for a company, the insurance company cannot deny you coverage if you sign up for it during the normal enrollment cycle.

Another statistic that's batted around to show how "substandard" health care is in the U.S. is infant mortality. Again, the people spinning the statistics ignore the fact that infants who are delivered severely premature, as early as 26 weeks gestation (full-term is 40 weeks), are considered "successful live births" in the U.S., and these infants are put into a program of horrifically expensive heroic measures to try to keep them alive. A large proportion of them don't make it, and that drives the infant mortality statistics way, way up. These infants would be viewed as late-term miscarriages in the rest of the world, and logged in a different category. Physicians in the U.S. are required by today's litigious society to treat them as "successful live births" even though they know there's not a snowball's chance in hell they'll survive the first 72 hours. What's amazing is that so many of these kids do survive to lead normal lives, thanks to the QUALITY of health care in the U.S.

The United States was founded to be a federalist representative democracy. That means that most of the actual running of the country is supposed to be handled by the states, not the federal government. If the residents of a particular state want to inflict state-government-controlled health care on themselves, then that's their right. It is not supposed to be within the purview of the federal government to foist it on the entire country.
I've got a 24-weeker who's 20 now and a 26-weeker who's 19. Big healthy hearty boys who had excellent healthcare on the NHS system paid for by National Insurance contributions. So I'm a bit biased there, Glen.
My contributions now I'm a higher bracket earner will go towards funding the care of others free at point of service. It's not a perfect system (bearing in mind how drawn-out my diagnosis and treatment of my back injury was) but it works fairly well most of the time.
When operations under the private system here go wrong the patients are transferred to NHS intensive care, the private hospitals don't pay for higher levels of care.
 
Some of those proposals are indeed absurd.

With regards to your final point, I'll reiterate what I said earlier in the thread. If socialism always fails, why are there so many countries with "socialist" healthcare systems that are ranked higher than the US?

..and my answer will always be, if that is the case, why do the best doctors from other countries keep moving to the US...and what do you think that means about the REAL quality of our care?

...and if it'll work HERE so well why do all of our veterans that can afford it PAY for their health care instead of using the free VA system? I'll answer that one - because it SUCKS...and that'll be what ALL of America will be forced to pay if this is pushed through. Plus, the last poll (since you seem to like and trust rankings) said 72% of Americans are against it. Good or bad, that should be enough right there to not have it forced down our throats. Poppa does NOT know best.

Want to talk about absurd points in ObamaCare? What about the part where it'kll give the .gov full access to your financial records AND the ability to pull funds from your RETIREMENT SAVINGS if they think you can afford to pay more of the bill. In other words, not only as a worker would I have to pay taxes to cover my benefits AND those of people too lazy to work (even when jobs are available), but I'd have to pay for my treatment if I have money saved even AFTER paying those taxes.

Heck, I'd be better off with no health care at all if I have to pay, anyway, and SAVE those stolen taxes from me!
 
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