I'm curious...

[The_Thunderer]

From today's Wall Street Journal, in an article by Jerome Groopman, MD, and Pamela Hartzband, MD:

"The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. 37th In the world in quality. This is another frightening statistic. It is also not accurate. Yet the head of the National Committee for Quality Assurance, a powerful organization influencing both the government and private insurers in defining quality of care, has stated this as fact.

The World Health Organization ranks the U.S. No. 1 among all countries in "responsiveness." Responsiveness has two components: respect for persons (including dignity, confidentiality and autonomy of individuals and families to make decisions about their own care), and client orientation (including prompt attention, access to social support networks during care, quality of basic amenities and choice of provider). This is what Americans rightly understand as quality care and worry will be lost in the upheaval of reform. Our country's composite score fell to 37 primarily because we lack universal coverage and care is a financial burden for many citizens."
​

The United States was founded to be a federalist representative democracy. That means that most of the actual running of the country is supposed to be handled by the states, not the federal government. If the residents of a particular state want to inflict state-government-controlled health care on themselves, then that's their right. It is not supposed to be within the purview of the federal government to foist it on the entire country.

I repped you for finding and posting this, Glen. GREAT post! I'm actually gonna make an appointment TODAY for a foot that has been killing me. I know I'll be seen expeditiously.

 

[KJUN]

Another statistic that's batted around to show how "substandard" health care is in the U.S. is infant mortality. Again, the people spinning the statistics ignore the fact that infants who are delivered severely premature, as early as 26 weeks gestation (full-term is 40 weeks), are considered "successful live births" in the U.S., and these infants are put into a program of horrifically expensive heroic measures to try to keep them alive. A large proportion of them don't make it, and that drives the infant mortality statistics way, way up. These infants would be viewed as late-term miscarriages in the rest of the world, and logged in a different category. Physicians in the U.S. are required by today's litigious society to treat them as "successful live births" even though they know there's not a snowball's chance in hell they'll survive the first 72 hours. What's amazing is that so many of these kids do survive to lead normal lives, thanks to the QUALITY of health care in the U.S.

Sometimes you just want to quote something so it gets reposted in case anyone missed it the first time. This whole post was one of those times, but I figured I would concentrate on this part in particular.

 

[danielle]

Great post Glen it makes my above point exactly "quality" can't measured as all systems work different, consider different inputs, and are based on different cultures. I do not think a perfect system will ever exist anywhere, but our system is one I consider top notch!!

 

[tsst]

...Another statistic that's batted around to show how "substandard" health care is in the U.S. is infant mortality. Again, the people spinning the statistics ignore the fact that infants who are delivered severely premature, as early as 26 weeks gestation (full-term is 40 weeks), are considered "successful live births" in the U.S., and these infants are put into a program of horrifically expensive heroic measures to try to keep them alive. A large proportion of them don't make it, and that drives the infant mortality statistics way, way up. These infants would be viewed as late-term miscarriages in the rest of the world, and logged in a different category. Physicians in the U.S. are required by today's litigious society to treat them as "successful live births" even though they know there's not a snowball's chance in hell they'll survive the first 72 hours. What's amazing is that so many of these kids do survive to lead normal lives, thanks to the QUALITY of health care in the U.S...

My daughter was born 3 months preemie. That was 18 years ago. She spent the first two months in neonatal ICU. Today she has no health issues at all. She has a 3.95 gpa, has been granted four academic scholarships and is picking out schools to visit. Thank you for our sub-standard US healthcare!!!

 

[Nova_C]

Read the proposed law if you really want to know. It includes (this is not made up - read it yourself) mandatory "suicide" council for the elderly...

I did read it and A) It wasn't mandatory, B) It wasn't about suicide.

It was a council to help people who are nearing their end-of-life make decisions regarding their death and to inform them about their options for care. According to the sponsors a lot of people don't know about their options, like Hospices, and end up dying alone in a hospital bed.

It wasn't about telling anyone what to do, or about helping people commit suicide. It was about educating people to their options and helping them through their last days.

Of course, people who are opposed to this bill either on ideological grounds, or the fact that some oppose it just because it's a Democrat bill, jumped on that to frighten people into thinking Obama wants to start killing off the elderly. It's a lot easier to fight a bill when you can strawman the hell out of it instead of trying to tell people why the system now is better.

Incidentally, did you know that the blue dogs, the democrats opposing health care reform, each received huge donations from private health insurance? I mean, so did Obama, but it's curious.

 

[danielle]

Thats called lobbying quite common here,lol The bottom line is if the Senate, Congress, and other members of government have stated they will keep their privatized care what is that really saying? America is about choice and as a democrat I want to keep it that way. You are wrong to assume all democrats are for this plan and all Rebublicans are against it- it doesn't work that way

 

[Nanci]

(Those babies _do_ survive a lot of the time if they make it here to MY hospital!!)

What I think about health care. I work in the health care field. I have excellent HC. My employer covers about half the cost. That is a BENEFIT of working here. That is a key to employee retention. I am not interested in the government's version of HC.

I _do_ see a lot of unnecessary testing going on. It is because doctors have to CYA. As someone said somewhere else, if we could put a cap on medical litigation, maybe then there wouldn't be so many unnecessary studies. We would not need to order studies of conditions that could be diagnosed clinically, or need to repeat studies that were done at an outside hospital, or do studies to prove a condition exists which isn't going to change the plan for that patient anyway. That would reduce costs a lot.

If the government runs HC, if there is a one-size fits all approach, what is going to happen to patients that come here that everyone else has just given up on, that we have to figure out and treat? I can think of countless babies who were discovered, in utero, to have conditions such as a diaphragmatic hernia, who would not be born and survive at other hospitals! Doctors in those other places tell the mothers, we're sorry, your baby is going to die. But because the mothers are FREE to not accept that answer, to go looking on the Internet and find out that HERE, we can and do routinely deliver those babies and do surgery on them and they live and are fine- then those babies get a chance!!!

 

[Snake Dave]

I wish people would stop saying things like "America is about freedom/choice" etc. Like it's the only nation on Earth that has these morals or ideals. It's not. Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for you guys and this debate, but that same sentence doesn't have to be mentioned over and over, it's not really that valid. If you live in a democratic society then it's about choice, the US is not unique in that sense.

 

[medusacoils]

I wish people would stop saying things like "America is about freedom/choice" etc. Like it's the only nation on Earth that has these morals or ideals. It's not. Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for you guys and this debate, but that same sentence doesn't have to be mentioned over and over, it's not really that valid. If you live in a democratic society then it's about choice, the US is not unique in that sense.

You forget, this country was built on those morals and ideals. Our forefathers lived under tyranny and oppression and a lack of freedoms. They WON those those rights from a tyrannical monarchy. We didn't just one day, develop them! That's where that pride comes from!

Wayne

 

[Snake Dave]

You forget, this country was built on those morals and ideals. Our forefathers lived under tyranny and oppression and a lack of freedoms. They WON those those rights from a tyrannical monarchy. We didn't just one day, develop them! That's where that pride comes from!

Wayne

Whilst you're correct, the years that followed would tend to disagree with you there.

 

[medusacoils]

Whilst you're correct, the years that followed would tend to disagree with you there.

Which one?

 

[kathylove]

You are correct that we have far fewer choices now than previously, and I see even less choice as government control increases in all areas of our lives. HOWEVER - choice has been such an important part of our culture for so long that I am really hopeful that there will be SOME POINT at which people will say ENOUGH! We want our choices back - get out of our lives! That is my HOPE - but people may have been so groomed for the womb to tomb government help (darn - I need a new keyboard with a quote button!) that it may never come to pass, and we are stuck on this road forever. I don't know how it will play out.

 

[KJUN]

I did read it and A) It wasn't mandatory, B) It wasn't about suicide.

Suicide is my term. I admit that. As far as mandatory, read the clauses again. You don't HAVE to do it...unless you want to keep the coverage. Close enough to mandatory sounding to me when they've taken out all the other options, donchathink?

 

[KJUN]

I wish people would stop saying things like "America is about freedom/choice" etc. Like it's the only nation on Earth that has these morals or ideals. It's not. Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for you guys and this debate, but that same sentence doesn't have to be mentioned over and over, it's not really that valid. If you live in a democratic society then it's about choice, the US is not unique in that sense.

No, but we did lead the path. You are welcome.
KJ

 

[KJUN]

My daughter was born 3 months preemie. That was 18 years ago. She spent the first two months in neonatal ICU. Today she has no health issues at all. She has a 3.95 gpa, has been granted four academic scholarships and is picking out schools to visit. Thank you for our sub-standard US healthcare!!!

Would you have felt as safe in any other country in the world in the same situation? Would you have felt as safe if the .gov had the option to decide if they continued treatment of her or not? I believe the answer is, "duh!"
As you stated (and I agree), "Thank you for our sub-standard US healthcare!"

 

[diamondlil]

Would you have felt as safe in any other country in the world in the same situation? Would you have felt as safe if the .gov had the option to decide if they continued treatment of her or not? I believe the answer is, "duh!"
As you stated (and I agree), "Thank you for our sub-standard US healthcare!"

As I stated in my previous post, I've got 2 boys here who were in exactly the same situation, born 20 years ago at 24 weeks gestation and 19 years ago at 26 weeks. Both in intensive care. Both healthy and normal now.
All the decisions about whether to continue care under the NHS system involve quality of life, prognosis for the individual, not a decision by some faceless official about whether to spend the money.
Remember I'm at the coal face in an acute adult medical setting, where treatment worth thousands of pounds to extend life is a regular thing, until there really isn't any hope as agreed by the medical team, the nurses and the family.

 

[Snake Dave]

No, but we did lead the path. You are welcome.
KJ

No, you did not. Blind patriotism is neither an intelligent or attractive trait.

 

[KJUN]

All the decisions about whether to continue care under the NHS system involve quality of life, prognosis for the individual, not a decision by some faceless about whether to spend the money.
Remember I'm at the coal face in an acute adult medical setting, where treatment worth thousands of pounds to extend life is a regular thing, until there really isn't any hope as agreed by the medical team, the nurses and the family.

The family and the person are the ONLY ones that should make the decision to "give up".........although I think the right choice for the person is to decide to pull the plug when it becomes hopeless.

....and maybe the "faceless official" wouldn't make the decision over there, but that IS exactly what would happen here....and that is just one small step away from some groups getting differential treatment than others...and that is what is feared.

Do that take money out of YOUR retirement to pay for your kids while not taking it out of the check of others that didn't save their money to pay for theirs? Do you pay taxes AND have your finances monitored (and potentially stolen) so you can pay for your treatment AND the treatment of people that want free hand-outs? If not, your system isn't like the one proposed here!

 

[diamondlil]

The family and the person are the ONLY ones that should make the decision to "give up".........although I think the right choice for the person is to decide to pull the plug when it becomes hopeless.

....and maybe the "faceless official" wouldn't make the decision over there, but that IS exactly what would happen here....and that is just one small step away from some groups getting differential treatment than others...and that is what is feared.

No, not just the family in that situation, I'm afraid, not when there is no hope and suffering is being prolonged. Those discussions are the worst part of my job, although often the family is waiting for someone to raise the issue and are so relieved that they can say 'please stop', but other times they want the efforts prolonged when it just isn't humane. And all the time and caring discussion to help them through the time takes toll on the professionals involved too. You never become hardened to it. No healthcare system could exist with some 'official' telling you to stop efforts. Only in sci-fi films and nightmares, not in real life.
The reality of spreading scarce resources around and deciding funding is another matter where dept a may get a bigger slice of the pie than dept b, but it's outrageous to say that care of an individual is governed by costs under the NHS, it isn't.

 

[tsst]

Would you have felt as safe in any other country in the world in the same situation? Would you have felt as safe if the .gov had the option to decide if they continued treatment of her or not? I believe the answer is, "duh!"
As you stated (and I agree), "Thank you for our sub-standard US healthcare!"

Another coincidence about her care. I was in the USAF at the time. We first went to the base (gov) hospital which because of gov decisions to minimize costs were unable to handle her care (my wife before birth). It is actually kind of funny looking back now but not so much then, the maternity ward doctor and nurse almost in unison said 'we need to get her to a hospital'. I am thinking isn't that where we are? They called for a private ambulance service (the gov ambulance only serviced the base hospital due to budget cuts) which took her to a private hospital for the care. That is where my daughter was born and cared for also. The gov run system failed to provide the care needed.