Interesting video.......

[Ricky87]

Please, do not take anything I say as a personal attack. I consider no one in this thread as foolish. I will openly admit my first few posts were a little extreme, and I do apoligize for that 100%, but that youtube video is complete garbage. I wrote those posts right after I saw it, and I thought I was in for another "NOBAMA" thread. It's just, I wonder what people want in a president?. Do they want someone who will intimidate any country into submission, or do they want a genuine human being?. War is a sensitive subject for many people, but I think sometimes we're just trying to get even with terrorism. When I think of Iraq, I think "Yes, there is a lot of problems, and Suddam Hussein was definitely evil", but how are we supposed to stay up as a country when we're trying to fight fire with fire. I'm sure there are plenty of Iraqi's who are so grateful we came, but we didn't go there for their sake. We went there to save our selves from a possible oil monopoly, and killing Suddam was just something neccassary to accomplish that.
I just think John McCain will make some decisions that will have very grave reprecussions, and we as a country are not stable enough to support them. Especially when there are still so many problems that we as individual Americans have yet to come to grips with. My own mothers boss called Obama the "N" word at work, and she couldn't even file a complaint. Racism is still very real, and the educational system is in a huge crisis. Energy solutions and global warming are just ideas at this point, and yet more and more species become endangered every day. Maybe Obama can't fix everything, but he get's treated like he's a bigger suspicion than all the things I just mentioned. All I can say is give Obama a chance!. It sounds like blind faith, or someone who is just too naive about him, but he really is very intelligent and will be a great president. John McCain just likes the image, and his words are so fake, regardless of how much you believe him. Everytime he say's "My friends" it makes my stomach lurch, because that tactic is just a ploy to win over people who want "cute, wrinkly, grandpa" to be the president. He's less than genuine, and is way to old to stay active and energized for the road ahead. Not to mention how he views women; as eye candy. An arm ornament at best, that's why he chose Palin as VP, and why his wife looks young enough to be his grand-daughter. He doesn't respect anyone, yet he knows he must appeal to everyone, so with his "Hockey mom VP" and his "My friends" technique he's tried to fool voters into choosing the least intimidating candidate. If that tactic works, than we've all been douped. All I can say is go with the person you feel you can trust, but make sure their genuine. We're at a real crossroads, and this world get's smaller every minute!.

 

[Drizzt80]

Et. al.

While I don't agree with your perception, I respect your change in TONE. FYI, for the record, in case you missed it the first, second, or third time I've alluded to it, I don't trust ANY politician.

D80

Oh, and PS. I've been meaning to post this but hadn't gotten around to it. Whether you agree with the intent of the war, or disagree with then intent of the war (cause really, who is FOR war?!), the fact remains that the people fighting the war, voluntarily signed up for the job . . . including my child's godfather and 3 of my cousins.

 

[Nova_C]

My own mothers boss called Obama the "N" word at work, and she couldn't even file a complaint. Racism is still very real, and the educational system is in a huge crisis.

It is, very much so. And yet a black man is ahead in the polls over a white war hero. The US may have far to go, but it has come a long way.

I'm still curious about why you brought up my avatar, though.

 

[The_Thunderer]

First off, "Age ain't nothin' but a number!", and second off, I never called you a fool, so if thats your game then so be it. As for being half your age, what do I care?. I've experienced more than you could ever imagine, so that doesn't phase me one bit. I did say I wasn't as careful as I should have been, but that propaganda video really set me off. No one should manipulate that much just to get a few "on the fence" people to vote McCain. The truth is I do my research, I take my time to elaborate, and I respect any opinion that isn't ignorant, manipulative, or condescending. If you still don't respect me, thats fine. I just hope you know that I am open minded, regardless of selective quoting, and I do not think you are a fool by any means. This is a political thread, and I feel obliged to express my political opinion. Maybe you don't want to hear a 23 year old speak, because you have preconcieved ideas of what someone my age may think, but I can't help that. Maybe I should just create a new profile and lie about my age next time!.

I really, REALLY was gonna respond... had it all written out, in fact... but why? You'll vote the way you vote, I'll vote the way I vote and we'll see who wins in the end. If Obama wins, he wins. If McCain wins, he wins. Life goes on. I've already said that I think, (IMHO) that both of them are bottom of the barrel, but these are our choices. Your vote cancels mine and mine cancels yours. That's the way things go. No point in arguing over it if your mind is made up and my mind is made up (for both of us, that is the definition of NOT being "open minded"). Let's just leave it at that, shall we? :grin01:

 

[Ricky87]

Drizzt, I know people are fighting honorably, and I appreciate everything your family is doing. I just wish we had a leader who cared about people that that are so noble, and who could do more for them other than make them feel they have to risk their live's for freedom. Just ignore my first few posts, and accept that I do care strongly about our REAL soldiers. I felt a change of tone was neccassary when I realized the people posting weren't as "anti-Obama" as the youtube video led me to believe. I really am sorry!.
Nova C, your avatar appeared to show Barack holding a joint, which I mistook after you went off on me. No big deal, though it definitely does look like a joint, but after your confusion I decided to blow it up and check better.
Thunderer, I've actually rep'ed you up on other posts, but we are very far apart on our political views. As for being open minded, I am. Maybe your idea of me from these posts is far from reality, but the same could be said about my views of you, so I won't knock you for it. Your obviously a family man, and you want whats best for your family. I do respect that, but it doesn't mean McCain will fight for your cause better than Obama will. Either way, I did try and stress I didn't call you a fool, but accept it or don't. Just know I am open minded on a variety of subjects, but I have a strict view on politics. Your from Arizona, so maybe you just have an attachment to McCain, that's all. I'll still be courteous on every other thread, and I hope this thread doesn't make us all unable to listen to each other on other topics, because we all have similar interests in Corn Snakes, and generally we all have alot to learn about each other.

 

[Nova_C]

Oh - I think it's a cigarette, but it's from a comic I read called Sinfest. Palin is being caricatured as an airheaded Britney Spears charming the fundamentalist Christian character while Obama is a charming black rock star, a la Lenny Kravitz who makes the main female character of the comic squeal. (Alaskan woman! Get away from me! Alaskan woman! Mama let me be-eee!)

I like the play on words "Barackstar" so I clipped it from the comic. There's also "Barawk out!" Anyway, I think it's a fairly accurate, if exaggerated, look at the demographics each politician is trying to appeal to.

 

[Drizzt80]

Drizzt, I know people are fighting honorably, and I appreciate everything your family is doing. I just wish we had a leader who cared about people that that are so noble, and who could do more for them other than make them feel they have to risk their live's for freedom.

A. What specifically indicates that Bush (since he's the current leader) doesn't care about their nobility? What specifically indicates that McCain doesn't care about their nobility? and of course, What specifically indicates that Obama does care about their nobility?

B. People have risked their lives for freedom since the inception of our great country. Why is now any different?

C. Grab any specific statistic you'd like, but do you realize more people die in our country in one year (traffic accidents, food poisoning, etc.) than the number of service personnel that have died during the entirety of fighting for another country's freedom?

Please don't feed me a bunch of garbage about the war is over oil, etc. Let's just look at it from the standpoint that our government (remember the other 535 guys and gals that are responsible for making decisions?!?!) made a decision (good or bad) to enter into a war and help a people. To be honest, the only military people I hear really complaining are retired generals and GI Bill flunkees who thought they were getting a free ride to college. :shrugs: The rest know what they signed up for and are doing their job.

D80

 

[tom e]

To be honest, the only military people I hear really complaining are retired generals and GI Bill flunkees who thought they were getting a free ride to college. :shrugs: The rest know what they signed up for and are doing their job.

D80

Have you heard me? Or maybe I should ask whether I'm one of those, LOL. I know I'm not a retired General. :grin01:

I don't know which soldiers you've been talking to. Most every soldier I served with was complaining quite a bit!!
Maybe it's better I answer as a civilian, even though I'm legally now something in between..

The fact that they've signed up for whatever is asked of them is undisputed. When they've made that kind of sacrifice though, I feel we owe it to them that we use them only for just actions. For our defence. And more so that we will be responsible for that, not just putting it on the 500 or so politicians.

I didn't join to go to Iraq, I joined to fight terror. Of course once I joined it wasn't my choice anymore and I agree with that. It's important that soldiers carry out their orders, IMO that puts even MORE responsibility on the rest of us for how they are used..

But Drizzt, JUST retired Generals? It says a lot that our highest ranking soldiers are soldiering up when they are supposed to and then speaking out upon retirement. They have a lot of authority and experience with what they are talking about ..And lining them up with GI Bill flunkies, lol, that's kinda' wrong IMO.

As far as downplaying casualties: Yes there are more deaths that aren't combat related happening here at home, but it's kind of disingenuous to use that without accounting for the population difference. I don't think you would stand for something like that from your students.. Surely you aren't arguing that it's more dangerous for us to drive a car than to go to war.

We've lost more troops in these years in Iraq than we lost in as many years in Vietnam. It may not seem like a lot of people, but if we can't justify the war, it's to many, especially if you know any of them.. I knew 7 and I hear about more every year.

 

[Ricky87]

Have you heard me? Or maybe I should ask whether I'm one of those, LOL. I know I'm not a retired General. :grin01:

I don't know which soldiers you've been talking to. Most every soldier I served with was complaining quite a bit!!
Maybe it's better I answer as a civilian, even though I'm legally now something in between..

The fact that they've signed up for whatever is asked of them is undisputed. When they've made that kind of sacrifice though, I feel we owe it to them that we use them only for just actions. For our defence. And more so that we will be responsible for that, not just putting it on the 500 or so politicians.

I didn't join to go to Iraq, I joined to fight terror. Of course once I joined it wasn't my choice anymore and I agree with that. It's important that soldiers carry out their orders, IMO that puts even MORE responsibility on the rest of us for how they are used..

But Drizzt, JUST retired Generals? It says a lot that our highest ranking soldiers are soldiering up when they are supposed to and then speaking out upon retirement. And lining them up with GI Bill flunkies, lol, that's kinda' wrong IMO.

Spoken like a TRUE soldier. Yes, they do know their at the mercy of the president, and they are informed when they sign up, but even they can't predict what they are going to be asked to do. President Bush would send over billions on Tanks, before he would ever resign to realize he's the one leading them to their destruction. WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER!. It never will be. People actually have the nerve to blame the economic crisis on Obama and the Democrats, instead of realizing it was the republicans who thought they could pull a profit from a seemingly good economy. Bush was the one who put our money in the housing market, and he's the one that destroyed our economy by waging war leaving Americans with the deficit. McCain is the same as Bush, and though I think people who go to war are noble, most have no idea what they are getting themselves, and America, into. Is Obama responsible for the problems in America, just because he realizes we're fighting in a war we need not be in?. I believe people have an inate desire to be heroes, but most only do it for glory. Considering most of America is predicated on violence, what could be more glorious than being a war hero. They could be in Iraq doing missionary work, or in America raising funds for the less fortunate, but since their is no clear direction for that, they are forced to leave their families and work with the hand they are given.
Drizzt, if you believe Bush and McCain are doing the best thing for America, than you are sorely mistaken. My final statement is that their are more important things to fight for, but seeing as how our "leaders" can't lead properly, and don't have the wit to change things, we will just have to hope America is up for the challenge. We need to step up and vote the right way. Yes, that means Obama. No sugar coating on this one, we need change and Obama will deliver. We can't worry about trying to make the soldiers feel justified in theirn decision to enlist, because their are many more Americans who's dreams go ignored. Hate it or love it, it's the truth. We need to leave Iraq at some point, and then we should attempt a world of diplomacy. No fairy-tales, just peace!.

 

[Drizzt80]

Have you heard me?

I'll be honest, I haven't read every word of your posts. I'll catch up tonight.

I feel we owe it to them that we use them only for just actions. For our defence. And more so that we will be responsible for that, not just putting it on the 500 or so politicians.

That's why I specifically simplified the situation because it's very obviously not black and white. What is "just" for one person is not just for another. I would agree one hundred percent to bring every single service man and woman back to US soil and screw the rest of the world . . . but that wouldn't be right now either. So, the "happy" medium is left to opinion, politics, and BS.

Of course once I joined it wasn't my choice anymore and I agree with that. It's important that soldiers carry out their orders, IMO that puts even MORE responsibility on the rest of us for how they are used..

I don't disagree.

JUST retired Generals? It says a lot that our highest ranking soldiers are soldiering up when they are supposed to and then speaking out upon retirement. They have a lot of authority and experience with what they are talking about ..And lining them up with GI Bill flunkies, lol, that's kinda' wrong IMO.

No, not just retired generals, but those are the talking heads you see on TV. That's why I picked them for my example. I'm not sure if I agree with them speaking out upon retirement either. I don't know why, but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. :shrugs:

As far as downplaying casualties: Yes there are more deaths that aren't combat related happening here at home, but it's kind of disingenuous to use that without accounting for the population difference. I don't think you would stand for something like that from your students.

I'm not trying to downplay casualties at all. And whether they're on US soil, or abroad, they're US citizens. I don't think it's disingenuous either. I could nitpick and use "work place danger" statistics from any given occupation, but I think that would be disingenuous. Death is death.

We've lost more troops in these years in Iraq than we lost in as many years in Vietnam. It may not seem like a lot of people, but if we can't justify the war, it's to many, especially if you know any of them.. I knew 7 and I hear about more every year.

Please, don't think for a minute that I'm making light of the losses we've experienced in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam and N. Korea and WWII and WWI and the Civil War and the Revolutionary War, and everything thing big or little in between. I have a tendency (right or wrong) to simplify things and attempt to take out the emotion of the topic. Emotion has too much impact on a lot of these political type discussions . . . :shrugs:

Hope that clears things up a bit?
D80

 

[Drizzt80]

Drizzt, if you believe Bush and McCain are doing the best thing for America, than you are sorely mistaken.

Show me when and where I said anything like that? . . . Please.

D80

 

[tom e]

Ricky, I think sometimes war is the answer. I wouldn't have ever joined if I didn't believe that.

And I honestly don't know if I am the one you want to call a TRUE soldier (as you called me, I'm not exactly comfortable with that) I left the Army (honorably however, lol) after finding it was NOT a match for me.. And I know guys who've been back to Iraq now 3-4 times and are still reinlisting. That's a true soldier.

I also for the record, don't believe John McCain is as bad as you say.. I just happen to like Obama more.

It's interesting people think these two are the bottom of the barrel, I think they're some of the best we've been offered in years.

 

[Nova_C]

It's interesting people think these two are the bottom of the barrel, I think they're some of the best we've been offered in years.

You have no idea. Canada just went through an election that was probably the biggest waste of time ever. So many people here are wishing we had someone like Obama to vote for.

History is being made in America right now, regardless of the outcome. Enjoy it. Canada just went through something that probably isn't even worth a footnote in the history books.

 

[jpccusa]

While I don't agree with your perception, I respect your change in TONE. FYI, for the record, in case you missed it the first, second, or third time I've alluded to it, I don't trust ANY politician.

D80

Maybe you will need to keep repeating yourself... One time he'll get it right.

 

[SnakesRule1234]

Ricky, I think sometimes war is the answer. I wouldn't have ever joined if I didn't believe that.

I disagree. How is killining innocent people, and people in general, the answer?

God, I wish everyone would just get along... why is it so hard for people?

 

[SnakesRule1234]

I disagree. How is killining innocent people, and people in general, the answer?

God, I wish everyone would just get along... why is it so hard for people?

Damn, I NEED to become a contributing member.

I meant to say killing, not killining.

 

[Ricky87]

Show me when and where I said anything like that? . . . Please.

D80

"What specifically indicates that Bush (since he's the current leader) doesn't care about their nobility? What specifically indicates that McCain doesn't care about their nobility? and of course, What specifically indicates that Obama does care about their nobility?",
It just sounded like you are much more confident in Bush and McCain's ability to lead our troops, or are at least more concerned with their livelihood, than Obama is. I didn't mean that offensively, but I was just making a point, thats all. If that wasn't your message, than I was off, but you did say "what means Bush and Mcain don't care, and what means Obama does?". That to me suggests preference, but I didn't say that rudely, or at least I tried not to.
By the way, Nova C, I didn't realize you were from Canada. Just wondering, but what, from a Canadian perspective, drives you to Obama?. I think it would be interesting to know, because it seems you would vote Obama if you could, which I think is great!.

 

[Nova_C]

Some people won't be negotiated with. Others can't be appeased. The terrible few can't be negotiated with or appeased. When those people happen to be despots, you have little choice left but to go to war.

 

[tom e]

No, not just retired generals, but those are the talking heads you see on TV. That's why I picked them for my example. I'm not sure if I agree with them speaking out upon retirement either. I don't know why, but it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. :shrugs:...

I'm not trying to downplay casualties at all. And whether they're on US soil, or abroad, they're US citizens. I don't think it's disingenuous either. I could nitpick and use "work place danger" statistics from any given occupation, but I think that would be disingenuous. Death is death.

... Emotion has too much impact on a lot of these political type discussions . . . :shrugs:

Hope that clears things up a bit?
D80

I edited what you wrote here just to respond to these points, I don't think it takes anything out of context..

1. I would not be happy to see Generals speaking out while wearing the uniform. In fact it would be against laws that we have in the military to do so.
When they retire though, they should in my opinion if they disagree. They even should if they agree! The reason is that their expertise is required. Nobody else understands what they say better than them, and we need that information to make informed opinions. I wonder if it would leave less of a sour taste in your mouth if when they spoke out, they were generally confirming what you believe?

2. I don't think you'll find many occupations with a more dangerous workplace than soldiers at war. If you talk about statistics like suicides, traffic accidents, and even contracting diseases that will injure or kill slowly, I think you'll find that in higher amounts to this population as well.

3. I don't have a problem with the cold hard facts as it were either.. I don't mean to say that you aren't emotional enough, maybe I still don't get what you were getting at with the "more people died in one year" part.

 

[Drizzt80]

It just sounded like you are much more confident in Bush and McCain's ability to lead our troops, or are at least more concerned with their livelihood, than Obama is.

No, you said the following:

Drizzt, I know people are fighting honorably, and I appreciate everything your family is doing. I just wish we had a leader who cared about people that that are so noble, and who could do more for them other than make them feel they have to risk their live's for freedom.

. . . and are very obviously a strong (and spunky ) Obama supporter, hence the appropriate question to ask you is:

"What specifically indicates that Bush (since he's the current leader) doesn't care about their nobility? What specifically indicates that McCain doesn't care about their nobility? and of course, What specifically indicates that Obama does care about their nobility?"

D80